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Religion is to God as Sci-Fi is to Science

Yes, yes and atheists back in the stone -age learned how to build a fire. Therefore, they concluded, materialism is true.
Non-responsive.

Sean Carroll will be remembered as another short-sighted scientist who thought he had it all figured out. Your appeals to novelty and authority won't make any difference to people who have experienced profound paranormal phenomena, or people who actually take the time to become familiar with the large body of parapsychological evidence and pertaining scholarship. As opposed to prejudging it all and letting some trickster debunker do their thinking about it all for them.
I made no appeal to authority. Professor Carroll explains in the video precisely how we know that your claims of the paranormal are a priori untrue.

Now, if the evidence you mention about actually existed, that would be a different matter. We would evaluate it, attempt to replicate it, and see if it held up to scrutiny - and if it did, we would then need to re-evaluate our theories. Which would be something of a surprise because as I noted, we have tested those theories and they work.

But the evidence you are talking about does not exist. So there is nothing for us to do. We are simply right; you are simply wrong.

I can see you really, really want to believe in that. But I follow the evidence, not a short-sighted, dogmatic scientist and his dubious efforts to restrict inquiry.
This is, again, untrue. Professor Carroll presented the evidence that disproves your claims. You did not follow that evidence, you have not even mentioned it.

Speaking of evidence... since I watched one of your vids maybe it's only fair you watch one of mine.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9l6VPpDublg
I got less than two minutes in before he started talking unmitigated nonsense. No, humans are not connected by the Earth's magnetic field. Inverse square law, Dr Persinger; you are simply wrong.

There, now that the Sean Carroll nonsense has been dealt with
You haven't yet begun to deal with it, Limbo. Professor Carroll is right, and you are wrong.

You guys liked Dune, right? It seems Herbert got his inspiration from magic mushrooms.
As I said with respect to Philip K Dick, "paranormal" is a funny way to spell "drug".
 
Already asked and answered. Pay attention.


Look, we both love BSG. We both love sci-fi. We don't have to lock horns like this.

You seem to be saying you have provided a counter-analysis. Yet earlier you seemed to imply you haven't, when you said, "Please quote where I have offered a counter-analysis..."

As far as I can tell, your posts pertaining to BSG boil down to three things

1. You're wrong, Limbo
2. Mormonism
3. Israel

An analysis of BSG that merely points to Mormonism and Israel is like an analysis of West Side Story that merely points to Romeo and Juliet and leaves it at that. It says nothing about Shakespeares tragic equation in his body of work and how he solved it, how West Side Story fits in to that equation, etc.

So, I'll make you a deal. If you can provide an insightful analysis of BSG that doesn't boil down to any of those three items I listed I will consider you a worthy opponent. If not, I will consider you a defeated opponent who just can't swallow the bitter taste of defeat.

Take all the time you need.
 
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Archetypes are sort of like the building-blocks of world religion and myth. They are also the building-blocks of the sci-fi/comic book genre. They take different forms but underneath the surface they are the same.

Archetypes are sort of like the building-blocks of BS and myth. They are also the building-blocks of the woo genre. They take different forms but underneath the surface they are the same
 
Look, we both love BSG. We both love sci-fi. We don't have to lock horns like this.

You seem to be saying you have provided a counter-analysis. Yet earlier you seemed to imply you haven't, when you said, "Please quote where I have offered a counter-analysis..."

As far as I can tell, your posts pertaining to BSG boil down to three things

1. You're wrong, Limbo
2. Mormonism
3. Israel

An analysis of BSG that merely points to Mormonism and Israel is like an analysis of West Side Story that merely points to Romeo and Juliet and leaves it at that. It says nothing about Shakespeares tragic equation in his body of work and how he solved it, how West Side Story fits in to that equation, etc.

So, I'll make you a deal. If you can provide an insightful analysis of BSG that doesn't boil down to any of those three items I listed I will consider you a worthy opponent. If not, I will consider you a defeated opponent who just can't swallow the bitter taste of defeat.

Take all the time you need.

It was a television program designed to capture the maximum audience to sell the maximum product, looking for deeper meanings in TV programs is a shallow exercise in self deception.

Sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke.
 
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You seem to be saying you have provided a counter-analysis.

No I don't.

If you find deriving meaning from ordinary English so difficult, then it's no wonder you have such difficulty with basic textural analysis.

So, I'll make you a deal. If you can provide an insightful analysis of BSG that doesn't boil down to any of those three items I listed I will consider you a worthy opponent. If not, I will consider you a defeated opponent who just can't swallow the bitter taste of defeat.

And your opinion of me is something that occupies a great deal of my time.

Take all the time you need.

