Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Machiavelli]

But that is what is brilliant about it Annella. You can fill in the blanks, but they are allowed total deniability. You are filling in the blanks, not them.

But the problem with this document goes far beyond the choice of the font. It is the lack of phone, fax and email address in the letterhead as well as all the blanked out names and the specific emphasis of mentioning Amanda KNOX in full.

Such agruments by those who believe this is a "fake" are plain idiotic.
The document is written in perfect 'police talk', besides the fact that contains dates and signatures and a huge amounts of detail; it is absolutely not easy to mimic Italian police prose like that, therefore that would be a sophisticated forgery; anyone who is able to produce a forgery of such prose would be obviously able to paste an address in the page heading, so if you attribute this to a work of forgery based on a claim about such a macroscopic feature your argument is just completely inconsistent and stupid.

In fact, you can find tons of docuemnts from Quetura with no address and no phone or fax.



But one thing more that you should consider is the confirmations ex aliunde. This document in fact was already known, and publicly spoken about. It had been quoted already by several Umbrian newspapers in 2011, and the quotes match exactly the text you read in the page published by "Giallo".
Moreover, the press sources provide the names of defence attorneys of the three suspects; and such professionals can be easilly checked out. And also, the pres sources report how Federico Martini was sentenced to 2 years 8 months after entering a plea bargain (actually, he asked to plead guilty but the preliminary judge refused the plea because the proposed penalty was insufficient, and opted for an abbreviated trial).
Names and phone number or addresses are blank just because it is illegal for a newspaper to disseminate names or addresses or ID info about people who are not publicly known, and Giallo magazine obviously wants to be cautious.
And finally there is a report about other criminal facts, involving other people and also mentioning another police office, the Questura of Foligno.
So there is everythig to check and there is really no room for a rational person to claim "fake" or "forgery", unless you take the burden to prove it.

 

[Diocletus]

This "police report" doesn't impress me at all. Given its format and content, it's either a forgery or written by incompetents.

Even taken at face value, all it says is that the cops came to suspect that Federico supplied drugs to and was sexually involved with Knox. There is no information whatsoever about why they suspected those things--its a complete hearsay, uncorroborated statement that has zero value as evidence and that's why even the prosecutors won't touch it. Moreover, it comes at a time (January 2008) when these particular cops were all out to trash Knox, so its not even a credible statement.

What they apparently did not find was any sort of meaningful telephone traffic between Federico and Knox. We know that because the document omits mention of any such traffic, and it clearly would have been included if it had existed.

The rest of the document is about Federico and all of the bad things he allegedly did.

So, where is the application for wire-tap of Federico? Let's see what was used to justify the surveillance. Where is the information that justifies these breezy allegations that Federico was giving Knox drugs and having sex with her?

This information doesn't exist, so all we have is a hearsay, unsubstantiated allegation, made by biased cops, which even the crooked prosecution wouldn't back up. Please.

 

[Machiavelli]

Thanks for clearing that up.

This country is usually so serious and staid in it's official documents, that I'm surprised that particular font would ever be used.

Even so: that document from the Questura of Perugia without address, phone numbers, timbro ecc.?

I find it odd.

Well, but this is an "informativa", it is an informal doc (not even an "esposto" or "denuncia"). There are signatures, officers are recognizable, and there might be a third page with a clerks' officer stamp.
Questura often puts no stamp (the stamp is put by the Procura who receives it; but oly if goes throught the Clerk's office).

In other words, there are no real arguments. These are people who need to prove their claim if they think it's forged.

 

[Machiavelli]

This "police report" doesn't impress me at all. Given its format and content, it's either a forgery or written by incompetents.

Even taken at face value, all it says is that the cops came to suspect that Federico supplied drugs to and was sexually involved with Knox (...)

Actually it says Federico and Knox had phone contacts, maybe you missed it.
It says that their suspects comes from the anaysis of phone records, and that's how they came to know about him.

The rest of your "arguments" are beyond rationality for a neutral person, they merely express your circular assumption and bias about any information that comes from police, and your decision to assume that Knox must be considered innocent.

