Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Samson]

Its an image (silhouetted) of the victims body – from the case file - which has been released into the public domain by IIP. This much is now clear. I had taken Bruce F's earlier statement on this issue at face value – my mistake.
Whether other more explicit images of the victims body are circulating privately [sooper sekrit pictures] among fans of Amanda Knox or indeed may be released at a later date – on this I am agnostic.

As to the rest of your post - What on earth are you talking about LJ ?
The term non sequitur doesn't quite do it justice. The use of this image as an avatar is somehow analogous to the publication of the famous photo of the execution of an NLF member, by the police chief, in Ho Chi Minh City! Presumably that's whats you are referring to.* Or the footage of the Kennedy assassination. Do you really think so ?
And I should write something to someone based on this argument ? I think not.

And nor did I express any outrage or disgust. As I said I thought it's use as an avatar was 'appropriate' in the sense of emblematic. You appear to agree - but for very different reasons.
Its hard to tell – perhaps you were distracted by my missing apostrophe.

*In your version the killer is 'Vietcong' not the victim – another example of the unreliability of human memory perhaps.

delete

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't really care for graphic images of murder either. I am curious about your reaction to the slightly veiled graphic death threats against Amanda made by Grimbal aka Grahame Rhodes? we've seen posted on Facebook and Ground Report?

Me neither, but they are part of the whole picture, and are of material use in any attempt to form a properly-reasoned view on the case.

To go back to the example I gave to platonov, it's not pleasant to see JFK's head explode in the Zapruder film, and nor is it pleasant to see his autopsy photos. But an ability to see these things is very important in figuring out what happened. Indeed, in the JFK case, many misguided and unscientific commentators took the Zapruder film as evidence of a shot fired from the front.

In the Kercher case, the position, location and attitude of the body as it was found (assuming it was not moved by first responders of the police before the photos were taken....) is important evidence that is highly relevant to anyone trying to do a proper analysis of the case. The fact that the body itself is entirely blanked out in that photo only adds to the feeling that anyone complaining about it and seeking to grab the moral high ground is either intellectually deficient or has an ulterior motive for doing so.

 

[Samson]

Me neither, but they are part of the whole picture, and are of material use in any attempt to form a properly-reasoned view on the case.

To go back to the example I gave to platonov, it's not pleasant to see JFK's head explode in the Zapruder film, and nor is it pleasant to see his autopsy photos. But an ability to see these things is very important in figuring out what happened. Indeed, in the JFK case, many misguided and unscientific commentators took the Zapruder film as evidence of a shot fired from the front.

In the Kercher case, the position, location and attitude of the body as it was found (assuming it was not moved by first responders of the police before the photos were taken....) is important evidence that is highly relevant to anyone trying to do a proper analysis of the case. The fact that the body itself is entirely blanked out in that photo only adds to the feeling that anyone complaining about it and seeking to grab the moral high ground is either intellectually deficient or has an ulterior motive for doing so.

LondonJohn, I found your prediction of exoneration preceding October 2011 compelling.
Your predictions of futility about any possible appeal were carved from elements I understand. Your certainty was supported by your satisfaction at the logical conclusion that Hellman Zanetti seemingly forged.

 

[MDDVS]

Who was the person showing imges of the victim's body to an unsuspecting audience, to the shock of all? Fans of Amanda Knox alright.

 

[platonov]

Let's just say this, platonov:

Do I find your selective moral posturing at a blanked-out photograph of Kercher's corpse illuminating and telling? Yah, you betcha!

The brevity of your response would seem to indicate you have no defence of your argument.
So we are done it seems.

(BTW, well done on googling the photo of the Vietnam shooting incident! I had neither the time nor the inclination to seek out the accuracy of the affiliations of the protagonists, since it was entirely immaterial to the argument that I was making. But well done nonetheless on putting me right )

On this I assure you I didn't need google – the affiliation of the shooter and victim in that iconic photo was precisely the reason it was on front pages around the world at the time. You appear to have missed that in your haste to defend the use of the avatar.

Should you ever refer to the famous photo/footage from the same war of the pilot running down the road with his clothes burned off after being napalmed by a 4 ? yr old Vietnamese girl there will be many who could correct you without recourse to a search engine.

