Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Diocletus]

So what is to be done when it turns out that a nation's forensics lab may have botched a large number of cases?

Cover up, like Novelli and the ISC urge?

Or, suck it up?

 

[GreyFox]

They did do semen tests on November 5-6. Those tests ruled out that Raffaelle or Lumumba were the rapist, and instead, proved that someone else had committed the sexual assault. What happened to these tests? Well, they were hidden from Judge Matteini on November 8, so that the prosecution could secure the pre-trial incarceration of all of Sollecito, Lumumba and Knox, and then they were eventually used in the case against Guede (who, surprise, surprise, turned out to be the donor of the incriminating DNA).

This suppression of material and exculpatory evidence by the prosecution was unethical and a violation of the defendants rights under the ECHR concerning pretrial detention. It's exactly what happened in the Duke Lax case.

They had not hired their defense team at this point . They were working with court appointed lawyers who had little information to go on. Probably thought they were guilty at this point IIRC.

 

[acbytesla]

So it didn't even become an issue for the defense until late in the first trial before the verdict.

And then testing was requested for the appeal, and Hellman refused.

Got it. Thanks.


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Why don't you admit that this stain should have been tested? Regardless of what the judges ruled. It just makes sense that it is tested. If it is Rudy's, then the argument is that Rudy had consensual sex with Meredith, or that the murder was some kind of sex game gone wrong, or that it is just more evidence that Rudy did this alone. I'm not sure as RW does that it was a wet semen stain and not just a stain that Rudy left his shoe print on later. How do you tell that?

 

[Strozzi]

Why don't you admit that this stain should have been tested? Regardless of what the judges ruled. It just makes sense that it is tested. If it is Rudy's, then the argument is that Rudy had consensual sex with Meredith, or that the murder was some kind of sex game gone wrong, or that it is just more evidence that Rudy did this alone. I'm not sure as RW does that it was a wet semen stain and not just a stain that Rudy left his shoe print on later. How do you tell that?

Well, there are probably two ways to tell. The easy way is to just ask Inspect-her Giobi. He can spot La Mossa when a young woman stands up after bending down to put on her shoes. A guy like that probably has lots of experience dealing with soiled sheets.

The other way, Acbytesla, is to do an experiment to determine it. Vibio, you reside in the beautiful hills of central Italy, right? The next time Rudy is out on study release, would you mind if he swung by your place and you and he can test it on a sheet? If you want, you can use a common everyday sheet or I will reimburse you for the cost of a designer label. Let me know how it goes with poor Rudy! Look closely into his sole and count the rings.

 

[Diocletus]

They had not hired their defense team at this point . They were working with court appointed lawyers who had little information to go on. Probably thought they were guilty at this point IIRC.

Right. Due to the initial denial of counsel, and the suppression of exculpatory evidence, this was in effect an ex parte proceeding.

 

[acbytesla]

Well, there are probably two ways to tell. The easy way is to just ask Inspector Giobi. He can spot La Mossa when a woman stands up after bending down to put on her shoes. A guy like that probably has lots of experience dealing with soiled sheets.

The other way, Acbytesla, is to do an experiment to determine it. Vibio, you reside in the beautiful hills of central Italy, right? The next time Rudy is out on study release, would you mind if he swung by your place and you and he can test it on a sheet. If you want, you can use a common everyday sheet or I will reimburse you for the cost of a designer sheet. Let me know how it goes with Rudy!

Time and time again, I hear the PGP arguing against testing this stain and I can't help asking why? If its Raffaele, then he was involved and they can throw away the key for all I care. If its someone other than Rudy or Raffaele, then the judges can argue that you can't time stamp it..or can you? Was it really a wet stain that was effected by Rudy's shoe or was Rudy's shoe merely on top of it?

If it's Rudy's, then it tells me that this is another piece of significant evidence that it was Rudy and probably Rudy alone that committed this act. This is where the true mountain of evidence is.

Not sure what "La Mossa" means. I looked it up and am still confused.

 

[Strozzi]

Time and time again, I hear the PGP arguing against testing this stain and I can't help asking why? If its Raffaele, then he was involved and they can throw away the key for all I care. If its someone other than Rudy or Raffaele, then the judges can argue that you can't time stamp it..or can you? Was it really a wet stain that was effected by Rudy's shoe or was Rudy's shoe merely on top of it?

