Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vibio]

Vibio,

However, as many of us noted, this stain can be dated.

Ok... so far so good. That is what I asked: "Can the stain be dated".

Guede's shoe treads are there, and I quoted a passage directly from Vinci's report, showing Vinci's conclusions with respect to the type of shoe. It seems that Vinci dates the stain by means of the treads.

Your interpretation. Fine.

Although Vinci says clearly in summing up his discussion about the stain., in conclusion., the stain "allo stato" can't be dated. That's what he (Vinci ) says. Maybe Vinci is an idiot. Who knows... but that's what he says in his summing up of the discussion about the stain: it can't be dated.

In addition, if the stain has Rudy's DNA, the the fact that he had not been to the cottage before effectively dates the state, as several of us, including me, also pointed out.

If with testing for DNA and Rudy's were found, it could "effectively" date the stain, fine. And I've made no argument there.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Vibio,
Can you do me, and other English language speakers a favor
and give us a proper Italian to English translation of what Professor Halkides posted below that Professor Vinci stated? 1 not translated by a machine?

Thanks, RW
Los Angeles

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The Vinci report used Guede's shoe print

From Professor Vinci's report, "Tenuto conto di queste elementari nozioni di
fisiologia dell’eiaculazione riteniamo motivatamente che le macchie in oggetto siano in rapporto proprio con questo meccanismo. In questo senso depone infatti:
- la sovrapposizione delle macchie;
- la diversa ampiezza di queste. In base alla grandezza decrescente delle macchie, potrebbe inoltre ipotizzarsi il seguente ordine di apposizione: 4 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 2"

A machine translation is: "Taking into account these elementary notions of
Physiology of ejaculation we justifiably that the spots in the object are appropriate to their with this mechanism. In fact, this view is supported:
- The overlap of the spots;
- The different sizes of these. According to the decreasing size of the spots, could
also be envisaged in the following order of affixing: 4-5 - 3 - 1-2"

Another portion of his report (the one I posted yesterday) reads:

"La morfologia di queste tracce (evidenziate con il Crimescope), rappresentano con sufficiente definizione una particolarità della parte plantare delle suola della scarpa di sinistra di marca Nike modello Outbreak 2 taglia 44,5, che abbiamo utilizzato per altre nostre indagini. La sovrapposizione delle tracce con la suola è fortemente dimostrativa al riguardo:"

A machine translation is:

"The morphology of these traces (Highlighted by the Crimescope) represent with sufficient a definition particularities of part of the plantar sole of the shoe Left Brand Nike model Outbreak 2 size 44.5, we have used for other our investigations. The overlap Tracks with sole is strongly demonstration to about:"

Professor Vinci dated the stain by means of Guede's shoe print. And he clearly is treating the five zones he found with the Crimescope as being created from Guede's ejaculation. No amount of quoting selectively or hand-waving can get around that.

 

[Desert Fox]

If with testing for DNA and Rudy's were found, it could "effectively" date the stain, fine. And I've made no argument there.

Lets assume that they tested it. . . .
Assume ti came back as Guede? Would that change you position?
Several of us have argued that if if came back as Sollecito, it would change our position.

Even worse, let us say that we found out that it had been tested and suppressed (and it turns out to be Guede), how would that change your position?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Vinci report on the correspondence between stain and shoe print

Your interpretation. Fine.

No, Professor Vinci's interpretation (pp. 23-25), a portion of which I quoted twice in the last two days. When Professor Vinci said that the tracks cannot be dated, he is referring to the fact that there is no test that provides the date. It really is quite simple.

 

[RWVBWL]

The way I see it, she was lying on her left side after the assault, right by the wardrobe. He took the duvet off the bed and laid it on as much of the floor as was accessible. Then he rolled her over on her back, on top of it. That's how come her right arm and right leg look the way they do. At some juncture, he also undressed her, and tried to mop up blood on the part of the floor he could not cover with the duvet. And he did all this because he wanted to sexually assault her but was put off by all the blood.

Hi AngloLawyer,
I agree mostly with your scenario,
but how do you reconcile the fact that Meredith had her bra on when stabbed so horribly in her throat, (which got those blood droplets on her bra she was still wearing), with the fact that her bra clasp, (which we believe was not cut off, but ripped off when Rudy pulled her by it)was found underneath Meredith's semen stained pillow, which she lay upon in death, covered by her own duvet?