Not all of us are as dependent on google as you seem to be

 

[platonov]

I am relieved

delete

So I am no longer " a shell of a human being".

Thats good to know.

 

[Samson]

So I am no longer " a shell of a human being".

Thats good to know.

platonov, this is a community. I was referring back to mel Gibson
and thunderdome. The issue here is that all threads on jref are driven by black humour. If you pursue black humour here you will wish your children were better truthed. Sometime in the near future.

 

[platonov]

And I'm the incomprehensible one.

platonov, this is a community. I was referring back to mel Gibson
and thunderdome. The issue here is that all threads on jref are driven by black humour. If you pursue black humour here you will wish your children were better truthed. Sometime in the near future.

This makes about as much sense (to me) as LJ's argument.
And I'm the incomprehensible one

 

[Samson]

This makes about as much sense (to me) as LJ's argument.
And I'm the incomprehensible one

platanov, if you will take as a given that I can prove by multiple pathways that there is as much chance that Amanda and Raffaele were present at the slaying of Meredith, as the release of a static hand releases an egg that smashes on a ceiling, we can have a sensible discussion.

 

[Samson]

Moore's chapter in the book; "The Forgotten Killer...", points to Guede's arrest in Milan for a burglary in a nursery, where he had taken a knife from the kitchen. Guede was found with the items stolen from the Perugian law office 2 weeks earlier, with an identical break-in MO to the cottage, a rock through the window, with a metal grating assisted climb up.

Guede was released from Milan, after a call from Perugia to the mIlan police, Guede was on the next train to Perugia, and according to Moore's account, with his backpack and knife.

Moore had worked in Italy for school security, and had contacts in Italy. His investigations caused him to conclude Rudy was likely a police informant.

Bob Graham did an article on Guede about 4 months after the first level conviction, that also suggested that Guede was working for the police and given a pass on numerous robberies in Perugia because of that. This is probably the source of stories, including about the next door neighbor's apartment burning down and her missing gold watch (Guede also had a lady's gold watch when caught in Milan, but that watch disappeared after GUede's release). In Graham's article, Mignini concedes Guede may have been an informant.

Moore, Nencini (in his opinion), and Napoleone in testimony, all claim the police were familiar with Guede before the kercher killing, with Moore and Nencini going so far as to claim the police were familiar with Guede's style of B&E - a rock through the window, followed by a metal grating assisted climb up to a second floor.

At the Kercher crime scene, the police claim to have concluded the break-in was staged almost immediately. All the reasons they gave, suggested to me, they were trying to draw attention away from Guede.

Covering the corpse with a duvet is a female gesture.
Poor choice of window (but guede always used windows that had metal grating underneath to assist with the climb).
glass on top of tossed about clothes (was false, but Guede made a mess in his other burglaries).
(I've forgotten some other points, maybe they'll come back to me. But there are other similarities to Guede's previous burglaries - piles of glass, makes himself at home, carries a knife he brandishes when threatened - all facts the police would have known if they were familiar with and protecting Guede prior to the kercher killing).

The prosecution's refusal to test the broken to dispute the theory the break-in was staged (prosecution had claimed the glass was broken from inside the room, a test on the glass would have settled the question).

Refusing to test (or suppressing) the presumable sperm stain between Meredith's legs. The suppression of human DNA profiles from downstairs, including two samples from a light switch, (almost certainly Guede) falsely claiming they are all cat's blood. (mmk.com)

All the efforts to implicate Knox and Sollecito, including destroying exculpatory evidence, and to make it a group crime, and lessen Guede's involvement - first attempting to draft Lumumba, then substituting Guede when forensics came back and he could no longer be kept out of it. (my conjecture).

But the biggest issue for me is understanding why the Police and MIgnini would want to protect Guede. It's not because Guede is important, or he's doing any important or sensitive work. It's because they screwed up in allowing Guede to remain free to kill Meredith. Without a group crime, Guede alone is responsible. If Guede alone is responsible, then the responsibility for Kercher's death rests wholly with the Italians. The Police, Mignini, the judges, all of them.

In the judicial opinions look at the irrational positions that were taken by different players. Mignini wanted there to be a satanic sex orgy. The judge Micheli wouldn't have it. But he did go with the idea that the break-in was staged, it was a group crime, AK's statement was calumnia and hers - not the police's - fault, and that AK/RS should be held over for trial.

