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Religion is to God as Sci-Fi is to Science

After I posted my BSG take, you responded with, "Battlestar Galactica is actually based on Mormonism." As if that makes everything I said wrong somehow. I've tried to explain to you why Mormonism is irrelevant, and all you've said in response is, basically, "you're wrong".

Please re-read my posts, and this time actually pay attention to the words I used, rather than what you'd like me to have used.

If you think I've misidentified the archetypes, then please provide us with your own identification of them.

No. Do your own research. It's your method of analysis. If you care at all about it's efficacy and validity, then the onus is on you to actually fix its flaws.
 
They aren't just yarns developed around the campfire to explain things like thunder and lightning
But that is precisely what they are, and always have been. After all, shamanism does nothing, and the paranormal does not exist; all they have to offer is stories.
 
And mythology draws from mystical realms of interconnected everything, which draws from god's all knowing intestines and this somehow makes everything we do more than it is.
 
Another post worthy of attention from Myriad!

Are you sure that mystical or shamanic narratives are the original source? Consider common life experiences in a stone age society.


Yes, quite sure. You go hunting, you endure trials, and you return with the kill. A shaman will use that common experience as a metaphor to hint at the uncommon experience of leaving the body, going to the 'underworld', and returning with, say, a 'soul fragment' of a tribe member.

All in all, doesn't it seem more likely that the monomyth and the path of shamanic development derived from those real-world experiences, instead of the other way around?


I can see how it might look that way to the uninitiated.


Try describing a hunt or raid (or a sea voyage, or a trade mission to obtain a needed resource, or a migration to escape an invader or natural disaster, or being cast out of ones birth tribe as a young male to seek a mate from another tribe—a practice that probably pre-dates the differentiation of the human species) in a narrative that makes logical sense but doesn't evoke the monomyth. Not so easy, I'd say.


Not so easy, but a hunt need not include the archetype of mana, or of the Goddess or temptress, or of the wise old man or woman, or of the trickster, or of the shadow, or of rebirth, ect. But the shamanic life-experience will include most or all of those.

A hunt can take place in known, mundane geography. A soul-retrieval can't. A pilgrimage can can be part of a soap opera or teen romance. A UFO abduction can't.

So when a modern shaman just happens to be an author, you will get stories with archetypes and unknowns outside of the mundane, because those are the experiences of shamans, whether they are urban shamans initiated by UFOs or traditional shamans initiated by tribal gods. The UFO phenomenon is a transformation of archetypes, not a modern technological development that started in Roswell. They are a big part of sci-fi and of our space-age culture as a whole. And they are that which ancient shamans would call a tribal god. It's not a new phenomenon unique to the space-age, and it's not just smoke and mirrors.

So when a sci-fi fan reads a story about aliens, he is reading about an archetype in symbolic form - an archetype that the shaman deals with on behalf of the tribe in a ritualistic, sacred manner. We can see a UFO and imagine that it is mundane (but advanced) technology carrying mundane biological life-forms that evolved on a mundane planet. But that is just the secular, materialistic mythologem of the space-age which our culture takes to heart, and in so doing takes a myth literally just as religious fundamentalists do with Jesus. That's when it crosses over into 'religion'.

Is experienced: yes.
Can help the tribe hunt: yes.
Can locate game with better than chance reliability: maybe (if associated with shaman's ability to deduce or intuitively perceive patterns of game movement).
Can see physical objects or places beyond the scope of vision: no.


Can see physical objects or places beyond the scope of vision: yes.

"I agree that by the standards of any other area of science that remote viewing is proven, but begs the question: do we need higher standards of evidence when we study the paranormal? I think we do."

-Richard Wiseman

No, we don't need double-standards in science, Richard... quit moving the goal-posts.
 
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Lol. Limbo, when quality posters like Myriad give you sincere attention, the best you have is woo and arguments by assertion. Then you top it off with a quote taken out of context on a subject that we all know has no evidence.

So, evidence for psi?
Evidence for UFO's of alien origin?
Evidence for the soul?

Metaphors and fancy words are not evidence.
 
I can see how it might look that way to the uninitiated.
Hold that thought for a second.

