Religion is to God as Sci-Fi is to Science

[Craig4]

Sure. Everytime a psi experiment is successfully replicated by a 'sheep' my position is supported. That happens a lot more than most JREFers realize.

And, everytime a 'goat' tries but fails to replicate a psi experiment, my position is supported.

You guys think that if psi is real, a goat should be able to elicit it the same way as a sheep does in his lab.

NOPE.

It doesn't strike you as just the least bit absurd that only people who believe in this psi stuff see it.

 

[Limbo]

You made the predictably ineffective dodge! Again!

Or, you could provide actual links to specific studies, and specific examples, instead of expecting me to wallow in woo!

Your claim, your onus.

The Irwin book was unsurprisingly fallow, rich in inference and insinuation; poor in substance. What actual studies (particularly independently replicated studies) can you offer?

I expect you to wallow in woo sir. I expect you to leave your comfort zone. That is the first step in the hero journey monomyth formula, and it is also the first step in the spiritual quest.

If you refuse the call, then no amount of evidence will ever get through to you.

 

[Limbo]

It doesn't strike you as just the least bit absurd that only people who believe in this psi stuff see it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say, 'only'. Maybe goats see it, but block it out or explain it away.

But no it doesn't strike me as absurd. Think of it like sex. If you don't believe you will get any, you might not bother trying much. If you believe you can, you might try more and get more. That is not to say you could sexually perform under any and all circumstances. There are variables that influence performance. Psychological, physiological, environmental. Same with psi.

So if I were a skeptic like you guys, I would want to see psi for myself. So I would try to elicit it. Maybe you have, dunno. But it starts with believing you can score. Like a hot date.

 

[Myriad]

The sheep-goats theory can be tested, though. Do one experiment to find out who the sheep and goats are, then show the goats the door and concentrate the sheepiest sheep for the next experiment. Now that you've got only sheep, you should be able to turn out statistically significant positive results every time.

Hmm, that sounds so obvious. Do you think anyone might have, you know, tried it during the six decades since Schmeidler's "discovery"?

Of course researchers did. It didn't work. That is to say, it didn't help to bring about any statistically significant positive results. One might call those efforts success, though, at disproving the sheep-goats theory.

Unless, of course, you start adding additional excuses. Maybe there's a law of conservation of goats, so that whenever you try to concentrate sheep together, half of them mysteriously transform into goats. Or—this one's a popular excuse—researchers clever and careful enough to attempt that experiment thereby prove themselves to be super-goats who involuntarily suppress the psi abilities of their test subjects.

You really should read Blackmore's personal account of years of psi research as a believer in psi who had had paranormal experiences herself. It's in her book The Elusive Open Mind. She reaches the same conclusions I have: that while you cannot say for certain that psi doesn't exist, you can conclude from experience that psi is useless as an explanation for anything. It just recedes farther into ambiguity and insignificance the more carefully you look at it. Does it matter whether that's because it doesn't exist, or because of a trickster brain parasite, or because our minds get in the way of perceiving it the way your own eye blocks you from seeing forever between two parallel mirrors?

Blackmore's conclusion might be too strong in one particular way, in that believing in psi might somehow help someone mentally approach certain practices, in much the same way that imagining currents of chi energy (which is no form of energy detectable by any physical sense or instrument) might help a martial arts student visualize and rehearse the correct forms and movements of a style. It doesn't matter, for that purpose, whether the energy exists or not.

What do you think a martial arts teacher would say, though, to a student who wanted to focus their entire effort on mentally manipulating chi, instead of doing any physical exercises, practice, or sparring? That would be a big mistake, would it not? Kind of like throwing the recipe into the soup along with (or instead of) the carrots and beans.

What I'm thinking, based on many conversations like this one, is that for the most part, the paranormal is as valuable to a mystic as a barbed wire straitjacket is to a swimmer. And about as easy to get rid of.

 

[Resume]

So if I were a skeptic like you guys, I would want to see psi for myself. So I would try to elicit it. Maybe you have, dunno. But it starts with believing you can score. Like a hot date.