You post seems to suggest that you believe that Rudy Guede stopped his sexual assault and went into Meredith's bathroom after he stabbed her, to fetch towels and clean himself up, before he tried to finish sexually assaulting of her by having orgasmic ejaculation, is this right? Are there any of Rudy Guede's bloody shoe imprints on the floor underneath her bluejeans or underwear?
Thanks for your input,
RW


PS-Hi LashL,
Thanks for the warning,
I don't know why I was bein' soooo mean to you know who,
but I'll behave better today! RW

 

[NotEvenWrong]

stilicho - Really ?

This is a perfect example of the weakness of the standard PGP argument

We skeptics are busy here thoroughly examining [for the 437th time] a vital topic --
The 'forensic' minutiae concerning the murder victims genitalia/crotch area etc and what do you post.

A topical (as regards the english language media) reference to what appears to the latest salvo from the Sollecito family.

This is a skeptics thread - we don't need any reference to current topics, thank you very much.

Now, have we discussed vaginal contusions recently ?

Totes! Who needs to evaluate the strength of the physical evidence to estimate the probability Foxy Knoxy decided to randomly get involved in a murder orgy, when you can just look at made up tabloid anti-Knox smear pieces and gossip about Amanda's sex life like a bunch of 16 year old school girls?

 

[Vibio]

From Vinci's report in his conclusion about the stain

"IN DEFINITIVA PERCIO’ (Therefore in conclusion)

There are 4 bullet points. The second one is the following:

"- non è possibile allo stato la datazione delle tracce."

If "he is referring to the fact that there is no test that provides the date"...fine, but he gives no such explanation. He only says that "in conclusion" the stain can't be dated.

If it is a fact that one of those stains is a track of the shoe print then it can easily without question be dated to that evening. There is nothing to "infer".

 

[anglolawyer]

Stilicho

What is your definition of 'credible source'? I think mine might be different. Amanda's hair was tested for drugs. Maybe NancyS could tell us whether and over what sort of period use of cocaine would be revealed by such a test.

What I do not find credible at all is that, if it were true that Amanda was consuming her savings by buying drugs, the authorities could not have got the evidence to prove it. We know they were desperate for mud-slinging material on account of the noise ticket affair so it is not credible (my definition) that they missed this obvious, easily-investigated and fruitful line of enquiry.

 

[acbytesla]

Interestingly they promote the new movie as being dialogue free, and I totally understand that this will not do it for you, a dedicated conversationalist.
Bear baiting from wiki

Bear-baiting was popular in England until the nineteenth century. From the sixteenth century, many bears were maintained for baiting. In its best-known form, arenas for this purpose were called bear-gardens, consisting of a circular high fenced area, the "pit", and raised seating for spectators. A post would be set in the ground towards the edge of the pit and the bear chained to it, either by the leg or neck. A number of well-trained hunting dogs, usually Old English Bulldog, would then be set on it, being replaced as they got tired or were wounded or killed.

I hope no one from the dark side imagines their participation in this sport.

Is that "bear gardens" or "beer gardens"?

Thanks for the info. Me either.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Integration of the crimescope print with the other prints

"IN DEFINITIVA PERCIO" is on page 22 of his report. Pages 23-25 show the correspondence between the stain and the shoe print. Here is the text from p. 26:

"Questa traccia (evidenziata con il Crimescope), ad integrazione della nostra consulenza sulle orme sul cuscino) deve quindi essere messa in relazione ad una quinta apposizione (orma n.3) di una porzione della parte plantare di una suola di una scarpa di sinistra,
marca Nike modello Outbreak 2."

machine translation:

"This track (highlighted with Crimescope), for integration in the footsteps of our advice on the pillow) should be placed in relation to a fifth affixing (footprint n.3) of a portion of the plantar part of a sole of a shoe to the left, brand Nike Outbreak 2 model."

 

[Vibio]

There is no need to post this over and over again. I read it, in it's original Italian when the link was posted.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Stilicho

What is your definition of 'credible source'? I think mine might be different. Amanda's hair was tested for drugs. Maybe NancyS could tell us whether and over what sort of period use of cocaine would be revealed by such a test.

What I do not find credible at all is that, if it were true that Amanda was consuming her savings by buying drugs, the authorities could not have got the evidence to prove it. We know they were desperate for mud-slinging material on account of the noise ticket affair so it is not credible (my definition) that they missed this obvious, easily-investigated and fruitful line of enquiry.