Micheli was also the judge in Mignini's case against 20 people in florence that Michelli would dismiss before trial in 2010. Micheli rejected Mignini's satanic sex claims in Florence, and also in the pre-trial Kercher case. Michelli and Massei didn't support Mignini's satanic sex calims, but they all supported: the staged break-in, the crime committed with others, and the calumnia charge (the police did nothing wrong).

Micheli was Mignini's judicial handler, in so far as his satanic sex cult claims in the Narducci/MOF and Kercher cases. Micheli was the single Italian judge to steer those claims through the courts, and harmonize the results. Mignini was publicly critical in rejecting Micheli's dismissal of his Florence case, he was either interviewed or wrote an editorial to that effect.

For Mignini and the Italian judiciary, Protecting Guede, is protecting themselves. This theory is consistent with the police behavior prior to and on-site at the kercher crime scene, with Mignini's behavior prior to and during the criminal investigation and trial, and the judge's supportive rulings defending people from Mignini's more offensive allegations, to the extent possible.

Micheli delayed writing his motivation for the 2010 florence case for 1 year, it was not released until I believe March 2012 (?), 3 months after the oct, 2011 Hellman acquittal. Michelli's motivation refuting Mignini's claims was over 900 pages. Motivations must normally be written within 90 days.

In March 2013, ISC overturned the Hellman acquittal. But I believe this is also the month they overturned Michelli's ruling dismissing Mignini's florence case against 20 people, Mario Spezi among them. The Florence case was sent back for retrial against Spezi and 5 others, the balance having been dismissed for statute of limitations.

When Spezi had been earlier released from jail, the releasing judge did not in releasing Spezi, deny Mignini's theory of Narducci/MOF and satanic sex cults. The judicial rulings have consistently been careful to not reject Mignini's theories, while at the same time protecting as far as possible, the many people he has been crazy enough to accuse with his crazy theories.

In the last week or two, the remnants of the Florence case were dismissed on the first day of court, all at the request of the prosecutor. Absent an appeal, Mignini's Narducci branch of the MOF investigation is closed. (Guitarri, who was charged with Mignini for abuse of office, has returned to the police force, and was a civil party in the case against Spezi which was dismissed).

Mignini's promotion means he will no longer lead investigations or try cases. He can only sit on appeal cases. Mignini can't appeal the Narducci case, so who else would? Mignini can't start any more witch hunts. The charges for abuse of office against him have been shelved, so the ISC no longer needs to protect Mignini from charges.

Mignini has his promotion, Guitarri is a policeman, the victims of Mignini's Narducci investigation have been saved from prosecution. The Kercher killing suspects (or judicial victims) Knox and Sollecito are literally the last loose ends of the MOF case.

The judges were never serious in the kercher convictions I believe. They were never that dumb, imo. They had an agenda. That agenda has been satisfied. There's no reason to hold onto the unjust convictions any longer, Amanda and Raf have served their purpose. In fact, its riskier and more damaging to them to hold them in the case any longer. It's a world-wide embarrassment, and there's nothing more to be gained be prolonging it. The way I read the tea leaves, Amanda and Raff are headed for exoneration at the earliest opportunity.

I totally agree, carbonjam72, I suggested that Ladbrokes would have Raffaele at 1.15 decimal to spend one more night in jail. And Amanda 1.001. I particularly agree that the composite political/judicial Italian construct will never bundle a declared innocent Italian upper class subject to a period of indeterminate incarceration.

 

[Samson]

carbonjam72, I would like to add, I am so certain of my analysis of the glass shard embedment precluding an interior staging, that I can elevate the notion to a proof of innocence.

 

[LondonJohn]

The brevity of your response would seem to indicate you have no defence of your argument.
So we are done it seems.

Ah the old "I declare myself the winner" trick! Bravo!

My argument (which you appear to have forgotten for some strange reason.....) was that photographs and video of horrific things happening to human beings are published frequently and are consumed across the world. All of those people have grieving relatives and friends, and all of them deserve dignity in death as well. Yet you appear to take issue at just one specific photograph of the victim in this particular case. Why is that, platonov? Is your selective "concern" driven by something other than logic perhaps?