So, it's like confirmation bias is a big part of it?

 

[Slowvehicle]

I expect you to wallow in woo sir. I expect you to leave your comfort zone. That is the first step in the hero journey monomyth formula, and it is also the first step in the spiritual quest.

If you refuse the call, then no amount of evidence will ever get through to you.

I see.

You, personally, cannot indicate the least scintilla of supportive evidence.

As I said before, your "claims" boil down to the (super-ineffective!), "If you believed this stuff, you'd come to believe that you ought to believe this stuff.

If your "comfort zone" involves uncritical acceptance of unevidenced and unsupportable phenomena that cannot be demonstrated, you are welcome to be "comfortable". I will be content with things that can, in fact, be demonstrated; with things that do not disappear in reaction to the "enlightenment" of the seeker.

 

[Donn]

Limbo requests your presence in the basement with the red pills and galoshes. Please leave your reason at the door. Asking Limbo to come to the atrium, where the sun shines, and to also bring his reason along is too much to ask.

Heads you lose, tails he wins.

 

[Limbo]

The sheep-goats theory can be tested, though. Do one experiment to find out who the sheep and goats are, then show the goats the door and concentrate the sheepiest sheep for the next experiment. Now that you've got only sheep, you should be able to turn out statistically significant positive results every time.

Hmm, that sounds so obvious. Do you think anyone might have, you know, tried it during the six decades since Schmeidler's "discovery"?

Of course researchers did. It didn't work. That is to say, it didn't help to bring about any statistically significant positive results. One might call those efforts success, though, at disproving the sheep-goats theory.

I wouldn't go that far! One experiment doesn't settle anything.

Unless, of course, you start adding additional excuses. Maybe there's a law of conservation of goats, so that whenever you try to concentrate sheep together, half of them mysteriously transform into goats. Or—this one's a popular excuse—researchers clever and careful enough to attempt that experiment thereby prove themselves to be super-goats who involuntarily suppress the psi abilities of their test subjects.

haha supergoats.

Well lets suppose for a moment that mainstream science overcomes the sheep-goat effect and validates parapsychology by using supergroups of the sheepiest sheep. What would happen to secular belief systems then? What would happen to materialism? What would happen to choice? Your choices of belief systems that exclude psi would shrink to zero. What if your remaining choices conflict with your psychological needs?

Suddenly we would be confronted with the awesome responcibility of our own psi, and our own limited choices. We would have to be accountable for our thoughts, our feelings, our desires. Becuause those things leak out of our skulls. We would have to be accountable for our secrets, because those will leak out too. We would have to change the way we live.

But we aren't done yet living this way. We have more to learn. The trickster has more to teach us. So, we are unconsciously using our psi to stack the deck so that no line of parapsychological experimentation can eliminate our freedom to create a spectrum of belief-systems, including a flawed belief system that can't accomodate psi in any form. That is what the trickster does!

You really should read Blackmore's personal account of years of psi research as a believer in psi who had had paranormal experiences herself. It's in her book The Elusive Open Mind. She reaches the same conclusions I have: that while you cannot say for certain that psi doesn't exist, you can conclude from experience that psi is useless as an explanation for anything. It just recedes farther into ambiguity and insignificance the more carefully you look at it. Does it matter whether that's because it doesn't exist, or because of a trickster brain parasite, or because our minds get in the way of perceiving it the way your own eye blocks you from seeing forever between two parallel mirrors?

Yes it matters. The philosophical implications of psi are big, imo. Big enough to trigger a scientific revolution perhaps.

What do you think a martial arts teacher would say, though, to a student who wanted to focus their entire effort on mentally manipulating chi, instead of doing any physical exercises, practice, or sparring? That would be a big mistake, would it not? Kind of like throwing the recipe into the soup along with (or instead of) the carrots and beans.

Well, as a former student and teacher of Martial Arts who has felt "chi", I would say all things in moderation, including chi.

What I'm thinking, based on many conversations like this one, is that for the most part, the paranormal is as valuable to a mystic as a barbed wire straitjacket is to a swimmer. And about as easy to get rid of.