 

[christianahannah]

Thanks for clearing that up.

This country is usually so serious and staid in it's official documents, that I'm surprised that particular font would ever be used.

Even so: that document from the Questura of Perugia without address, phone numbers, timbro ecc.?

I find it odd.

It is police work notes included in a file. Maybe compare to handwritten notes of long ago?

I have used the same font when taking notes (not police notes ). It flows well and is easy to read. Were I to compose a formal document I would probably use a more serious font but for notes, no.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well, but this is an "informativa", it is an informal doc (not even an "esposto" or "denuncia"). There are signatures, officers are recognizable, and there might be a third page with a clerks' officer stamp.
Questura often puts no stamp (the stamp is put by the Procura who receives it; but oly if goes throught the Clerk's office).

In other words, there are no real arguments. These are people who need to prove their claim if they think it's forged.

You're kidding, right?

You're claiming that the one who advances this has no responsibility to prove the document's bona fides?

That is genuinely funny.

 

[christianahannah]

Oh dear....well, we all have our own theories.

My theory: this funny business is obviously the work of the Sollecitos.

Is Raff involved? You bet.

And stay tuned: you haven't seen anything yet.

Well I don't know if it is the work of the Sollecitos or those who are closely related to them. I will say the twitter exchange between Giallo and those who are closely related/friends of Raffaele seems to suggest they have more to share. Who knows if that is true.

 

[Samson]

You're kidding, right?

You're claiming that the one who advances this has no responsibility to prove the document's bona fides?

That is genuinely funny.

In the same manner banks retain signatures for verification it is quite certain the Questura does. This debate can be easily resolved by finding the signatures that match those on the document.
Amanda's drug test results are conclusive, no drugs as I understand NancyS and many other simple research papers. People have children repackaging drugs and not knowing, it is just a fact of life. The fact Amanda was only a marijuana smoker precludes aggressive tendencies. Alcohol is a totally different matter, and this was completely absent that evening.

 

[Diocletus]

Actually it says Federico and Knox had phone contacts, maybe you missed it.
It says that their suspects comes from the anaysis of phone records, and that's how they came to know about him.

The rest of your "arguments" are beyond rationality for a neutral person, they merely express your circular assumption and bias about any information that comes from police, and your decision to assume that Knox must be considered innocent.

Maybe I did. I was relying on a translation created by pmf:

QUESTURA DI PERUGIA
SQUADRA MOBILE
3RD Section

Perugia 19.01.2008

SUBJECT: Annotation [Brief summary]

[Page1]
We the undersigned Officers and Agents of the Judicial Police of P.G. Chief Superintendent Stefano xxxx and Chief Assistants Lorena xxxx, Andrea xxxx, hereby report as follows:

In the course of the investigation in relation to criminal proceedings 9066/07 [crime case number of Meredith Kercher murder] verified that an Italian person with the name of "Federico" would have from time to time supplied drugs to the [person] known as Amanda KNOX, also had allegedly relations with her of a sexual nature; it was then proceeded to activate the technical task of tapping the calls of telephone number xxxxx being used by the same person.
During this period of phone tapping was possible to ascertain by the telephone file records of the “Wind” company it was in the name of xxxxxx in process of identification, but was being used by Federico xxxx, born in Rome on 18/04/1975, resident in xxxxxx (PG), in fact domiciled in Perugia, address: Via xxxxxxx, Ground Floor, the same [F.] also has frequent contacts with transsexuals, to whom he sells drugs.

By means of the technical activity it was established that xxxx is contacted by phone by the presumable clients “ordering” him the quantity of drugs they want to buy, and in turn according to the demands he contacts various Maghrebie individuals ordering the desired amount.

[Page 2]

Federico moves around by car using a model Citroen C1 Tg xxxx, from the investigations carried out the same car appears to be in his father’s name identified by Andrea xxxx.

