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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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NB The column to column splices were unrestrained and the braces 4' and 9' from the connections.... not a great thing to keep those connections from moving laterally...

There you go again: making up more BS.

Column splices are mandated at 4'-0" for safety reasons:
AISC 360-05 said:
Column splices at the final exterior and interior perimeter and at interior openings must be located a minimum of 48 in. above the finished floor to accommodate the attachment of safety cables, except when constructability does not allow.

Also:
AISC 360-05 said:
When shear from lateral loads is divided among several columns, the force on any single column is relatively small and can usually be resisted by friction on the contact bearing surfaces and/or by the flange plates, web plates, or butt plates.

There are no requirements for braces at splices (outside of special moment frames in Seismic Design Category D).
 
Yes, I read MTs paper concerning the sequence of collapse observable from the outside, and his extrapolation as to what that implies was happening inside...
Yes - had a quick look but didn't find the posts - yet. But my position is unchanged over several years as you know. Major_Tom's technical work is extensive and has not been technically faulted. Whether or not people think he is a truther OR whether or not they are interested in the research is irrelevant to those technical truths.

I stopped shortly after those parts of the paper. His psychology musings leave me cold.
Me too. Actually IMNSHO his pseudo psychology consists of a foundation of truism quotes from persons many of whom would be recognised as authorities. Very little original input from M_T other than his interpretation/application of those truisms based in his own style of shaky logic.

IMO that's not the problem. The problem is what M_T does with those bits of possible truth. He falsely generalises, draws false global conclusions, looks for single exceptions which favour his predetermined conclusions then disregards the weight of evidence. Probably a couple more. BUT those are the very same failings of logic structure that he applies to matters other than the pseudo psychology. Failings of logical reasoning process....independent of the "psychology" he attaches them to.

(BTW - anyone interested in my assessment of the style read his post #1912 which probably proves every aspect I just claimed. I haven't responded because it would take a lot of effort to put the issues in context and focus and be of no benefit to anyone. The rest of you not interested in me taking on M_T. And M_T would simply use it as basis for more evasion or insults. Remember tho' - he is still treating me as #1 enemy by inference even though I'm out mostly on my lonesome commending his true technical claims. Go figure (a) Why he pours most spite on me for agreeing with him; AND (b) Why I still bother. :rolleyes: )


And over the past 3 or so years I've posted him detailed explanations two or three times on each of this forum and 911Forum. I've probably put more effort into trying to help him that any other member and across two forums. The only outcome - he has awarded me my personal "character assassination thread" targeting me with....you guessed it... insults expressed by innuendo...another ongoing feature of his style.

He simply will not engage in reasoned discussion. Another characteristic of his "style". Remember his thread claiming that NIST made errors in "key areas" where he never would state what the "key areas" were OR what "errors" he was claiming.

And his reasoning style is pure truther. Which is why I get frustrated/irritated when debunkers sink to using the same truther tricks against him.

If his claims - technical OR psychological - warrant rebuttal them why can we not do it by valid argument?

Resorting to truther tricks will never be "valid argument".

So I have repeatedly stated the following and in many ways:
1) I respect his technical research;
2) (Like most members here) I loathe his offensive style, his use of lies by innuendo and his direct goading of members either individually or collectively;
3) And his logic is crap mainly due to "black and whiting" - all or nothing" - false forces binary "yes or no" when the issues are not of that structure.
 
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We can all learn to never mix engineering with conspiracy theories.

Can you imagine how different this thread would be if it was in a technical forum?
Agreed but take care that we don't re-awaken that nasty bit of trickery that says "If it is not conspiracy it shouldn't be here".

..selectively directed against alleged "truthers" of course.

The forum policy was and remains "All 9/11 related matters go here". And, if we want to ban technical discussion it has to be banned for everyone. Not just alleged truthers when some debunkers cannot rebut the truther claims.

So away with the "Microspheres" and "Millette Dust Study"
threads for starters.

