OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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The only bugaboo I have is the use of the term "pancake". It incorrectly implies that floors collapsed simultaneously across the entire area of each floor. There is little chance that happened at any moment through the entire collapse, its 1D thinking, an approximation at best.
Completely agree on the false implication. Are you aware of Major_Toms research into "zones" which confirms you point.

I'll dig up a link if you need it. But you are right according to the visual record.

Also the "1D" heresy again raises its head. Doubt that we will ever overcome that at this late stage of the discussions.
 
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Completely agree on the false implication. Are you aware of Major_Toms research into "zones" which confirms you point.

I'll dig up a link if you need it. But you are right according to the visual record.

Also the "1D" heresy again raises its head. Doubt that we will ever overcome that at this late stage of the discussions.

JDH's point is very critical to understand then "non pancake" nature of ROOSD or the vertical avalanche or whatever moniker this is given. In order for the so called "pancake" to drop... an entire floor slab of almost an acre...each connection of the slab would have to fail simultaneously freeing the slab to descend. This clearly is absurd and the only way this could happen is if some how the slab was uniformly overloaded so that each truss connection was stressed beyond its ultimate yield strength. So what scenario can place so much uniform load on the slabs?

You could also uniformly weaken each truss connection perhaps by warping of the trusses from maybe heat. But considering the geometry of the square doughnut getting a uniform failure at each connection again makes no logical sense.

You could have all the facade bulge outward shearing the truss connections... and then leaving the slabs cantilevered from the core's perimeter belt girder which might fail at one causing the slab to drop as uniform plat. We didn't see that bulge and there is no mechanism to produce this either.

The real world situation saw LOCAL overloading of portions of the slab which broke free and dropped. The local process of overloading spread rapidly over a short span of time... until all the floor was destroyed and had dropped in chunks. This included the contents on the floor slabs.

The real world saw the entire floor footprint destroyed by the assault of mass from above and this mass (local) represented threshold level of force to destroy what it descended on... And as Tom's work reveals there were clearly zones of the local floor footprint destruction which raced ahead of others... but the time difference was rather small. No floor area or zone managed to stay intact connected the the belt girder or the facade and there were likely different mechanism in play which facilitated the floor's break up and loss of integrity. In a short order the mass was gathering and aggregated.. funneled/directed by the cage of the facade. The 3 story nature of the core columns probably cause involvement over multiple floors as well.

ROOSD has absolutely nothing to do with the capacity of the columns. But it did lead to leaving the columns without adequate bracing to remain stable... and they fell afterwards.

I don't recall this sort of portrayal by any "experts" in describing a pancake or progressive collapse. Granted there was no language or simply catch phrase to describe what occurred. To me it was similar to the destructive chaos of an avalanche or flow of mass downward. But heck... sure we could see the wave of destruction move from the top to the bottom.. it took time and so it "progressed". Very broad language... not descriptive or helpful in understanding... and pancake collapse was simply inaccurate and impossible. This was no reverse lift slab process.

Why the resistance to accepting this very logical description is the mystery... or why the "experts" could not see it and describe it is another mystery and had to come up with calcs such as Mr B's. A huge distraction really regardless if his math was correct.

It wasn't the columns fellas .. it was the floors and the engineering design of them.
 
Completely agree on the false implication. Are you aware of Major_Toms research into "zones" which confirms you point.

I'll dig up a link if you need it. But you are right according to the visual record.

Also the "1D" heresy again raises its head. Doubt that we will ever overcome that at this late stage of the discussions.

Yes, I read MTs paper concerning the sequence of collapse observable from the outside, and his extrapolation as to what that implies was happening inside.
I stopped shortly after those parts of the paper. His psychology musings leave me cold.
 
Interestingly enough, that's how it's depicted in the documentary. Showing individual trusses failing can only mean that the floor mass was broken up. After-all, they were integral. ;)

Which came first.... the chicken or the egg?
 
I think you're attributing the "pancake model" that FEMA came up with to describe collapse initiation with "pancake" as a term to describe collapse progression. It's two different things.

Ok, but its still imprecise. It was a rather tilted and crumbly pancake.
To me that's just a nitpick. You can imagine it as eight simultaneous pancake collapses(*) at the same time if you prefer, or eight Ronan Points - one per floor assembly (corners + centers) or whatever the number, but the mechanism is still pancake collapse.

(*) Defining pancake collapse as a cascade vertical progressive collapse where each floor fails because of being overwhelmed and combines with the rest of the weight to make the next fail as well.
 
To me that's just a nitpick. You can imagine it as eight simultaneous pancake collapses(*) at the same time if you prefer, or eight Ronan Points - one per floor assembly (corners + centers) or whatever the number, but the mechanism is still pancake collapse.

(*) Defining pancake collapse as a cascade vertical progressive collapse where each floor fails because of being overwhelmed and combines with the rest of the weight to make the next fail as well.

I suppose, personally it grates.

JSOs post 1926 describes my feelings on this very well.

If one simply wants to talk to engineers who recognize that "pancake collapse" is an approximation, a short hand description, no problem.
OTOH, so many laypersons will take this as a literal description and, as outlined by JSO, that looks like nonsense, which leads to "how stupid do they think we are, even a lay person can see that this official pronouncement is a lie". Why play into trutherism memes when its so very much not neccessary?
 