If it's Rudy's, then it tells me that this is another piece of significant evidence that it was Rudy and probably Rudy alone that committed this act. This is where the true mountain of evidence is.

Not sure what "La Mossa" means. I looked it up and am still confused.

"La Mossa" is the Italian idiom for "The Move", the hip wiggle that Italian TV show hostesses do on Italian game shows. Inspector Giobi perceived Amanda doing it when Amanda stood back up after putting on protective shoe coverings before being taken into the cottage. Giobi cited it in his testimony in the Massei trial. The court had to pause while someone explained it to Amanda; she had no idea what Giobi was testifying about.

La Mossa is one of the factors that Giobi used to conclude that she is a murderer. La Mossa + Eating Pizza = Murderer. Or, to paraphrase Giobi: "We don't need no stinking evidence".

I hope readers will excuse me for speaking unkindly of major players in this case such as Stefanoni, Giobi, and Mignini. They have committed tremendous damage to the Kercher family, the two innocent defendants, and Italian justice due to their unprofessionalism. I ridicule them for it.

 

[NancyS]

Wha? Misleading arguments?

I simply asked the following question in my post 4712

Note: I did not ask if DNA could have been dated.

I asked: "Could the s-t-a-i-n have been dated, as to when it was left?"

I then quoted Vinci from the link provided by another poster. This is what he (Vinci) wrote:

"it is not possible to date when the stains were left."

However the poster Strozzi makes his claim that yes in fact the stain can be dated:

Of course all of this goes waaaaaay over the head of our resident "Professor".

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Or you could answer the simple question Vibio - do you think Meredith was the sort of girl to sleep for many days/weeks on a pillow covered with semen? Was she a nice hygienic girl or a bit skanky, you decide?

You just couldn't make this stuff up! Amanda's lack of domestic cleanliness is used as a reason why there was murderous tensions between them - and yet they have Meredith sleeping on a pillow covered in semen that might or might not have belonged to her most recent boyfriend/sexual partner.

 

[acbytesla]

"La Mossa" is the Italian idiom for "The Move", the hip wiggle that Italian TV show hostesses do on Italian game shows. Inspector Giobi perceived Amanda doing it when Amanda stood back up after putting on protective shoe coverings before being taken into the cottage. Giobi cited it in his testimony in the Massei trial. The court had to pause while someone explained it to Amanda; she had no idea what Giobi was testifying about.

La Mossa is one of the factors that Giobi used to conclude that she is a murderer. La Mossa + Eating Pizza = Murderer. Or, to paraphrase Giobi: "We don't need no stinking evidence".

I hope readers will excuse me for speaking unkindly of major players in this case such as Stefanoni, Giobi, and Mignini. They have committed tremendous damage to the Kercher family, the two innocent defendants, and Italian justice due to their unprofessionalism. I ridicule them for it.

Thank you Strozzi, now it makes sense. Well, the definition makes sense. Not anything else. I really feel like these people are idiots. There is no credible evidence. It's all crazy interpretation and absurd innuendos. If it wasn't why would they feel the need to make up these stupid stories about Amanda being a coke fiend? Her roommate Filomena said that other than smoking pot as all the roomies did, Amanda was not into drugs. They take a phone number that they claim belong to an "unknown" drug dealer and turn it into a wild story that somehow shows Amanda as guilty of murder? Why do this if there is any real evidence? Seriously??

 

[stilicho]

Amanda's Violent Past

Explosive news from reliable sources links Amanda to violent drug dealer criminals in Italy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...iate-arrested-for-attempted-knife-murder.html

Amanda Knox was reportedly having sexual relations with a cocaine dealer who frequented a man who stabbed his brother 16 times, an Italian publication has claimed, quoting police reports.

These reports were originally unsourced from somewhere in the Italian media but now a clearer picture of Amanda's violent and drug abuse past is forming out of the PR-imposed gloom. Tom Kington has written on this topic over the years for both The Guardian and The Telegraph.

 

[Skind]

Note: I did not ask if DNA could have been dated.

I asked: "Could the s-t-a-i-n have been dated, as to when it was left?"

I then quoted Vinci from the link provided by another poster. This is what he (Vinci) wrote:

"it is not possible to date when the stains were left."

However the poster Strozzi makes his claim that yes in fact the stain can be dated:




Of course all of this goes waaaaaay over the head of our resident "Professor".