It was also ascertained that xxxxxx associates with habitual criminal characters with multiple criminal records for serious crimes in the matter of drugs and personal grievous harm such as Luciano xxxx, born in xxxx xxxxxxxxxx on 17/11/80, with whom he maintains frequent contacts aimed at drug dealing using the phone line xxxxxxx which users name is assigned to his brother Giuseppe xxxx. The aforementioned Luciano on 28/07/06 was arrested by the Carabinieri in Foligno on account of being responsible of the ATTEMPTED MURDER of his brother Antonio to whom he inflicted 16 stab wounds with a kitchen knife.

We also note that through verifications on the SDI [the State Police automatic palmprint and fingerprint identification system] Federico xxxx has been several times stopped and checked indeed with Luciano xxxx and other people from southern [Italy] all convicted habitual criminals in matters of drugs, weapons and more.

Finally we report that Federico, occasionally, seeks the help for the distribution of the narcotic substance from a transsexual, (in course of identification) having used the telephone xxxxxxx.

The above as per duty of office.

Signed...

***End of translation***

Nowhere do I see any reference to telephone contact between Knox and Federico. What I see are uncorroborated, hearsay statements about an alleged relationship between Knox and Federico, followed by a tapping of Federico's phone.

Maybe the translation is bad. Show where it is wrong.

 

[NancyS]

Well, but this is an "informativa", it is an informal doc (not even an "esposto" or "denuncia"). There are signatures, officers are recognizable, and there might be a third page with a clerks' officer stamp.
Questura often puts no stamp (the stamp is put by the Procura who receives it; but oly if goes throught the Clerk's office).

In other words, there are no real arguments. These are people who need to prove their claim if they think it's forged.

I'm quite happy to go with incompetent - if the police were big enough idiots to suspect someone who tested negative for drugs as being a regular drug user - and then use Comic Sans to write a report, I think incompetent is putting it very politely

 

[Bill Williams]

It sure looks like a forgery to me. The tabloid media doesn't really care Bill if it is a forgery. It gives them cover. It would be great if they did some followup on why and how this is a forgery and write a new article, but I don't expect them to do that. This is money in the bank to them.

Machiavelli doesn't care about this. He's been selling this story here for years. Only now it gets published? I really believe that Machiavelli is the source for this story somehow. I believe he created the fax. But I would expect him never to own up to it.

Either that or it is from his good friend Mignini, but he too is avoiding the story. He'll be the source for the story, but not an identified source.

One could go back to the 100s of posts Machiavelli has made on this point, and see how he's bobbed and weaved, moved the goalposts..... as well as actually modified his position as a result of argument....

Now Machiavelli is saying that this forgery is proof that Knox, "attended a drug ring". I am almost certain that if pushed he'll modify that claim as well to something like, "it is compatible with her attending a drug ring," which is equally something quite meaningless, except for the lingering proof-less image it's intended to leave in some weak mind.

One can scour the threads here on JREF as well as IIP for Machiavelli's long-winded theses on this, which I regard as one of his seminal bits of "proof" that Knox was involved in a murder. (When in fact, unless there's proof that Rudy was also involved in this same ring, it is meaningless with regard to the murder.)

You see, the whole thing begins its life with the claim that there is no prior, meaningful contact between Rudy Guede, Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. Knox herself said in court after Rudy's appearance that that had been the first time the three of them had ever been in a room together.

That is the claim this whole drug-meme at first started to address.

In arguing with innocentisti, Machiavelli's last known position was more of a cultural one.... remember, he'd been accused of saying that Rudy Guede was Knox's pimp, as she (acc. to Machiavelli) traded sex for drugs.... all on the basis of an apparently non-existent phone number in her cell contacts list. (No claim of any actual calls, just the phone number.)

Just watch Machivaelli vigourously deny he'd ever said that. But to his credit, he did move away from the factuality of it, to what he claimed had been his real argument all along.....

...... that he thought us all racists, for denying even the possibility that Knox would have been involved with Guede in some nebulous drug activity because of their respective class/racial backgrounds.

Even though no one was claiming that, Machiavelli got all offended that Knox's Seattle-background was being claimed as "too good" for even considering the possibility of her being linked to Rudy in some way.

First of all, the Seattle context is exactly the opposite of the assumptions which undergird Machiavelli's offence.