On this I assure you I didn't need google – the affiliation of the shooter and victim in that iconic photo was precisely the reason it was on front pages around the world at the time. You appear to have missed that in your haste to defend the use of the avatar.

Should you ever refer to the famous photo/footage from the same war of the pilot running down the road with his clothes burned off after being napalmed by a 4 ? yr old Vietnamese girl there will be many who could correct you without recourse to a search engine.

Not all of us are as dependent on google as you seem to be

You are aware that everything apart from human instinctive behaviour is learned, right?

And you also expose yourself when you claim that I am trying to defend the avatar. I am doing nothing of the sort. I am merely questioning your motives for attacking it (seemingly in isolation). I suspect you can't see the difference though.........

 

[Bill Williams]

Who was the person showing imges of the victim's body to an unsuspecting audience, to the shock of all? Fans of Amanda Knox alright.

It is mind boggling that the sites proporting to be all about Meredith, are completely silent about Maresca showing unedited crime-scene film in the courtroom, including the most grotesque views of the aftermath of Rudy Guede's work.

Silence, complete silence. That's all that anyone needs to hear about the project of the hate sites.

 

[Strozzi]

Who was the person showing imges of the victim's body to an unsuspecting audience, to the shock of all? Fans of Amanda Knox alright.

It was Maresca, the Kercher family's attorney, who showed the victim's body to an unsuspecting audience. He did it to inflame the proceding so as to help obtain a guilty verdict, which is a precondition essential to his suit on behalf of the Kerchers for large monetary damages. Maresca presumably will earn a significant fee from any monetary damages actually collected.

RWVBWL recently used a silhouetted image of the murder victim as an avatar to get us readers to focus on what he believes are two blond human hairs photographed with the body. (He used it as avatar, unpleasant as it is, because he believes it is important evidence that has been overlooked.) The silhouetted image RWVBWL used shows the location of one of the possible hairs near the victim's crotch area. RWVBWL included in his corresponding comment a close-up forensic photo showing the second possible human hair in the victim's grasp.

RWVBWL wants to know what happened to the two possible human hairs. Were they collected as evidence or ignored and lost? If collected, we're they analyzed to determine if they are in fact human hairs and to whom do they belong?

I agree with RWVBWL that they are probably human hair - not because of known analysis, but because of the fact that they were found in two strategic locations (victim's grasp and crotch area), they appear long, somewhat curly, and blond. It is unscientific of me, but I believe that if they were clothing fibers or duvet or pillow fibers the fibers would be shorter - unless her duvet was filled with blond, curly, horsehair (think horse, not camel. . )

The hairs were photographed in the initial close-up forensic photos of the victim. I believe they were subsequently overlooked/not collected/lost when the authorities collected the body from the floor hours later. (think " incompetence", not "deliberate scheming")

Remember the video recording which shows and audio-recorded Stefanoni standing outside the cottage talking on her cell phone to Alyssa (sp?), her lab assistant? Stefanoni is heard telling her assistant of the work tasks to be done the next day - she mentioned test for semen. Stefanoni did not mention the need to also test hair collected at the scene. (She overlooked them. It is more evidence of her shoddy work habits; she is unfit to serve as a crime scene lab tech - let alone a forensic scientist.)

 

[Bill Williams]

And you also expose yourself when you claim that I am trying to defend the avatar. I am doing nothing of the sort. I am merely questioning your motives for attacking it (seemingly in isolation). I suspect you can't see the difference though.........

This is where I am with regards to the avatar. It is impossible to "defend" the use of that pic as an avatar, really.

But attacking its use is another matter... particularly in isolation.

Once again, my wish is that haters/guilters would actually approach this whole ugly affair "osmotically". To attack the use of an avatar on a thread in an obscure webservice on the fringes of the internet is one thing....

..... but to fail to make mention of the most vile use of Meredith's vulnerable image in the courtroom, which Maresca did, is quite another.

Why do guilters keep a disciplined silence about that? Sometimes I believe Machiavelli is on to something when he invokes Omertà - it's just that he applies it to the wrong side of the argument.

I truly wish that guilters looked at this whole ugly affair osmotically, including the vile tactics and lies of prosecutors.