---

Of course, what Chris was trying to get at - and which went waaaaaay over your head by a very significant margin - is that just because a test cannot provide a date, it doesn't mean it's not a useful test.

Chris answered your question by pointing out that exact dating is not necessarily a useful quality in a testing tool, thusly negating the need to have your question answered pedantically and directly. I'm sorry that you didn't understand what he was getting at, but your lack of comprehension did not come as a surprise.

If you wish to keep up with him, you will need to do a lot better than that.

 

[NancyS]

Explosive news from reliable sources links Amanda to violent drug dealer criminals in Italy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...iate-arrested-for-attempted-knife-murder.html



These reports were originally unsourced from somewhere in the Italian media but now a clearer picture of Amanda's violent and drug abuse past is forming out of the PR-imposed gloom. Tom Kington has written on this topic over the years for both The Guardian and The Telegraph.

So the mud slinging at the witch/bitch/slut/whore continues - and now even information that didn't even contain enough half-truths to make it into court, is still being printed and still being lapped up by any old idiot that wants to believe the witch/bitch/whore/slut nonsense.

The sad thing is that these nonsense stories could be created about nearly all young people, if their situations had been reversed, Meredith could easily have been portrayed as just as much a sex crazed, drunk with drug connections - it's depressing and tragic that people take all this 'allegedly' stuff seriously, without any scrap of real evidence

 

[Diocletus]

Explosive news from reliable sources links Amanda to violent drug dealer criminals in Italy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...iate-arrested-for-attempted-knife-murder.html



These reports were originally unsourced from somewhere in the Italian media but now a clearer picture of Amanda's violent and drug abuse past is forming out of the PR-imposed gloom. Tom Kington has written on this topic over the years for both The Guardian and The Telegraph.

I'm starting to wonder whether there is anyone to meet in Italy who isn't a criminal. Even the cops and prosecutors in Perugia all seem to be in some sort of legal trouble.

 

[acbytesla]

Explosive news from reliable sources links Amanda to violent drug dealer criminals in Italy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...iate-arrested-for-attempted-knife-murder.html



These reports were originally unsourced from somewhere in the Italian media but now a clearer picture of Amanda's violent and drug abuse past is forming out of the PR-imposed gloom. Tom Kington has written on this topic over the years for both The Guardian and The Telegraph.

Do you really believe this nonsense? Who was the drug dealer and what was his phone number Stillcho? We have Amanda's phone bills. If this were Amanda's dangerous drug dealer, why aren't there actual calls between them? Or did she get in touch with him the same way apparently Rudy and Amanda supposedly communicated? You know..through osmosis.

This story was one which Machiavelli was peddling a while back. Show the actual substance behind this. Why didn't Filomena say that Amanda had a drug problem? Are you saying that Filomena lied for Amanda? The fact that the Daily Mail printed it and then other media outlets picked it up, doesn't make it true. Point us to the the true outlet for this story.

BTW, the fax that has been bouncing around Twitter is a fraud. The moron who made this story up, used COMIC SANS MS type font. The Questura does not use that FONT in in it's letter head or the body of its letters. Its clearly a fraudulent document.

 

[LondonJohn]

Explosive news from reliable sources links Amanda to violent drug dealer criminals in Italy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...iate-arrested-for-attempted-knife-murder.html



These reports were originally unsourced from somewhere in the Italian media but now a clearer picture of Amanda's violent and drug abuse past is forming out of the PR-imposed gloom. Tom Kington has written on this topic over the years for both The Guardian and The Telegraph.

Hahahaha!

Quite apart from very real doubts as to the authenticity of some of the "official" documents driving this story, you are so blinded by the excitement of smearing Knox that you've failed to notice the unintentional hilarity of the passage you quoted:

Amanda Knox was reportedly having sexual relations with a cocaine dealer who frequented a man who stabbed his brother 16 times, an Italian publication has claimed, quoting police reports.

Stop for a moment and count the sheer number of qualifications and tenuous connections in that one sentence! Here's what it reads like to me:

LondonJohn was reportedly having sexual relations with an actress who once met a more famous actress in a bar, an Italian publication has claimed, quoting a tabloid newspaper.