If the stars are your destination, the paranormal is very valuable. The part of us that is paranormal is the part that has reached the stars for ages... expanding the collective unconscious and leaving synchronicity it its wake.

 

[tsig]

Limbo requests your presence in the basement with the red pills and galoshes. Please leave your reason at the door. Asking Limbo to come to the atrium, where the sun shines, and to also bring his reason along is too much to ask.

Heads you lose, tails he wins.

If you're on the inside no explanation is needed if you're on the outside no explanation will work.

Texas Tech motto

 

[Resume]

Yes it matters. The philosophical implications of psi are big, imo. Big enough to trigger a scientific revolution perhaps.

The revolution would've begun a long time ago if psi claims were true. Even before your Trudy Schmeidler. Psi has been given mutiple opportunities to sink or swim and it keeps sinking. It's unsinkable enthusiasts keep popping up though.

Well, as a former student and teacher of Martial Arts who has felt "chi", I would say all things in moderation.

Yes, you feel a lot of things. It's not what you can feel though, but what you can show. (apologies to Aron Ra.)

If the stars are your destination, the paranormal is very valuable. The part of us that is paranormal is the part that has reached the stars for ages... expanding the collective unconscious and leaving synchronicity it its wake.

In shooting for the stars, we've discovered all sorts of good stuff like relativity; paranormal whatevers are unnecessary.

Sychronicity is a song. Actually, two.

 

[Limbo]

I see.

No I don't think you do!

You, personally, cannot indicate the least scintilla of supportive evidence.

I've given you a bunch. Books, links, testimony. Would you like another link or two?

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9l6VPpDublg

As I said before, your "claims" boil down to the (super-ineffective!), "If you believed this stuff, you'd come to believe that you ought to believe this stuff.

Not exactly. "If you believe this stuff, you will help create a psi-condusive environment that might give you a peek at what you've been missing." Sort of like how a swinging bachelor pad is a sex-condusive environment. Doesn't guarantee you're gonna get any, but it sets the stage.

If your "comfort zone" involves uncritical acceptance of unevidenced and unsupportable phenomena that cannot be demonstrated, you are welcome to be "comfortable". I will be content with things that can, in fact, be demonstrated; with things that do not disappear in reaction to the "enlightenment" of the seeker.

Who said anything about uncritical? Be as critical as you want, when you're wading deeply enough in it to know what you're talking about.

 

[Craig4]

I seem to recall offering to test your remote viewing capabilities and you found a number of reasons why you couldn't. Care to have another go?

 

[Slowvehicle]

No I don't think you do!

You seem to be misusing the word, "think".

I've given you a bunch. Books, links, testimony. Would you like another link or two?

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9l6VPpDublg

Ah. Unsurprisingly, argumentum ad catarractam. Which of those do you, personally, actually addresses the sheep/goat issue, as you style it, or comprises an actual demonstration of the "effect"?

Remember that I (and others) looked at the Randin list and found but rubbish.

I read the Irwin book, at your suggestion; had I purchased it, even used, I would demand my money back.

Which study, in your opinion, robustly (and reproducibly) demonstrates the "effect"?

Your claim, your onus.

Not exactly. "If you believe this stuff, you ¹will help create a ²psi-condusive environment that ³might give you a peek at what you've been ⁴missing."

1. Weak-weasel wilbur. If the "effect" exists, my attitude about the result is immaterial; if the effect is "attitude-dependent", you are, in fact, claiming that it cannot be investigatged unless the investigator already believes in it. For contrast, see "phlogiston".

2. Unsupported woo!-claim. If the investigator has to "create", or "foster", a woo!-positive mindset, you really are just saying that one cannot be convinced of the existence of the effect unless one believes in it, a priori.

(2a. No such has been, nor can be, demonstrated to exist. You've been talking to too many unsuccessful dowsers.)

3. Weak-weasel Wilbur. "If you believe it's there, you might be able to find it."

4. One cannot be "missing" what cannot be demonstrated to exist, unless, of course, one believes one is missing it.

Who said anything about uncritical? Be as critical as you want, when you're wading deeply enough in it to know what you're talking about.