...just to censor M_T??? I think not. ;)
 
Quite frankly, I don't give a damn that M_T took 12 years of "extensive" "Technical work" to arrive at a mechanism that competent engineers and architects arrived at within hours of the collapse. I don't even mind your defense of that work, although it was extremely slow in coming and packages the old as new and singularly his own.
What I do mind is defense of his invented, and apparently confusing and possibly misleading terminology of something new, in the face of experienced structural engineers objections and evidence to the contrary.
Quite frankly, every discipline of engineering has its own terminology, understood by all the folks in that field, and at best understood as modified gibberish by even excellent engineers in other fields. I am a structures (as opposed to structurAL) engineer. I will bow to the expertise of engineers in the field of buildings, and as an old codger myself, get a little upset when other old codgers take the younger guys in a different field than their own to task over terminology and the specifics of their chosen profession--and especially so when a foreign National castigates US Engineers over terminology, codes, and designs of things built in the US.
 
Agreed but take care that we don't re-awaken that nasty bit of trickery that says "If it is not conspiracy it shouldn't be here".

..selectively directed against alleged "truthers" of course.

The forum policy was and remains "All 9/11 related matters go here". And, if we want to ban technical discussion it has to be banned for everyone. Not just alleged truthers when some debunkers cannot rebut the truther claims.

So away with the "Microspheres" and "Millette Dust Study"
threads for starters.

...just to censor M_T??? I think not. ;)


Of course.


October 26, 2010: WTC 1 Feature List, WTC 2 Feature List merged

This thread was merged together and moved out of the 9-11 sub-forum.

Many of the elements linked in the OP later became part of the most accurate mapping of the true WTC1 and 2 initiation movement existing anywhere.



Dave Rogers also suggested this thread be removed from this sub-forum on the first page of this thread.
 
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I actually posted about the conflation of these two parts of the collapse sequence. Truthers do it all the time. Just look at psykeyhacker's paper ring and washers model. THAT claims to demonstrate that the official collapse progression could not occur yet its patently a model that models only forces directed onto vertical load carrying structures, i.e. columns.

Its a nice model that has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the towers.


These are some interesting exchanges I have had on the subject of the latter Bazant papers and the WTC collapses:




Exchange with David Benson, Frank Greening and OneWhiteEye about the Bazant papers in 2009 at this link.


1-D Crush up/down scenarios run by OneWhiteEye in 2009, 2010 at this link.


OOS propagation model posted in JREF in 2010 at this link with comments continuing into 2014, which branched into 2 threads about Bazant, collapse mode and ROOSD: Bazant's crush-down/crush-up model and Applicability of Bazant's model to the real world .





The first 5 pages of the OOS model thread show how various people perceived the relationship between Bazant's papers and the actual WTC1, 2 collapse progression modes at that time.


This is describing the vertical progression, NOT the collapse initiation.

I am not conflating these two aspects of the collapses.:(

Not you, but confusion is the rule, not the exception in this case. Anyone can start reading posts from the above links to verify that confusion is the rule, not the exception.
 
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Not you, but confusion is the rule, not the exception in this case. Anyone can start reading posts from the above links to verify that confusion is the rule, not the exception.

Well, in this thread, on this forum, I get it, ozeco41 gets it, JSO gets it, DGM gets it, Newton's Bit gets it, rwguinn gets it, pgimeno gets it and beachnut gets it.Obviously FEMA gets it, and so does NIST

Where's the beef? just tfk?


BTW, Yes, you get slammed for being a truther. You still believe in controlled demolitions. do you not? If so then you fit the label, do you not?

Had you simply written a paper, devoid of emotive phrases and psychoanalysis of everyone else, something strictly technical, you'd have received a better reception. However, you CHOSE to begin by slamming people for their perceptions. Can you not see how you poisoned you own well?

If someone says to me "you're an idiot, here's $100", I'm going to tell them to perform a sexual act on themselves that cannot, technically, be done, and refuse the money. Yes, the best I could do for my own well being would be to take the money and walk away satisfied at having $100 more than I had before, but that's just not going to happen.

Do you understand the analogy?
 