...which is something that a proper textural analysis would actually require. Something worth considering.
 
Funny you mentioned Romeo & Juliet, Limbo. I was writing an answer to a post of your that was sent to AAH that involved it. Will not link to it, since it would be against the rules, but I will use part of what I was writing.

See, elements of the monomyth are not just at science fiction. It may be easier for you to find it there. All it takes is to see the sciencey bits (ex.: Star Trek technology and technobabble) as magic (or paranormal if you wish). Of course, there is a reinforcing mechanism here- it matches your beliefs and purposes, but I digress.

Lets go back to Romeo & Juliet. If you compare it with the Genesis, you'll see they share a lot rather obvious elements. I can then move on and do the same with soap operas. Piece of cake- they share lots of common elements with Romeo and Juliet and the Genesis. This is by no means evidence Jungian archetypes exist. Its also doesn't mean Shakespeare and soap opera authors must have had mystical/paranormal experiences. It just means there are common themes that make a good storytelling; a recipe transmitted by people across times and cultures. Memes, if you like.

See? We can find the same themes and rules across several genres of fiction, from the Genesis through a Shakespeare romantic tragedy, soap operas, science fiction and My Little Pony(*).

I could go on and say the article you mentioned has flaws, since Asimov's "I, Robot" novels can also be seen under this illusory light but I doubt he ever had a mystic experience. Its just storytelling. No need for Jungian archetypes. Just memes, cultural constructs.

Don't restrict yourself to science fiction. Lots of us atheists love games. Do you think they are our religion too? Try checking The Elder Scrolls lore. It'll blow your mind. Do you think the people who wrote it all had mystical/paranormal experiences? Or they just used recipes and elements from other tales? Sheogorath says "Hi" and blesses you.


(*) The IPU speaks through it.
 
No I don't.

If you find deriving meaning from ordinary English so difficult, then it's no wonder you have such difficulty with basic textural analysis.



And your opinion of me is something that occupies a great deal of my time.



...which is something that a proper textural analysis would actually require. Something worth considering.


Well, I gave you a fair chance. Now I must consider you an unworthy opponent. Bye!
 
The funny thing is Limbo, he explicitly denied providing a counter-analysis, and wanted you to show where he had done so.

You just made a complete ass of yourself sir. Trying slowly down and reading what is in front of you.
 
Here's your problem, Limbo. The scientific theory that shows that your paranormal claims are false is the exact same theory that allows us to build the computers and communications devices that power this forum. Your post denying this is just more evidence that it is correct. There is no longer any place for this sort of paranormal claim to hide; we know even before we investigate the specifics that such claims must be false.

We know how the physics of our everyday world works, and we test and confirm our understanding a trillion times a day. And there is no room in our world for your claimed shamanistic powers; they are no more than a fantasy.

What you are claiming does not happen, and this is no surprise, because what you are claiming can not happen.

What you say doesn't appear to make sense, Pixy. Science-capital-S has not been testing psionics extensively, has it? I mean, if I have ESP, and don't use it, who is ever going to know there is ESP in the world? These are voluntary powers in question, not forces of nature that simply chug onward and can be picked up on a seismograph or what have you.

Cpl Ferro
 
What you say doesn't appear to make sense, Pixy. Science-capital-S has not been testing psionics extensively, has it? I mean, if I have ESP, and don't use it, who is ever going to know there is ESP in the world? These are voluntary powers in question, not forces of nature that simply chug onward and can be picked up on a seismograph or what have you.

Cpl Ferro
If you have ESP and never use it, how could it be detected anyway? and how is it different from not having it at all?
 
What you say doesn't appear to make sense, Pixy. Science-capital-S has not been testing psionics extensively, has it? I mean, if I have ESP, and don't use it, who is ever going to know there is ESP in the world? These are voluntary powers in question, not forces of nature that simply chug onward and can be picked up on a seismograph or what have you.

Cpl Ferro

Science did investigate the claims of psionics extensively and discovered that the claims could be explained with very mundane facts, for example poor recollection or trickery as used by stage magicians for decades.

The reason why there is only a very small minority of scientist (outside the humanities) now that investigate the claims of psionics is that there is nothing new to investigate just the same old, same old. Scientists on the whole want to discover something new so they do not spend time going over and over the same ground looking for something that has already been shown to not exist.
 
Limbo is in himself for a while (gender assumption acknowledged) but I'm going to reply anyway while the discussion is fresh in my mind.

Yes, quite sure. You go hunting, you endure trials, and you return with the kill. A shaman will use that common experience as a metaphor to hint at the uncommon experience of leaving the body, going to the 'underworld', and returning with, say, a 'soul fragment' of a tribe member.
...
Not so easy, but a hunt need not include the archetype of mana, or of the Goddess or temptress, or of the wise old man or woman, or of the trickster, or of the shadow, or of rebirth, ect. But the shamanic life-experience will include most or all of those.