But for some reason - perhaps because there is now sign that after recently losing the Mario Spezi wrongful prosecution - that Mignini is also going to lose the Knox/Sollecito wrongful prosecution at the end of the day. Maybe not with Cassazione coming up, but that even Machiavelli and Mignini are implicitly conceding that if Mignini loses Knox/Sollecito, then his career for the last 20 years really HAS made him the Wrong Way Corrigan of Italian legal practise.

There's a desperation in dredging up all this old stuff. Why dredge this up now, when Mignini had two chances to put it before actual evidence-receiving courts? Cassazione has no (theoretical) reason to consider this......

I have a great conspiracy theory cooking in my head as to why. And it begins with Machiavelli coming back to the discussion threads trying to defend a laughably-forged document, saying, "No, you need to first prove it's fake."

Well, I can't because I'm laughing too hard to press the keys on the keyboard....

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm quite happy to go with incompetent - if the police were big enough idiots to suspect someone who tested negative for drugs as being a regular drug user - and then use Comic Sans to write a report, I think incompetent is putting it very politely

This is obviously a desperate attempt of diversion, quite usual from pro-Knox supporters, just showing how desperate you are to try to try avoid the merit of a question.
In fact, the only argument of merit in this is that Knox was known having phone contacts with a bunch of drug dealers at Piazza Grimana. There is really nothing you can do to make this go away. This goes beyond any consideration about Comic Sans or about your likes and dislikes of police professionalism level.
It will be really hard for you to attempt to remove Knox's contacts with the shady crowd from reality.
I leave it to rational observers to decide whether it is "competent" to assume someone is a drug user based on his/her repeated phone contcts with drug dealers. I point out that a blood test for cocaine taken 5 days later is almost certainly negative whatever the person did; and anyway personal use of drugs is not a matter of police investigation.

 

[LondonJohn]

This is obviously a desperate attempt of diversion, quite usual from pro-Knox supporters, just showing how desperate you are to try to try avoid the merit of a question.
In fact, the only argument of merit in this is that Knox was known having phone contacts with a bunch of drug dealers at Piazza Grimana. There is really nothing you can do to make this go away. This goes beyond any consideration about Comic Sans or about your likes and dislikes of police professionalism level.
It will be really hard for you to attempt to remove Knox's contacts with the shady crowd from reality.
I leave it to rational observers to decide whether it is "competent" to assume someone is a drug user based on his/her repeated phone contcts with drug dealers. I point out that a blood test for cocaine taken 5 days later is almost certainly negative whatever the person did; and anyway personal use of drugs is not a matter of police investigation.

If "personal use of drugs is not a matter of police investigation", then why did they drug test Knox and Sollecito at all?

Oooops.


(Oh and by the way, anyone why proposes an argument that it would have been irrelevant for police and prosecutors to know whether or not Knox and Sollecito were consuming significant quantities of hard drugs around the time of the murder is either an idiot or a liar)

(Oh and by the way, if people (whether police, prosecutors or commentators) are trying to suggest or imply that Knox (and Sollecito?) was a habitual user of cocaine - or for that matter any substance harder than weed - in the days and weeks around the murder really ought to have, y'know, evidence to support that claim. Evidence such as positive drug tests perhaps. Oh, wait.....)

 

[NancyS]

This is obviously a desperate attempt of diversion, quite usual from pro-Knox supporters, just showing how desperate you are to try to try avoid the merit of a question.
In fact, the only argument of merit in this is that Knox was known having phone contacts with a bunch of drug dealers at Piazza Grimana. There is really nothing you can do to make this go away. This goes beyond any consideration about Comic Sans or about your likes and dislikes of police professionalism level.
It will be really hard for you to attempt to remove Knox's contacts with the shady crowd from reality.
I leave it to rational observers to decide whether it is "competent" to assume someone is a drug user based on his/her repeated phone contcts with drug dealers. I point out that a blood test for cocaine taken 5 days later is almost certainly negative whatever the person did; and anyway personal use of drugs is not a matter of police investigation.