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My apologies. I really don't understand why you would think that pancake means something ordered and non-chaotic then. :confused:

I had two of my grandchildren staying with us for five days at our cottage last week.:) "What do you want for breakfast?" "Pancakes", every day. Papa of course obliges. I have quite a lot of experience with pancakes therefore, and unless I really #### it up they tend to be a flat, single mass object that when dropped flat, hit the plate or table flat. In fact both kids always wanted two (the younger one is 2 y/o and knows it, so everything has to be in twos), and when one flapjack is dropped onto the other they end up as one lying flat on top of the other.

So the imagery of a "pancake collapse" simply does not work for me.:D
 
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Wow, I had forgotten just how clearly Major_Tom was eviscerated at the start of this thread.
 
I had two of my grandchildren staying with us for five days at our cottage last week.:) "What do you want for breakfast?" "Pancakes", every day. Papa of course obliges. I have quite a lot of experience with pancakes therefore, and unless I really #### it up they tend to be a flat, single mass object that when dropped flat, hit the plate or table flat. In fact both kids always wanted two (the younger one is 2 y/o and knows it, so everything has to be in twos), and when one flapjack is dropped onto the other they end up as one lying flat on top of the other.

So the imagery of a "pancake collapse" simply does not work for me.:D

This is the correct understanding of the so called pancake collapse. If you recall a presentation on PBS or National Geographic TV or something way back when they produced an animation where the slabs dropped as integral square doughnuts and I believe they call that a pancake collapse. Obviously it was "progressive" because the top fell on the one below and so on... it was a 4D event.

A vertical avalanche of pouring gravel down a chute is also progressive if you track any piece of gravel... it moves down over time progressing from the top to the bottom driven by gravity.

The key distinction and why pancake is wrong is because the slabs did not come down as integral components... they came down (feel) as chunks of slabs and contents... and obviously since they had separated into chunks by being fracture they came down separately..like driving a sledge hammer into a glass table... it breaks and all the pieces of glass drop down

Progressive also refers to the fact that the failure progressed down the tower over time... well DUH...

I like pancakes on Sunday too! And so do the granddaughters...
 
beachnut;10113953 [qimg said:
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/keynansubwoofer2.jpg[/qimg]
Yes, we usually have to tidy the entire house and grounds after a project.
What exactly is the relevance of a 5 year old pic from an old thread btw?
 
What exactly is the relevance of a 5 year old pic from an old thread btw?
My photo, old? Hard to have real time photos not be old, a second or years; what is your point...

Interesting, if you did as much research on 911 as you do on my old photo, you would not be fooled by the lie of CD. Was that the point, the relevance, to see if you can do research, but can't apply that to 911.

What is the point of 911 truth's dumbed down failed 13th year of CD fantasy claims?

It is still working, much more useful than failed CD claims, and a model of no conclusion; still producing low frequency engineering excellence; something you don't find in 911 truth; excellence and engineering.
DSC_1276rttcrop.jpg
Zero days old - happy - when will 911 truth followers, the faith based followers, post some "new" CD evidence. lol - completed, still working for 5 7 years, it was five years ago? It could be a 7 year old photo. 911 truth research, never right.
Got some evidence yet. 13 years and nothing but woo from 911 truth. What is the relevance of 911 truth failed CD? 13 years coming up, and 911 truth continues a perfect record of fail, their only product.
 
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My photo, old? Hard to have real time photos not be old, a second or years; what is your point...
It was just weird that you were alluding to the night before and posted a 5 year old photo, that's all. Bit strange looking from the back for a 2 x 12, what's it crossed over at? Sorry for being OT.
 
It was just weird that you were alluding to the night before and posted a 5 year old photo, that's all. Bit strange looking from the back for a 2 x 12, what's it crossed over at? Sorry for being OT.

Weird, we are in a sub-forum for the biggest failed fantasy movement in history, and a sub-woofer is weird.

70 - , using the output from the receiver, surrounds are AR9s, and mains have dual 10s, center has dual 10s, even the AR9s have dual 11s. Makes 12 woofers 10 and over...
 