Alright. Which single study, which reproducible result, which successfully-repeated experiment, represents, in your opinion, the best evidence?

 

[Limbo]

I seem to recall offering to test your remote viewing capabilities and you found a number of reasons why you couldn't. Care to have another go?

If evidence of remote viewing is all it takes to overcome your skepticism, then why are you still a skeptic? There is plenty of evidence, even supergoat Richard Wiseman admits it. The problem is, people are using double-standards. There is a super-high standard of evidence for parapsychology, and a nice normal standard for mainstream science. It's basically philosophical prejudice; taboo.

 

[Limbo]

Alright. Which single study, which reproducible result, which successfully-repeated experiment, represents, in your opinion, the best evidence?

There's a lot to choose from, but I think time-travelling porn is pretty cool.

 

[Limbo]

Ok so just to wrap it up. The relationship between religion and mysticism is like that of sci-fi and science. The paranormal and the monomyth tie them all together. Space-age culture is immersed in a mythology it can't see, like how they say the fish is the last to discover water.

This modern mythology isn't so different from the ones of the past. The essence is there, waiting to be discovered. It just wears spandex now.

'All religions, all this singing,
one song.

The differences are just illusion and vanity.' -Rumi

 

[Limbo]

So maybe you're asking what can the paranormal and the monomyth do for me. Well, pretty much what they did for Clark Kent but on a much less exaggerated scale.

The Superhero's Mythic Journey:
Death and the Heroic Cycle in Superman

By Mark D. Stucky

Abstract

Superman, the original superhero, is a culmination of the great mythic heroes of the past. The hero's journey, a recurring cycle of events in mythology, is described by Joseph Campbell. The three acts in Superman: The Movie portray a complex calling to the superhero's role, consisting of three distinct calls and journeys. Each of the three stages includes the death of someone close to him, different symbols of his own death and resurrection, and different experiences of atonement with a father figure. Analyzing these mythic cycles bestows the viewer with a heroic "elixir.”

[...]

If you put yourself on the path of the hero journey, you will find the heroic "elixer". The archetypes will see to that. But it will cost you. If you can't pay the price, take the blue pill.

 

[Myriad]

I wouldn't go that far! One experiment doesn't settle anything.

Who said "one experiment?" Practically every parapsychology research program did that, from the fifties at least through the eighties. They were working on the "talent" model, that is, that some individuals had talents for psi the way some have talents for athletics. Whole projects were instituted to identify talented ESPers, remote viewers, and so forth.

It didn't help.

Well lets suppose for a moment that mainstream science overcomes the sheep-goat effect and validates parapsychology by using supergroups of the sheepiest sheep. What would happen to secular belief systems then? What would happen to materialism? What would happen to choice? Your choices of belief systems that exclude psi would shrink to zero. What if your remaining choices conflict with your psychological needs?

Probably the same things that happened to people whose psychological needs required believing that the earth was the center of the universe, disease was caused by imbalances in the humors, or the function of the brain was to filter blood, when their choices of belief systems that excluded a rotating earth, germs, and a blood-filtering brain shrank to zero. That is to say, not a whole lot, and if a Pope here or there did make a fuss about it, too bad for them.

Why would materialism or choice be affected? Much of human cognition is already known to be computational rather than directly material; psi, if demonstrated, could easily be in that category. All we'd have would be a known phenomenon with an unknown cause, something that science routinely deals with.

And needing to preserve a mistaken materialism for some additional length of time makes no sense historically. Philosophers wrestled for aeons about questions like how can you think about an apple without an apple actually being there, and coming up with absurd explanations such as thinking about an apple must involve an actual apple in a spiritual dimension, seen using a spiritual inner eye. Not too long ago, knowing so little about computation made materialism almost impossible to fathom; how could mere matter think or feel? If materialism is something that our collective undead brain parasites are working toward us getting get rid of, why did it ever arise in the first place, and why has it become more viable and increasingly popular for decades now?

