Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Would you please provide proof of this fact? (Namely that Curatolo was high on heroin the night of the murder)

Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure, then, what constitutes "proof" for you. Curatolo testified that he was almost certainly high that night. On that basis he was immediately dismissed by the court as a reliable witness.

What proof would you need?

 

[Vibio]

Why is what missing? My quote is not from the Hellmann report but from the actual courtroom testimony and that is the questioning between Zannetti and Curatolo.

That exchange is originally from an article in injusticewhatever. And appears no where else.

"Curatolo: I always take drugs, so most certainly I was high that night…but that’s ok. Heroin does not make you hallucinate or anything."

Yet, Hellman says that "when questioned on the point, he responded: “…I have always taken drugs” and to the question “even in 2007?”, “yes” and on the type of drug “…I always took heroin” adding immediately “I want to clarify that heroin is not a hallucinogen…”.

Is the injustice exchange fabricated?

 

[carbonjam72]

Gay Murderers on Parade!

Mach I apologise if others have said this. I am catching up on correspondence.

1) This document only says that Frederico was identified as supplying drugs to Knox. It does not say the nature of the drugs (cannabis, E, Bennies?). It does not say the nature of the contact (by phone, in person). It does not say how this information was obtained but the implication (alleged sexual relationship) is that it was from an informant / witness.

2) It does not say that Knox had contact with any of the other persons mentioned. Indeed one can assume she did not or it would have explicitly said so.

3) It says Frederico was identified as having contact with these others through phone monitoring.

The interesting thing is it does clarify the 'amica' issue. Frederico had contact with transgender persons. This would potentially include persons of a female gender (social role) with a Y chromosome (genetic male). Frederico may have perceived MK's boyfriend as a potential competitor in supplying cannabis to Knox; so he and a transgender heavy (and those hormones can make you heavy if you don't take care) may have decided that someone was taking liberties. Co-incidently Guede came to call. Clearly Frederico will match Guede's original description of the assailant and probably his transgender hit (wo)man may resemble Knox.

I think I'll copyright the idea of a transgender assassin - it would make a great idea for a movie - you heard it here first!

'Silence of the Lambs' featured a transgender killer. Indeed, Hollywood films are littered throughout history with, 'dangerous faggots and crazy queers'.

There was a Frank Sinatra detective movie that features a forced confession from a "homosexual!", that is just painful to watch.

Michael Douglas and Walter Matthau chased down a machine gun spraying Bus riding gunman in San Francisco, who was also apparently driven mad by being gay.

Richard Benjamin once played a 'homosexual!", who at the very end of the movie, revealed himself to be the crazed gay killer, while wearing two sock puppets he horrifyingly stuffed into the camera lens (I could make that up?).

Sadly, it is a common motif. Using sexual orientation, race, religion, any point of departure from the social norm that can be used to accentuate "otherness", at some point turns to... murder! At least in the Hollywood of days gone by.

Times are changing, but these movies last forever.

 

[carbonjam72]

Curatolo, serial witness, heroin addict, Christian Anarchist, and goto guy for bigmig

It is in his testimony Vibio. He admitted taking heroin that night and he says every night.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/homeless-heroin-addict-antonio-curatolo/

Judge: Do you take drugs?
Curatolo: Yes, heroin.
Judge: Were you taking drugs on that night?
Curatolo: I always take drugs, so most certainly I was high that night…but that’s ok. Heroin does not make you hallucinate or anything.
Judge: Guards, take him away. I am done.

You left out the part about him being asked why he was in prison, and him saying he wasn't really certain why he was in jail.

 

[Diocletus]

That exchange is originally from an article in injusticewhatever. And appears no where else.

"Curatolo: I always take drugs, so most certainly I was high that night…but that’s ok. Heroin does not make you hallucinate or anything."

Yet, Hellman says that "when questioned on the point, he responded: “…I have always taken drugs” and to the question “even in 2007?”, “yes” and on the type of drug “…I always took heroin” adding immediately “I want to clarify that heroin is not a hallucinogen…”.

I really have to question the value of this Curatalo testimony. After all, he said that he wasn't high on the day of his testimony. Clearly, it would have been better if he had shot up before coming into court.