Well, okay. We can disagree on this. I'd invite you, though, to consider more carefully the kinds of trials that can occur with "mundane" life experiences before concluding that tricksters, mentors, Goddesses, shadows, etc. would not be encountered therein. Mundane doesn't imply routine, simple, or safe, especially in prehistoric settings.

I can see how it might look that way to the uninitiated.


Good. I'm glad you can see that.

I, in turn, can see how it might look otherwise to an initiate.

But where does that leave us? We are both capable of understanding that different experiences can lead to different perceptions, and that initiations are experiences deliberately designed to alter ones subsequent perceptions. Is that sufficient to distinguish whose perceptions are true (or truer?) I don't think it is. I'm sure you're as familiar as I am with cases where people (sometimes in vast numbers) have been initiated into wickedness and falsehood. Altering perceptions through initiation is no more a guarantee that the altered perceptions are truer than is altering perceptions by writing something in a book.

A hunt can take place in known, mundane geography. A soul-retrieval can't. A pilgrimage can can be part of a soap opera or teen romance. A UFO abduction can't.


My understanding is that the concept of "mundane geography" would be unfamiliar to most people who follow shamans. Geography is threaded with a fractal hierarchy of sacred places, times, and entities in the same way that living flesh is threaded with blood vessels. Shamanism arises and fits in that context. When you try to isolate the sacred away in some remote place or alternate dimension, and divide the world between wizarding and muggle, the whole system breaks down.

Thus, a symbolic soul-retrieval narrative absolutely can take place in a mundane setting. The soul will usually be symbolized by some object, just as it is in shamanic stories about soul retrieval (where the soul fragment always appears as something like a stone, a feather, a pearl, etc). So consider, for example, Pee Wee's Big Adventure as monomyth. You couldn't book a more mythic journey of soul retrieval if Hermes Trismegistus was your travel agent. A large part of the point is to show that even its quintessentially mundane settings, a pastiche of kitschy Americana, still have plenty of sacred magic in them. That point would be lost if you moved the story to outer space or Never-Never Land. (Compare and contrast: the more literal treatment of similar themes, by means of more overtly fantastic narrative, in Neil Gaiman's American Gods.)

So when a modern shaman just happens to be an author, you will get stories with archetypes and unknowns outside of the mundane, because those are the experiences of shamans, whether they are urban shamans initiated by UFOs or traditional shamans initiated by tribal gods. The UFO phenomenon is a transformation of archetypes, not a modern technological development that started in Roswell. They are a big part of sci-fi and of our space-age culture as a whole. And they are that which ancient shamans would call a tribal god. It's not a new phenomenon unique to the space-age, and it's not just smoke and mirrors.

So when a sci-fi fan reads a story about aliens, he is reading about an archetype in symbolic form - an archetype that the shaman deals with on behalf of the tribe in a ritualistic, sacred manner. We can see a UFO and imagine that it is mundane (but advanced) technology carrying mundane biological life-forms that evolved on a mundane planet. But that is just the secular, materialistic mythologem of the space-age which our culture takes to heart, and in so doing takes a myth literally just as religious fundamentalists do with Jesus. That's when it crosses over into 'religion'.


That last point is confusing. Close Encounters of the Third Kind hits most of the mythic archetypes on your list (except for the return stage) and then some; its protagonist receives visions, goes searching for explanations of them, rejects (and is rejected by) mundane society in the process, is assisted by sympathetic helpers and hindered by the lies and machinations of tricksters, and eventually reaches a liminal sacred place where he has a final transformative experience that removes him from the earthly life and limitations he's no longer concerned with.

The literal narrative, though, concerns biological aliens that have evolved on some distant physical planet, and come to earth in advanced technological machines, abducting humans for study with the intent of eventually establishing contact, and finally accepting the protagonist as human ambassador/guest/specimen to board their big machine and fly away with them.

You seem to be saying that those who prefer that latter (and perfectly valid) interpretation of the story, the ones who focus on the literal plot, are the ones making it into religion. Honestly, what sense does that claim make?

Most rationalists (who are well represented among SF readers and fans), while enjoying well-crafted fiction like Close Encounters, do not believe that UFOs are actual flesh and blood aliens in material high-tech space ships, nor that they are paranormal spirits from alternate realities manifesting as lights in the sky. They believe, based on the available evidence, that they're effects of various natural causes and human activities, that get misinterpreted. So, who are the ones making UFOs into religion? Certainly not, as a group, the SF fans.