 

[MDDVS]

Yes, it's incredible that people will come here to complain about an avatar showing a silhouette of Meredith's body, when the lawyer representing the victim's family has shown the most grotesque images of the crime during the court proceedings, apparently without much condenation by the family.

Nobody is being fooled by these displays of false piety and hipocrisy.

 

[Desert Fox]

Clearly DF, you know a lot more about that case than I do.

I do try to look at cases to see if I can find similarities.
While others may not agree, I see a lot of similarities between the AK/RS case and the Norfolk Four.
I also see the witch hunt and the media hype as something like the WM3.
I also see the shear incompetence when it comes to interviews and examining the evidence as more similar to the WM3. Evidence examination in the Norfolk four case actually seemed decent just they evaluation of the evidence was crazy.

 

[acbytesla]

Me neither, but they are part of the whole picture, and are of material use in any attempt to form a properly-reasoned view on the case.

To go back to the example I gave to platonov, it's not pleasant to see JFK's head explode in the Zapruder film, and nor is it pleasant to see his autopsy photos. But an ability to see these things is very important in figuring out what happened. Indeed, in the JFK case, many misguided and unscientific commentators took the Zapruder film as evidence of a shot fired from the front.

In the Kercher case, the position, location and attitude of the body as it was found (assuming it was not moved by first responders of the police before the photos were taken....) is important evidence that is highly relevant to anyone trying to do a proper analysis of the case. The fact that the body itself is entirely blanked out in that photo only adds to the feeling that anyone complaining about it and seeking to grab the moral high ground is either intellectually deficient or has an ulterior motive for doing so.

LJ, while I'm pretty sure that Platonov outrage is feigned, I'd say that I'd rather not see even the outline of Meredith's body as an avatar. If there is an actual point to be made with that outline, then fine. But not as an avatar. It's a cruel world out there, I'd really rather not be reminded of that fact on a minute by minute by case.

And while the Zapruder film although shocking does show the actual assassination taking place I'd rather not see that either unless it is for a specific point. The same goes for the autopsy photos.

 

[acbytesla]

I do try to look at cases to see if I can find similarities.
While others may not agree, I see a lot of similarities between the AK/RS case and the Norfolk Four.
I also see the witch hunt and the media hype as something like the WM3.
I also see the shear incompetence when it comes to interviews and examining the evidence as more similar to the WM3. Evidence examination in the Norfolk four case actually seemed decent just they evaluation of the evidence was crazy.

That's admirable. I honestly try not to get sucked into too many other cases. I'm already in the vortex of this case if you get my drift. This case shows so much to me on so many levels. I think this case will be studied for decades. It will teach what not to do from a forensic perspective, what not to do with a police interrogation, how the media and how social networks can effect public opinion, how confirmation bias can lead to a wrongful prosecution and worse.

There is the international dynamic. There is the demonetization in the press and how this taints a jury pool. It could lead to changes in the Italian justice system. It's actually kind of bizarre on just how many levels this case is interesting.

 

[platonov]

One of life's mysteries.

Ah the old "I declare myself the winner" trick! Bravo!

My argument (which you appear to have forgotten for some strange reason.....) was that photographs and video of horrific things happening to human beings are published frequently and are consumed across the world. All of those people have grieving relatives and friends, and all of them deserve dignity in death as well. Yet you appear to take issue at just one specific photograph of the victim in this particular case. Why is that, platonov? Is your selective "concern" driven by something other than logic perhaps?






You are aware that everything apart from human instinctive behaviour is learned, right?

And you also expose yourself when you claim that I am trying to defend the avatar. I am doing nothing of the sort. I am merely questioning your motives for attacking it (seemingly in isolation). I suspect you can't see the difference though.........

I'm not sure I can help any further with your mystification over why a JREF poster (me) would comment in isolation about an avatar that appeared on the same page of a JREF thread that he was posting on. It will have to remain one of life's mysteries.

There are internet posters out there who regularly explode into fits of rage about stuff posted elsewhere on the net and the shortcomings of the offending authors - The members of a site called PMF or something (for example) are often the targets of these outbursts - but I am not one of those. Comrade platonov views that kind of stuff as revealing more about the source than the target.

And you are not defending the use of the avatar – merely something or other ?
What was the ludicrous (if humorous in its own special way) comparison to the Kennedy footage or the Vietnam photo about in that case.