A hair strand test would pick up cocaine use for at least the past 90-days - so no cocaine use by Amanda

I doubt whether there was a young person in Perugia who didn't have contact with drug users/dealers, even the prosecution star witness was a heroin user - and I would expect Meredith came into contact with just as many drug users/dealers, if not more. Even Meredith's father was known to have contact with drug users as I posted previously

But don't let the lack of evidence get in the way of another verse of the great 'Amanda is a slut/witch/bitch/whore' singalong.

Also wanted to ask if Mignini is excited about the new Fifty Shades of Grey movie

 

[anglolawyer]

This is obviously a desperate attempt of diversion, quite usual from pro-Knox supporters, just showing how desperate you are to try to try avoid the merit of a question.
In fact, the only argument of merit in this is that Knox was known having phone contacts with a bunch of drug dealers at Piazza Grimana. There is really nothing you can do to make this go away. This goes beyond any consideration about Comic Sans or about your likes and dislikes of police professionalism level.
It will be really hard for you to attempt to remove Knox's contacts with the shady crowd from reality.
I leave it to rational observers to decide whether it is "competent" to assume someone is a drug user based on his/her repeated phone contcts with drug dealers. I point out that a blood test for cocaine taken 5 days later is almost certainly negative whatever the person did; and anyway personal use of drugs is not a matter of police investigation.

Mignini made it go away. He had this report in January 2008 about how Federico 'would have' supplied drugs to Amanda ('would have'?) and 'allegedly' had sex with her. Parenthetically speaking, how do you verify that someone allegedly had sex with someone else? He tossed it, no doubt realising it was garbage that would be detrimental to his case.

So this is the basis of the crap you have been peddling about a drug dealer having her number on his phone? You are the biased one, Mach. This tittle-tattle that never made it into court is a test of your objectivity which you failed. She was tested for drugs and nothing serious was found. Please reconcile that fact with the scurrilous rumour-mongering. It's the entire case in cameo.

 

[Diocletus]

In fact, the only argument of merit in this is that Knox was known having phone contacts with a bunch of drug dealers at Piazza Grimana. There is really nothing you can do to make this go away. This goes beyond any consideration about Comic Sans or about your likes and dislikes of police professionalism level.
It will be really hard for you to attempt to remove Knox's contacts with the shady crowd from reality.

Where and when are these telephone contacts? They don't appear to be mentioned in the comic-font police report.

The person asserting them (you) has the burden of showing them.

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)
In arguing with innocentisti, Machiavelli's last known position was more of a cultural one.... remember, he'd been accused of saying that Rudy Guede was Knox's pimp, as she (acc. to Machiavelli) traded sex for drugs.... all on the basis of an apparently non-existent phone number in her cell contacts list. (No claim of any actual calls, just the phone number.)

Just watch Machivaelli vigourously deny he'd ever said that. (...)

As for my understanding, a "pimp" is a person who earns money from the work of prostitutes, and supervises their activity.

This means, no way Rudy could be considered "Knox's pimp".

While a pimp earns money, a person who instead pays money or goods (like drug) to a prostitute in exchange for sex, at best he might be considered a customer. Certainly not a pimp.

However there is no evidence Knox was a prostitute; a prostitute is a profesional, not someone who is having fun. If ever Knox took part in a trade abut sex in exchange of anything, this must have been at an amateurish level. There is also no conclusive evidence Guede was a dealer (while instead Kokomani was, and was there the night of the murder).
But anyway the kind of activity Knox did concerning drug or sex is of no interest, neither to authorities nor to me.

The topic that might be of interest - not to the guiters, not toe me and not to authorities, but instead to the innocentisti and their narrative, since undermines the innocentisti "myth" about Knox's persona ("different" from Rudy Gude and "nothing to do" with him nor with drugs or druggie envronments) and context she actually lived in - this topic is her phone contacts, it's about the kind of people she attended.

It is also plain obvious that if you attend drug dealers, it's because of drugs, or at best because you like to have casual sex or "friendship" with drug dealers. And this is not drug dealers in general, we are talking about the very same smal group which Guede was part of.