M_T, this is what you said four years ago, on page 1:

Thanks, Dave. The paper seems pretty simple, really. It does belong here because once the model is accepted, we can examine conclusions in view of CD. Please give me some time to show that. I need to get through the initial resistance first.

Many posts here are about actual mechanisms of perimeter columns being ejected and other actual mechanisms involved in initiation and progression. This paper certainly contributes to that discussion.

I agree with you that the true questions are in initiation and a couple of features of progression I'll introduce later, the topic of my second paper not yet released. If this first paper is not understood, we won't know where to focus attention to approach the CD question.

I'm probably not the only one who sensed some sort of set-up there. If you're sure your model is accurate and you think you have found something relevant to CD, why insist that everyone had to accept ROOSD before presenting it?

So I'll ask again: Do you believe you have found something of significance, and if so, what is it?
 
I'm probably not the only one who sensed some sort of set-up there. If you're sure your model is accurate and you think you have found something relevant to CD, why insist that everyone had to accept ROOSD before presenting it?

So I'll ask again: Do you believe you have found something of significance, and if so, what is it?

Also goes to my comments in post #1951.

Seems many people here do, in fact, understand and accept "vertical avalanche"/"ROOSD", or whatever one wishes to label it. Its been in play since both FEMA and NIST described it well before MT did so. Most have no problem with a zonal failure at initiation either, in fact FEMA and NIST both describe the antenna as moving before the facade, iirc.

Its a given that MT will never convince everybody of every detail he believes in. In all of history one would be hard pressed to find an example of no dissenting opinion on any event or idea one looks at. That's a non-starter, so its difficult to understand why he keeps harping away that the collapse sequence is misunderstood, that he's so misunderstood.

IF MT believes he can make a case for directed demolition of any part of the collapses of either or both towers then the time to do so is now, in fact its been so for many months or years now.
Hopefully this would be a strictly technical arguement and will be devoid of amatuer psychobabble.
 
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IF MT believes he can make a case for directed demolition of any part of the collapses of either or both towers then the time to do so is now, in fact its been so for many months or years now.
Hopefully this would be a strictly technical arguement and will be devoid of amatuer psychobabble.

I have no idea of Tom's agenda... or what his position with regards to CD is for that matter... assuming he stated a position years back on this forum.

I hadn't noticed anyone but femr2 and Tom and a few others drilling down to analyze the vids and stills. I find Tom's support in this material for his ROOSD explanation compelling. I never associated ROOSD with anything other than the collapse phase... as distinct from the initiation or what caused the collapse. I don't think ROOSD purports to endorse CD during the collapse phase. This work is certainly more robust than "the pancake theory" or "global collapse" or "progressive collapse".

It does shed light on how the massive structure came undone.. ie the growing and gather mass of floor slabs and contents confined within the cage of the facade undoing the frame.

My sense is that many people wanted to understand how such massive structures could essentially "destroy themselves" and ROOSD is, in my opinion an not difficult concept to understand... because it is based not on theoretical math computations... but the real world movement of the building parts as it came down. I think THIS is the value of ROOSD.

Why are people so intent on bickering with Tom about the initiation when ROOSD has nothing to do with that.

I've always maintained that if one could demonstrate how heat and mechanical damage released the "threshold" mass to drive ROOSD... it would dispel the notion that only some sort of CD could have started it.

I think the collapse phase has been "de mystified" but the initiation is still shrouded in fog. And we might never know... but that is the discussion which would interest me... perhaps not others... who are content with... massive unfought fires and mechanical damage were sufficient to do in the towers.
 
JSanderO, I agree with all you said.
However , Tom complains that so many people don't understand. Well, I do, you do, all the others I listed do.
We could debate with those few who reject it, or move on.

Tom stated he would later discuss the implications of his mappings as it applies to demolition. Rather than do so, and yes that would be a new thread, he continues instead to complain that too many people don't understand the progression or his mappings and that he is taken to task harshly by some for being a truther... yada yada yada.

I am all for a discussion of CD in the towers. Just getting tired of waiting for him to start one. Its time to produce or get off the soapbox. ( in paraphrase of the more colourful version)
 
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