(For the record, the Telegraph is clearly pursuing the exact same route as the Mail in publishing this story: it's a mildly sensational story which (to the reader) appears to link Knox to the control and supply of hard drugs, as well as to a violent thug. Knox still has currency among the UK newspaper-reading public, so there is news value in the story. And the Telegraph - like the Mail before it - obviously feels that it is sufficiently indemnified against the threat of legal action on account of Mignini's alleged comments and Knox's current legal status.)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

alternate light sources and the detection of putative semen stains

In a 2009 review article Virkler and Lednev wrote, "Another commercial ALS [alternate light source], the BluemaxxTM BM500, was tested in a similar way and was 100% sensitive to semen stains. Also, physicians using the ALS were able to distinguish semen from other products 83% of the time after receiving training on how to use the device [50]."
EDT
Here is a machine translation of a portion of the Vinci report that concerns the partial shoe print. "The morphology of these traces (Highlighted by the Crimescope) represent with sufficient a definition particularities of part of the plantar sole of the shoe Left Brand Outbreak 2 size 44.5, we have used for other our investigations. The overlap Tracks with sole is strongly demonstration to about:"

 

[Samson]

I am interested in this claim from main poster Hopeful from TJMK.

Dr. Mignini knows Knox is a calculating cool liar. He said he doubts she will ever tell the truth, that when she lies she is convincing and seems very sincere. Raffaele comes close to Knox at winning the liar’s derby, it’s a photo finish.

Dr. Mignini should be believed to the max. He knows the criminal type by training and instinct.

A little while ago I posted that Mignini was responsible for having 22 people in captivity he was forced to release before Lumumba Knox and Sollecito, MOF presumably, and I wasn't corrected, but I am unsure of my facts.
Clearly if true, this post by Hopeful could not be more disgracefully wrong about Mignini.
Lumumba also innocent, and the last two disputed.

Can someone briefly catalogue or point to Mignini's known errors?

It seems Hopeful may be making as huge a blunder as I ever saw on TJMK, and the very strong probability is that the naïve Knox and Sollecito would be quite hopeless liars, and their seeming sincerity as detailed by Mignini is a strong proof of innocence.

 

[Desert Fox]

I am curious, what arguments does Mignini give in support of Amanda and Raffaele being incredibly skilled liars?

 

[acbytesla]

Hahahaha!

Quite apart from very real doubts as to the authenticity of some of the "official" documents driving this story, you are so blinded by the excitement of smearing Knox that you've failed to notice the unintentional hilarity of the passage you quoted:

Amanda Knox was reportedly having sexual relations with a cocaine dealer who frequented a man who stabbed his brother 16 times, an Italian publication has claimed, quoting police reports.

Stop for a moment and count the sheer number of qualifications and tenuous connections in that one sentence! Here's what it reads like to me:

LondonJohn was reportedly having sexual relations with an actress who once met a more famous actress in a bar, an Italian publication has claimed, quoting a tabloid newspaper.



(For the record, the Telegraph is clearly pursuing the exact same route as the Mail in publishing this story: it's a mildly sensational story which (to the reader) appears to link Knox to the control and supply of hard drugs, as well as to a violent thug. Knox still has currency among the UK newspaper-reading public, so there is news value in the story. And the Telegraph - like the Mail before it - obviously feels that it is sufficiently indemnified against the threat of legal action on account of Mignini's alleged comments and Knox's current legal status.)

I'd like to say that I'm surprised that any news outlet would publish this story. But I'm not. Especially not the Daily Mail and it looks like the Telegraph is just barely a step up, if that.

The Telegraph quoted an Italian tabloid that says according to unnamed sources in the police department that Amanda was having sex with (F) not even his name, first or last. But those of us familiar with the case believe that they are suggesting that Federico was the coke dealer. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if Federico, the guy she met on the train was "tried for dealing cocaine"? If not Federico, then who are they referring to?

And if this story is true, why don't actually identify these people? Could it be it is a nonsense story??

 

[Desert Fox]

Amanda Knox was reportedly having sexual relations with a cocaine dealer who frequented a man who stabbed his brother 16 times, an Italian publication has claimed, quoting police reports.

Dark Helmet: Before you die there is something you should know about us, Lone Star.
Lone Starr: What?
Dark Helmet: I am your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Lone Starr: What's that make us?
Dark Helmet: Absolutely nothing! Which is what you are about to become.

Not that I think the article is legitimate but all of us are only one or two stepped removed from somebody who did some horrible things.

Why would somebody use a tabloid as a source for news anyway?
I remember one had the navy ship I was on recover a UFO and called us a deep sea rescue ship - we were an amphibious cargo ship