 

[Planigale]

'Silence of the Lambs' featured a transgender killer. Indeed, Hollywood films are littered throughout history with, 'dangerous faggots and crazy queers'.

There was a Frank Sinatra detective movie that features a forced confession from a "homosexual!", that is just painful to watch.

Michael Douglas and Walter Matthau chased down a machine gun spraying Bus riding gunman in San Francisco, who was also apparently driven mad by being gay.

Richard Benjamin once played a 'homosexual!", who at the very end of the movie, revealed himself to be the crazed gay killer, while wearing two sock puppets he horrifyingly stuffed into the camera lens (I could make that up?).

Sadly, it is a common motif. Using sexual orientation, race, religion, any point of departure from the social norm that can be used to accentuate "otherness", at some point turns to... murder! At least in the Hollywood of days gone by.

Times are changing, but these movies last forever.

I was thinking of 'The Crying Game'; but an example of how you need the ironic smiley. Yes I know it has been done before. PS I know the killer was not the transgender person in this film, but it was what I was thinking of.

 

[Skind]

I really have to question the value of this Curatalo testimony. After all, he said that he wasn't high on the day of his testimony. Clearly, it would have been better if he had shot up before coming into court.

Ironically, episodic memory works better if you're reexperiencing the same context as you were when you encoded the memory.

Maybe if Curotalo had been allowed to hit up before coming to court he wouldn't have remembered disco buses that weren't there, contradicted the prosecution, and remembered people in masks on the wrong day.

 

[Desert Fox]

You left out the part about him being asked why he was in prison, and him saying he wasn't really certain why he was in jail.

Let be clear here. . . .Even if he had not been high that night, heroin effects memory badly.

Not from some biased American source either
http://www.europeanreview.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/941.pdf

 

[acbytesla]

So Caratolo says "I always take drugs, so most certainly I was high that night"

I can only find this quote in an exchange written on the "murderofmeredithkercher.com" web site and curiously enough it is a repost of an article that had appeared in the Knoxian "injustice" web site.

The quote appears no where else. Not in the Hellman report where it would be devastating. Or in news reports from the courtroom where it would have made a great headline.

If anyone can show otherwise, I'd appreciate it.


---

From the Hellmann report

Seems very clear that it backs up the transcript from the murderofmeredithkercher.com website.


http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/curatolo/
Nor did it prevent him from selling drugs or making use of them himself, so that when questioned on the point, he responded: “…I have always taken drugs” and to the question “even in 2007?”, “yes” and on the type of drug “…I always took heroin” adding immediately “I want to clarify that heroin is not a hallucinogen…”.


I can't see why you are having a problem with this. It's pretty damn clear. But lets go beyond that Curatolo was high that night. Let's focus on his or anyone for that matter credibly making that identification.

Curatolo doesn't know Amanda, she had never spoken with him. She had been in Perugia for all of 42 days. She is a stranger to him. She is just another passing young student in a college town filled with young students.

Why would he remember some couple that stood across a basketball court from him? It not like he had a reason to remember them at the time of the event. I do believe Curatolo saw a couple on Halloween not November 1st. I just don't buy it was Amanda and Raffaele. It was probably some other couple that might vaguely resemble Amanda and Raffaele.

It makes sense that a couple on Halloween were soaking up the ambiance of Perugia on Halloween. They could have easily left some party and were enjoying each other's company.

But not November 1st. That night would have been quiet in comparison and doesn't match his memory of the time...only that it is followed in Curatolo's mind of the day of the people in the white suits at the cottage. You see his memory of the couple is associated with Halloween. It is only in hindsight that he associates the couple with the people int the white suits and chooses to believe that this couple is Amanda and Raffaele. This is a perfect example of a very probable false memory created by the media and Toto's need to be personally relevant when he's not..

Curatolo has a shiftless existence. He doesn't need to remember what day or date it is. That is really irrelevant in his life. He doesn't keep a diary where he can reliably associate events with dates.

I can't see why you or anyone would find him credible.

 

[Bill Williams]

That exchange is originally from an article in injusticewhatever. And appears no where else.