The best thing about people like stilicho is that they believe the absolute top scientists in the field of forensic science like Gill and Budowle are all incompetent and can't be trusted. Yet tabloid yellow journal sources are reliable sources of information, proving Amanda is a she-devil whore.

I honestly don't know how these people function on a day-to-day basis.

 

[Desert Fox]

The best thing about people like stilicho is that they believe the absolute top scientists in the field of forensic science like Gill and Budowle are all incompetent and can't be trusted. Yet tabloid yellow journal sources are reliable sources of information, proving Amanda is a she-devil whore.

I honestly don't know how these people function on a day-to-day basis.

As far as global warming, 95% to 98% of climate scientists argue that global warming is real. It does not stop people from going to Fox News and believing them instead of the scientists

We probably have Skeptics on this board who choose Steve Milloy of "Junk Science" over climate scientists.

 

[acbytesla]

Ok... so far so good. That is what I asked: "Can the stain be dated".

Your interpretation. Fine.

Although Vinci says clearly in summing up his discussion about the stain., in conclusion., the stain "allo stato" can't be dated. That's what he (Vinci ) says. Maybe Vinci is an idiot. Who knows... but that's what he says in his summing up of the discussion about the stain: it can't be dated.

If with testing for DNA and Rudy's were found, it could "effectively" date the stain, fine. And I've made no argument there.

I would say this. Ordinarily, the semen stains can not be dated. Which is what I think Vinci is trying to say. However, if the Nike shoe prints were made in semen, there is little doubt that those were made the night of the murder. The two droplet that are not part of the track, it is reasonable to scientifically conclude that they cannot be dated at this time.

But what about thinking osmotically? These are two stains that definitely appear to be semen and they are found inches from Meredith's vagina.

If we are to think osmotically, we must conclude that they are most likely from that evening. But again, if the shoe tracks on the pillow case turn out to be semen...they are definitely from that evening.

When you also consider that the rape kit showed evidence of sperm. Traces that have disappeared, like the interrogation tapes and other evidence. What are we to believe??

Missing Sperm-Specific Analyses

The laboratory records also reveal that both of the “sperm fractions,” i.e., the subtraces that were supposed to contain only sperm, tested positive for human DNA. Although the amounts of detected DNA were relatively small (1200 and 700 picograms, respectively), the quantities were well within the parameters that the lab was using to determine whether to further analyze the samples. Indeed, discernable gaps in the lab records suggest that these DNA-positive sperm fractions were in fact subjected to genetic profiling as profile nos. 626 and 628. However, no amplification or electrophoresis records corresponding to profile nos. 626 and 628 were ever disclosed by the prosecution. As shown in the video below, crime scene investigator/lab technician Patrizia Stefanoni can be heard on November 3 telling her assistant of an urgent need to test “presumed seminal fluid”. They knew the perpetrator had ejaculated. Stefanoni would later claim testing the stain would compromise the shoe print evidence.

 

[Bill Williams]

Samson: go over my posts about the semen stain. What would you like to know? What have I written that was not clear to you?

Speaking only for myself - I wonder what your thoughts are to excuse the police/investigators from having it tested for DNA-ownership right off as a matter of course?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I am not holding my breath

There is no need to post this over and over again. I read it, in it's original Italian when the link was posted.

Vibio,

I posted the material from pp. 23-24 and p. 26 just once. How many times did you post a single sentence on p. 22? How many times did you imply that this was the conclusion, when it was in fact followed by pages 23, 24, 25, and 26? Are you now willing to concede that Professor Vinci indicated that the Crimescope print was made when the bloody shoeprints were made?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

taking it step by step

If we are to think osmotically, we must conclude that they are most likely from that evening. But again, if the shoe tracks on the pillow case turn out to be semen...they are definitely from that evening.

The bloody shoe prints had to be made within minutes of the attack, or else the blood would be too dry. The partial shoe print found with the Crimescope is the same tread pattern and it is found on the pillowcase as well. The substance detected by the Crimescope was once a liquid or gel (whatever its chemical nature) but then also dried. That is how the partial print can be dated.

 

[Anode]

Could the "semen" stain instead be urine? It is my understanding that when a person dies, the muscles relax and body fluids drain out. It is yellow and in the right place. No?

I suppose we'll never know if they don't *test it*.

 

[Desert Fox]

Watching a documentary "When Satan came to town" where there is a case where families in the U.K. were arrested in the middle of the night for being Satanists.

The parents were not allowed any contact with their children either by letter or in person because the would use "Satanic Code"

Sounds very much like "Mafia Code" in this case.