If there is a plan, it's quite clearly headed in the opposite direction from what you're predicting. Maybe the increased success of materialism means the CUDBPs have been trying to get you to see that the psi hypothesis is holding you back.

Suddenly we would be confronted with the awesome responcibility of our own psi, and our own limited choices. We would have to be accountable for our thoughts, our feelings, our desires. Becuause those things leak out of our skulls. We would have to be accountable for our secrets, because those will leak out too. We would have to change the way we live.

No we wouldn't. How do you feel about being confronted with the awesome responsibility of your own carbon dioxide exhalation? If psi is a continuous unconscious emanation that everyone produces, well, so is CO₂. Why would anyone feel guilty or ashamed of it? Do you feel an awesome responsibility about breathing? I pretty much ignore it myself, unless it becomes a problem (in which case, by the way, knowing how it works makes it much more likely to avoid or survive asphyxiation or CO₂ accumulation hazards than people were when they thought breathing was about drawing aetherial spirits into the body).

You suggested yourself that psi is a rare phenomenon, difficult or unreliable to use at best. Meanwhile, our thoughts, feelings, and desires already "leak out" (even when we don't want them to or realize they are) in ways that are far more reliable than any psi experiment has indicated for psi communication. That's one reason careful controls on psi experiments are needed, because such things as facial expressions, unconscious body postures and movements, and voice tones can leak information about what a researcher is hoping or expecting a subject to say. Why do you think ESP experiments where the receiver can see the sender's face as he or she concentrates on the card have more hits than identical ones where the sender is concealed? Either psi is blocked by a thin paper sheet, or faces can convey more complex information than we're consciously aware of. Which do you think is more likely?

If the stars are your destination, the paranormal is very valuable. The part of us that is paranormal is the part that has reached the stars for ages... expanding the collective unconscious and leaving synchronicity it its wake.

I thought from a few posts ago that you aspired to become an undead brain parasite. (That is, a part of the collective consciousness living on as part of our physical being.) How does that get you to the stars?

 

[Limbo]

Who said "one experiment?" Practically every parapsychology research program did that, from the fifties at least through the eighties. They were working on the "talent" model, that is, that some individuals had talents for psi the way some have talents for athletics. Whole projects were instituted to identify talented ESPers, remote viewers, and so forth.

It didn't help.

Yes, sorry I misunderstood you when you said, "Do one experiment to find out who the sheep and goats are".

Why would materialism or choice be affected? Much of human cognition is already known to be computational rather than directly material; psi, if demonstrated, could easily be in that category. All we'd have would be a known phenomenon with an unknown cause, something that science routinely deals with.

Because if parapsychology were to become validated by mainstream science, then shortly after that we would all find ourselves knowing everything that every other mind on the planet knows. Feeling everything that every other person feels. Science knows enough about psi to make that so, thanks to Dr Persinger. The only thing really holding it back is the taboo in science against parapsychology. Taboo is a kind of boundary-marker. Boundary markers are in the domain of the trickster archetype.

Maybe the work of Dr Persinger is the solution to our problems. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it would break us. Maybe that's why the archetypes of the collective unconscious won't let science get its hands on psi.

I thought from a few posts ago that you aspired to become an undead brain parasite. (That is, a part of the collective consciousness living on as part of our physical being.) How does that get you to the stars?

Undead brain parasites is not a metaphor I would choose for the archetypes of the collective unconscious. Think of them as your own inner Justice League. Unfortunately, it comes with a Legion of Doom. Quit trying to Doom us, yo!

Our psi gets us to the stars because the stars are within its reach. We have projected the archetypes of the collective unconscious into them. Where they go, we go because they are a part of us, and we of them.

 

[Myriad]

Yes, sorry I misunderstood you when you said, "Do one experiment to find out who the sheep and goats are".

Ah, I see. Bad (unclear) wording on my part. The point is, looking for psi-talented subjects was the first step in many parapsychology projects. Concentrating the sheep and removing the goats would be a rather obvious thing to try, would it not? If you were testing to see whether it's possible for a human being to outrun a bear, you'd start by recruiting people who can run fast, wouldn't you?