"Curatolo: I always take drugs, so most certainly I was high that night…but that’s ok. Heroin does not make you hallucinate or anything."

Yet, Hellman says that "when questioned on the point, he responded: “…I have always taken drugs” and to the question “even in 2007?”, “yes” and on the type of drug “…I always took heroin” adding immediately “I want to clarify that heroin is not a hallucinogen…”.

Is the injustice exchange fabricated?

No.

Now getting back to the fake report of The Questura, written with no identifying info on it, where Machiavelli is saying it is up to deniers to *prove* it is a forgery....

.... shouldn't you at least take some responsibility of *proving* that what is on IIP is incorrect? I mean, just for consistency's sake?

 

[carbonjam72]

I was thinking of 'The Crying Game'; but an example of how you need the ironic smiley. Yes I know it has been done before. PS I know the killer was not the transgender person in this film, but it was what I was thinking of.

Michael Caine also played a cross dressing multiple personality serial killer in Brian DePalma's "Dressed to Kill" if that helps at all.

 

[Vibio]

As far as my research leads, I conclude that the exchange in the injustice web site article is false.

Curatolo never said he was high that night. Not in the Hellman trial, nor in the first trial.

And the quote appears in no news reports from the court room.

If I can find that exchange in anything other than that article (from a legit source), I'd be happy to see it and have this cleared up.

 

[carbonjam72]

Curatolo wasn't hallucinating, he was just lying.

Let be clear here. . . .Even if he had not been high that night, heroin effects memory badly.

Not from some biased American source either
http://www.europeanreview.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/941.pdf

I don't believe Curatolo actually remembered anything. I believe his "testimony" was entirely fictional, he didn't see anyone that night - not Amanda nor Raff nor anyone else, its just made up goo. I think he was just happy to be a part of another big trial, and having been a super-witness twice before he was just going for the ha-trick.

He only came forward, what was it, 6 months after the murder, at the urging of the same journalist who unearthed Quintavalo, also 6 months after the fact (after he had first denied he saw anything at all).

Curatolo first said something like, "I'm, not here to destroy young people's lives", which tells me he kind of knew he was, in the finest tradition of an 'Italian are terrible liars' moment of accidental honesty. I actually believe he deliberately torpedoed his own testimony to avoid providing damning evidence against two innocent people. In his own way, an honorable junkie.

The issue isn't Curatolo's accuracy, because the event he claims to have witnessed never existed. Like the phony DNA tests, it has no validity because its not real.

 

[Desert Fox]

As far as my research leads, I conclude that the exchange in the injustice web site article is false.

Curatolo never said he was high that night. Not in the Hellman trial, nor in the first trial.

If I can find that exchange in anything other than that article, I'd be happy to see it and have this cleared up.

I posted an EU scientific medical research paper which indicates that heroine effects memory. Completely removes the need of actually proving that he was or was not high on that date. Somehow though, the paper is ignored.
Is there anything which would make you accept that he is not a reliable witness?

 

[Bill Williams]

As far as my research leads, I conclude that the exchange in the injustice web site article is false.

Curatolo never said he was high that night. Not in the Hellman trial, nor in the first trial.

And the quote appears in no news reports from the court room.

If I can find that exchange in anything other than that article (from a legit source), I'd be happy to see it and have this cleared up.

And yet you think it is wrong to regard the unverifiable report from The Questura as a forgery? Really?

 

[NancyS]

As far as my research leads, I conclude that the exchange in the injustice web site article is false.

Curatolo never said he was high that night. Not in the Hellman trial, nor in the first trial.

And the quote appears in no news reports from the court room.

If I can find that exchange in anything other than that article (from a legit source), I'd be happy to see it and have this cleared up.

So maybe he was withdrawing from heroin that night instead, which would make him even more unreliable. Withdrawal will start as little as 6-hours after he last used and will cause him to feel anxious, sweaty, nauseous, he is likely to have severe abdo cramps and aches and pains - he will feel depressed and paranoid and unable to sleep and he might start seeing things that aren't there.

Long term addicts can't just have a day off from their addiction - if he couldn't get heroin, he would need an opiate substitute or massive doses of benzodiazepines or very heavy alcohol, to cope with the severe withdrawal symptoms.