Can see physical objects or places beyond the scope of vision: yes.
Then why are they entirely, perfectly, invariably unable to demonstrate this ability?

I mean, I know the answer - they can't do this; they are lying or confused. And there's a simple way out of this. It's called science.

Of course, science says they're wrong, because they are wrong. So applying the universally accepted standard of evidence and logic will require them to abandon their comfortable falsehoods.

"I agree that by the standards of any other area of science that remote viewing is proven, but begs the question: do we need higher standards of evidence when we study the paranormal? I think we do."

-Richard Wiseman

No, we don't need double-standards in science, Richard... quit moving the goal-posts.
He's not applying double standards; he's applying appropriate standards. Whether you're studying stars or starfish, you can count on the fact that they are not deliberately trying to mislead you. When you are studying the paranormal, this is not true. What's more, the prior probability of paranormal claims is known to be zero. That means that the evidence for such a claim needs to establish not only the truth of the claim, but to overturn the evidence for our existing theories which show such claims to be impossible. And that evidence is truly, truly vast in scope.
 
Then why are they entirely, perfectly, invariably unable to demonstrate this ability?


Where the archetype of mana goes, the archetype of the trickster follows. Science is too clumsy and limited to deal with both of them. Shamans are not.

“If one believes, as I do, that ESP exists but is scientifically untestable, one must believe that the scope of science is limited.”

–Freeman Dyson, in a Foreword to Extraordinary Knowing: Science, Skepticism, and the Inexplicable Powers of the Human Mind, by Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, Ph.D.
 
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Where the archetype of mana goes, the archetype of the trickster follows. Science is too clumsy and limited to deal with both of them.
So what you are saying is that the reason they are unable to demonstrate what they claim to do is because they are lying?

Science can deal with that, you know. It's not even difficult. We do it all the time, and it works extremely well.

  1. We ask them do demonstrate their claim.
  2. They refuse, or fail.
  3. We dismiss their claims as nonsense.

As I've said before, if you think otherwise, all you need to do is use shamanism rather than a computer (the product of clumsy, limited science!) to post your reply to this forum. Do that, and we'll take you seriously. Until then... Not so much.
 
Can someone summarise the thread please?

Sci-fi draws from mythology....... and?

Some people find our actual, infinitely complex and fascinating universe unsatisfying so they add stuff that isn't really there. I think that covers all the main points.
 
I will continue this discussion, but today I'm on a journey. I'll let everyone know if I encounter any Goddesses, temptresses, wise old men or women, tricksters, shadows, or mana, or if I experience any rebirth.
 
Some people find our actual, infinitely complex and fascinating universe unsatisfying so they add stuff that isn't really there. I think that covers all the main points.

Yes, instead of doing the hard work of understanding reality they prefer the world of the imagination where fancy roams free.

Although there is a parallel between the comics and Christianity, in the comics the villain dies at the end of the story but always is revived for the sequels, Jesus does the same.
 
I will continue this discussion, but today I'm on a journey. I'll let everyone know if I encounter any Goddesses, temptresses, wise old men or women, tricksters, shadows, or mana, or if I experience any rebirth.

You will see them but your enlightened mind will write them off as ordinary people and events, you have to be touched by mystic mumbo-jumbo to understand that the dog that barked was really the Trickster and the old derelict on the corner is really a sage.

You've got to work on that more superior-than-thou attitude also.:rolleyes:
 
Where the archetype of mana goes, the archetype of the trickster follows. Science is too clumsy and limited to deal with both of them. Shamans are not. “If one believes, as I do, that ESP exists but is scientifically untestable, one must believe that the scope of science is limited.”

–Freeman Dyson, in a Foreword to Extraordinary Knowing: Science, Skepticism, and the Inexplicable Powers of the Human Mind, by Elizabeth Lloyd Mayer, Ph.D.

True, shamans are not limited by such mundane things as the laws of physics and reality.
 
I will continue this discussion, but today I'm on a journey. I'll let everyone know if I encounter any Goddesses, temptresses, wise old men or women, tricksters, shadows, or mana, or if I experience any rebirth.


I am looking forward to continuing our discussion. Safe Journey! :)
 

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