(Author's note: Outrunning a bear was the only suitable example generated by allowing Google-complete on the words "can a human being...". Those who wish to maintain any faith in humanity should not check the other auto-complete answers listed.)

Because if parapsychology were to become validated by mainstream science, then shortly after that we would all find ourselves knowing everything that every other mind on the planet knows. Feeling everything that every other person feels.

Why? Nuclear fission has long been validated by mainstream science, but we don't all have nuclear-powered cars. Germ theory has long been validated by mainstream science, but people still die of diseases by the hundreds of millions.

Science knows enough about psi to make that so, thanks to Dr Persinger. The only thing really holding it back is the taboo in science against parapsychology. Taboo is a kind of boundary-marker. Boundary markers are in the domain of the trickster archetype.

Not really. You're assuming Dr. Persinger is correct about his ELF theory. Maybe the trickster has him (and you too) on a wild goose chase. But if he were correct about it and could build the technology, the trickster could no more stop him from making strong psi communication work than it could stop Galileo from looking through his telescope or Bell from talking on the phone or Oppenheimer from detonating fission bombs.

As for knowing anything that anyone else knows, we already have several devices for that (provided they're willing to tell us), primarily speech and writing. Of course, as with the absent nuclear-powered cars, making something possible and making something happen in any given case aren't even close to the same thing.

Maybe the work of Dr Persinger is the solution to our problems. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it would break us. Maybe that's why the archetypes of the collective unconscious won't let science get its hands on psi.

What good are all these unlikely maybes depending on other unlikely maybes? Maybe God is one of us. Just a stranger on the bus. Maybe the earth is surrounded by invisible alien battle fleets sent to put an end to all Sharknado movies, and the inevitable making of Sharknado 3 will bring about the end of the world.

Undead brain parasites is not a metaphor I would choose for the archetypes of the collective unconscious. Think of them as your own inner Justice League.

If they're "my own" then they're not "collective."

Well, okay. I admit I used a deliberately provocative description. One, however, that is essentially accurate, since you said you considered the collective unconscious to be part of our physical being (i.e. our brains, since I'm pretty sure you didn't mean our kidneys) and that you expect to continue on after death (undead) by "tapping into" it and "making a home there" (like a parasitic beetle in a tree, say).

I'll tell you what and where the collective unconscious is. But first we have to consider where you (and me, and everyone) come from. You didn't come from your genes and your biochemistry. Although those were necessary for you to become you, they weren't sufficient. You wouldn't be the same you if you'd been switched at birth and raised in a logging camp in Siberia, say.

And you didn't come down from the astral plane of thetan unicorn angels as magic spirit version of a Star Trek gas-sparkly alien with a copy of your Karma Report taped to your non-corporeal wrist, to operate your body as a puppet until you're done with it.

I think you probably agree with both of those, right?

But, then, where did you come from? Mostly, what you are is an impression, built up over the years of your life, of the world. Of all the parts of the world you've experienced, directly or indirectly. Your brain is (as all working human brains are evolved to be) a medium for forming and holding such an impression. And by "impression" I don't just mean understanding or appreciation ("what is your impression of this painting?") but impression like a coin die makes on a metal disc or a printing press makes on a sheet of paper. Our brains evolved to form impressions of the world, not as part of some cosmic self-improvement plan, but because doing so helps our bodies negotiate and survive that world.

The disc or paper don't start out pure or blank; your genetic heritage is on there. But the impression of the world is most of what you think of as you.

The good news is, you get to return the favor to the world. Your presence and all your actions make an impression on the world, including on all the other people, who are impressions of the world that include you.

That's what the collective unconscious is. The world. No big mystery, no abstract alternative planes of existence, "just" the world.

And that's what you leave when you die. That impression, on the world.

And if that doesn't seem like enough of an afterlife, you're missing the point. An impression is what you are, so if an impression is what you'll be, what's the loss? All the rest is distractions and vanity.