He would have been in a far better physical state if he had just used. If he had just used he would have likely happily sat on a bench for hours, just smoking and half reading a paper. If he had just used, it would be extremely unlikely that he would have been capable of making super human feats of memory - however, he wouldn't be a desperate and possibly very ill man, which he would be if withdrawing from heroin without medical support

 

[christianahannah]

As far as my research leads, I conclude that the exchange in the injustice web site article is false.

Curatolo never said he was high that night. Not in the Hellman trial, nor in the first trial.

And the quote appears in no news reports from the court room.

If I can find that exchange in anything other than that article (from a legit source), I'd be happy to see it and have this cleared up.

http://www.umbria24.it/mez-lo-show-...nda-e-raffaele-visti-ad-halloween»/31273.html

This article from Umbria24 gives summary plus quotes from the day's testimony of Curatolo during the appeal trial.

In the first paragraph is a summary of his remarks concerning drug use during the period of his witnessing Raffaele and Amanda in piazza Grimana. Down further in the fourth paragraph is his direct quote of which you have found concerning the drug he used and his response it is not a hallucinogen.

I imagine each will take to their own impressions as to what Curatolo said and meant. The court transcript of his testimony may help clear up exactly what he said.

 

[js202]

As far as my research leads, I conclude that the exchange in the injustice web site article is false.

Curatolo never said he was high that night. Not in the Hellman trial, nor in the first trial.

And the quote appears in no news reports from the court room.

If I can find that exchange in anything other than that article (from a legit source), I'd be happy to see it and have this cleared up.

Piffle. You know very well you'll do no such thing. Your posts here have been a series of baiting various talking points, and then steadfastly yielding not to logic nor reason. When pushed against the wall you fall back on tu quoque, ad hominem, non sequitur, and praising the various half-baked lunacies Machiavelli conjures up, off the cuff, in his spare time.

Your mind is made up in this case. Caso chuiso. You should either rejoin the blithering nutjobs at TJMK and the PMFs, or take up a hobby more salubrious than endlessly repeating your shtick on an internet forum comprised of persons inclined to genuine evaluation and discussion.

 

[tsig]

Yes, it is noteworthy that Raffaele always need to be pushed back into invisibility while essentially sharing the same fate.

And once again, the only real crime in it is that an American 20-year old had sex. In a college town. With someone who perhaps knew someone who did drugs and, oooooooooooooooooooooooo, perhaps she did drugs herself.

It's a PR smear campaign pure and simple. It does nothing to understand the horrible events leading to the wrongful taking of a life.

But she had sex. And the word "sluttification" comes into play because it is a SHE who had sex. In Italy. In a college town.

That's the angle that writes books, and gets films included at the Toronto International Film Festival..... witness the trailer with the Knox-character reclining in a seat on a train........

Soon THAT meme will come into view again.

It certainly will as long as you keep pushing it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes, it is noteworthy that Raffaele always need to be pushed back into invisibility while essentially sharing the same fate.

And once again, the only real crime in it is that an American 20-year old had sex. In a college town. With someone who perhaps knew someone who did drugs and, oooooooooooooooooooooooo, perhaps she did drugs herself.

It's a PR smear campaign pure and simple. It does nothing to understand the horrible events leading to the wrongful taking of a life.

But she had sex. And the word "sluttification" comes into play because it is a SHE who had sex. In Italy. In a college town.

That's the angle that writes books, and gets films included at the Toronto International Film Festival..... witness the trailer with the Knox-character reclining in a seat on a train........

Soon THAT meme will come into view again.

It certainly will as long as you keep pushing it.

I LOL'ed loudly reading your response.... this is the very definition of shooting the messenger!

I'm pushing it!?!?!?!???!!!!

Read Barbie Nadeau's book. The sex angle is the very core of the case according to her. The "sex game gone wrong" theory, endorsed by no less than Cassazione, is dependent on the undue sluttification of a crime that even Judge Nencini concluded was only a dispute over rent money.

The "dispute over rent money" has problems of it's own - the ONLY person who ever suggested that was Rudy Guede, and he's hardly a reliable source.

But I LOL'ed over your comment that it is now ME pushing this?

LOL.