Any attempt of drawing a line in the sand between Knox, on one side, and Guede or his world ("different", "nothing to do", "improbable"), that was a pillar in the inocentisti world view, obvously fies in the face of reality.

 

[Diocletus]

As for my understanding, a "pimp" is a person who earns money from the work of prostitutes, and supervises their activity.

This means, no way Rudy could be considered "Knox's pimp".

While a pimp earns money, a person who instead pays money or goods (like drug) to a prostitute in exchange for sex, at best he might be considered a customer. Certainly not a pimp.

However there is no evidence Knox was a prostitute; a prostitute is a profesional, not someone who is having fun. If ever Knox took part in a trade abut sex in exchange of anything, this must have been at an amateurish level. There is also no conclusive evidence Guede was a dealer (while instead Kokomani was, and was there the night of the murder).
But anyway the kind of activity Knox did concerning drug or sex is of no interest, neither to authorities nor to me.

The topic that might be of interest - not to the guiters, not toe me and not to authorities, but instead to the innocentisti and their narrative, since undermines the innocentisti "myth" about Knox's persona ("different" from Rudy Gude and "nothing to do" with him nor with drugs or druggie envronments) and context she actually lived in - this topic is her phone contacts, it's about the kind of people she attended.

It is also plain obvious that if you attend drug dealers, it's because of drugs, or at best because you like to have casual sex or "friendship" with drug dealers. And this is not drug dealers in general, we are talking about the very same smal group which Guede was part of.

Any attempt of drawing a line in the sand between Knox, on one side, and Guede or his world ("different", "nothing to do", "improbable"), that was a pillar in the inocentisti world view, obvously fies in the face of reality.

I think the prosecution's experts and Kercher family experts are prostitutes. Who's their pimp and who's their john?

 

[Diocletus]

Mignini made it go away. He had this report in January 2008 about how Federico 'would have' supplied drugs to Amanda ('would have'?) and 'allegedly' had sex with her. Parenthetically speaking, how do you verify that someone allegedly had sex with someone else? He tossed it, no doubt realising it was garbage that would be detrimental to his case.

So, we have:

1) "alleged" sex,

2) "would have" supplied drugs, and

3) no phone contact.

This sounds exactly like my relationship with the Sports Illustrated swimsuit models.

 

[NancyS]

As for my understanding, a "pimp" is a person who earns money from the work of prostitutes, and supervises their activity.

This means, no way Rudy could be considered "Knox's pimp".

While a pimp earns money, a person who instead pays money or goods (like drug) to a prostitute in exchange for sex, at best he might be considered a customer. Certainly not a pimp.

However there is no evidence Knox was a prostitute; a prostitute is a profesional, not someone who is having fun. If ever Knox took part in a trade abut sex in exchange of anything, this must have been at an amateurish level. There is also no conclusive evidence Guede was a dealer (while instead Kokomani was, and was there the night of the murder).
But anyway the kind of activity Knox did concerning drug or sex is of no interest, neither to authorities nor to me.

The topic that might be of interest - not to the guiters, not toe me and not to authorities, but instead to the innocentisti and their narrative, since undermines the innocentisti "myth" about Knox's persona ("different" from Rudy Gude and "nothing to do" with him nor with drugs or druggie envronments) and context she actually lived in - this topic is her phone contacts, it's about the kind of people she attended.

It is also plain obvious that if you attend drug dealers, it's because of drugs, or at best because you like to have casual sex or "friendship" with drug dealers. And this is not drug dealers in general, we are talking about the very same smal group which Guede was part of.

Any attempt of drawing a line in the sand between Knox, on one side, and Guede or his world ("different", "nothing to do", "improbable"), that was a pillar in the inocentisti world view, obvously fies in the face of reality.

Gosh, you really are going all out to rival Mignini as erotic fiction writer of the year

If this wasn't such a depressing mud-slinging act of sluttification, it would be laughable for its lack of evidence and utter ridiculousness.

Young person in town famous for its drug use - a town where drug use is so ubiqitous that even 'reliable' prosecution witnesses are on heroin - and yet according to police testing Amanda never took drugs. She must have been the only one to Just Say No!