Are Bible literalists more religious than Bible interpretationists? The latter, I might point out, includes the Catholic Church. Maybe you're using some non-standard definition of "religion" here; can you clarify?

Can see physical objects or places beyond the scope of vision: yes.


There's the crux of where we disagree.

But rather than argue back and forth on the point, I'm going to ask a rather complex question that I invite you to consider carefully. That question is: "What difference does that point of disagreement make?"

Please don't read that as a mere rhetorical question, implying that I think it makes no difference at all. That's not my intent.

Nonetheless, let me describe some differences it doesn't make. Imagine two worlds, one in which I'm correct and no seeing of remote places takes place, and one in which you're correct and it does.

In both worlds, the hunters go to the places where the shaman envisions game. In both worlds, the game is sometimes there and sometimes not. In both worlds, when it is not there, the hunters or shaman will say that the game must have moved while the hunters were en route, or that the shaman's vision was the right location but a different time, or that a trickster spirit was feeling extra tricky that day and misled the shaman with a false vision. In both worlds, the hunters will still listen to the shaman next time because he's often right, it's better than bickering among themselves about where to hunt, and they all understand that the shaman is as subject as they are to the will of the spirits who ultimately decide whether or not they get meat.

What differences does it make to them whether their shaman is paranormally remote viewing or not? What differences does it make to us whether their shaman is paranormally remote viewing or not?
 
And I think you genuinely think that the things you're saying are true insights, rather than something that anybody who's done a GCSE in Media Studies would be able to say. That you're not very good at it is just an amusing bonus.

Well and truly said.........:):):)
 
And I think you have nothing more to contribute to the topic than repeating over and over that I'm wrong. Saying that over and over doesn't make you right.
Correct: saying it over and over has no effect on it's truth or lack of same. But it is all the same - untrue/incorrect/wrong/ill chosen - whichever term you prefer/choose/want.
 
What you say doesn't appear to make sense, Pixy. Science-capital-S has not been testing psionics extensively, has it? I mean, if I have ESP, and don't use it, who is ever going to know there is ESP in the world? These are voluntary powers in question, not forces of nature that simply chug onward and can be picked up on a seismograph or what have you.
The point is, we now know that we don't need to do that.

There are only two known forces that operate on everyday human scales, gravity - which is tremendously weak, and only does one thing - and electromagnetism. We are very, very, very good at detecting and manipulating the electromagnetic force; that is the basis of almost all modern technology.

If the electromagnetic force were the basis of ESP, we'd know. We'd know how the brain sends and receives the signals - there would have to be an identifiable physical mechanism; we'd detect the signals all the time; we could build our own ESP devices. We'd see people blacking out under the onslaught of the intense electrical and magnetic fields that many people work with every day.

None of this happens.

We have mobile phones; there's more than a billion of them around the world. If ESP existed and worked via EM, we'd know. The evidence would be everywhere. It would be impossible to miss.

So if ESP exists, it must work by something other than EM.

But from QFT we know that there are no other forces that work on this scale.

So ESP does not exist. End of story.
 
If you have ESP and never use it, how could it be detected anyway? and how is it different from not having it at all?
If you had ESP, and it worked via electromagnetism, then you'd necessarily be very sensitive to EM fields. We'd put you in a strong oscillating EM field and you'd instantly have a seizure.

This, of course, does not happen.

And the thing about QFT (as I noted above) is that it completely rules out the existence of other fields operating at the right scale for ESP. So if it can't be EM, and it can't be anything else, it's not anything at all.
 
The point is, we now know that we don't need to do that.

There are only two known forces that operate on everyday human scales, gravity - which is tremendously weak, and only does one thing - and electromagnetism. We are very, very, very good at detecting and manipulating the electromagnetic force; that is the basis of almost all modern technology.

If the electromagnetic force were the basis of ESP, we'd know. We'd know how the brain sends and receives the signals - there would have to be an identifiable physical mechanism; we'd detect the signals all the time; we could build our own ESP devices. We'd see people blacking out under the onslaught of the intense electrical and magnetic fields that many people work with every day.

None of this happens.

We have mobile phones; there's more than a billion of them around the world. If ESP existed and worked via EM, we'd know. The evidence would be everywhere. It would be impossible to miss.

So if ESP exists, it must work by something other than EM.

But from QFT we know that there are no other forces that work on this scale.

So ESP does not exist. End of story.

Okay, grant what you say. There is some talk among scientists and commentators that the universe may be informational in nature, like the Matrix. Why couldn't human willpower "cheat code" that Matrix? If so, why couldn't that be the basis for ESP, UFOs and the paranormal?

(A related implicit question would be, what energy powers the human will?)

Cpl Ferro
 

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