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I think you're attributing the "pancake model" that FEMA came up with to describe collapse initiation with "pancake" as a term to describe collapse progression. It's two different things.

I actually posted about the conflation of these two parts of the collapse sequence. Truthers do it all the time. Just look at psykeyhacker's paper ring and washers model. THAT claims to demonstrate that the official collapse progression could not occur yet its patently a model that models only forces directed onto vertical load carrying structures, i.e. columns.

Its a nice model that has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the towers.

However, from the FEMA report quoted by me in post 1918
Once collapse initiated, much of this potential energy was rapidly converted into kinetic energy. As the large mass of the collapsing floors above accelerated and impacted on the floors below, it caused an immediate progressive series of floor failures, punching each in turn onto the floor below, accelerating as the sequence progressed. As the floors collapsed, this left tall freestanding portions of the exterior wall and possibly central core columns. As the unsupported height of these freestanding exterior wall elements increased, they buckled at the bolted column splice connections, and also collapsed. Perimeter walls of the building seem to have peeled off and fallen directly away from the building face, while portions of the core fell in a somewhat random manner. The perimeter walls broke apart at the bolted connections, allowing individual prefabricated units that formed the wall or, in some cases, large assemblies of these units to fall to the street and onto neighboring buildings below.

hilite mine
This is describing the vertical progression, NOT the collapse initiation.

I am not conflating these two aspects of the collapses.:(
 
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I suppose, personally it grates.

JSOs post 1926 describes my feelings on this very well.

If one simply wants to talk to engineers who recognize that "pancake collapse" is an approximation, a short hand description, no problem.
OTOH, so many laypersons will take this as a literal description and, as outlined by JSO, that looks like nonsense, which leads to "how stupid do they think we are, even a lay person can see that this official pronouncement is a lie". Why play into trutherism memes when its so very much not neccessary?
The first thing people should do in this case is ignore Bazants work. It was never intended to explain anything to a laymen. :)
 
The first thing people should do in this case is ignore Bazants work. It was never intended to explain anything to a laymen. :)

Yes. Given the math and technical speech in his papers it should be obvious what the intended audience was. Interpretation by many lay persons, or politically blinded engineers, is so patently wrong.
 
Yes. Given the math and technical speech in his papers it should be obvious what the intended audience was. Interpretation by many lay persons, or politically blinded engineers, is so patently wrong.
For what it's worth, the NIST reports also fall into the same category. ;)
 
For what it's worth, the NIST reports also fall into the same category. ;)

Precisely... and why a basic understanding civil engineering... the particular designs of the towers... and careful observation is all one needs to "understand" what is taking place. It's really intuitive if one opens one's eyes and mind.

Maths and simulation models fail the "public" for different reasons... the former does not even describe what occurred and the later gets reduced to dumb concepts like falling pancakes. And then there is the fool's errand to try to do some sort of monster FEA simulation GIF which will be a fail because the real time data to input is not there... it's mostly made up... just like the inane focus on a single beam seat and walking girder in 7wtc.

Well... all the discussions have been interesting and one can learn about physics, engineering and psychology... or not.
 
Precisely... and why a basic understanding civil engineering... the particular designs of the towers... and careful observation is all one needs to "understand" what is taking place. It's really intuitive if one opens one's eyes and mind.

Maths and simulation models fail the "public" for different reasons... the former does not even describe what occurred and the later gets reduced to dumb concepts like falling pancakes. And then there is the fool's errand to try to do some sort of monster FEA simulation GIF which will be a fail because the real time data to input is not there... it's mostly made up... just like the inane focus on a single beam seat and walking girder in 7wtc.

Well... all the discussions have been interesting and one can learn about physics, engineering and psychology... or not.
We can all learn to never mix engineering with conspiracy theories.

Can you imagine how different this thread would be if it was in a technical forum?

You mention this was not talked about that much back when it first happened. You also have to remember that internet discussion forums were few and far between back then. It really shouldn't be that surprising that technical discussions are hard to find on the internet. In fact, Bazant's first paper wasn't on the internet for sometime after it was published (unless you subscribed to the journal).
 
This is a rather silly response and parsing of words. It sounds more like you have a bone to pick with Tom than with his work.

Words have meaning. Major_Tom's acronym falsely leads actual industry professionals astray. That's a problem born because he's ignorant of actual industry standards. It's not a silly parsing of words, it's reading the words for what their actual definitions are.

The twin towers design at the time was very unique in that the engineers removed the interior columns... placing them in a structure facade creating column free rentable space outside the core.

Oh geez. The engineers didn't remove columns. There is no rulebook that describes "how to lay out framing in a skyscraper". There is no building code rule that states these interior columns you think were removed were required. And most importantly, there is no engineering principle in existence now, or when the towers were designed, that stated that such columns are necessary for any reason.

The engineers didn't move the columns to the exterior, either. A small column spacing in a moment frame makes the frame stronger and the building stiffer. This is common practice in tall construction (especially today).

The engineers of WTC1&2 engineered a system (correctly) with long spans. One of the primary structural virtues of using long span flooring is that it added additional dead load to the lateral force resisting system. That in turn reduces the amount of steel required in the LFRS, the strength of connections required, and mostly importantly it reduces the amount of uplift the foundations are required to resist. It's a good system. A conventional framed system, like say the Empire State Building, requires interior moment frames.

Now the reason why such long spans are uncommon is that it is generally uneconomical. The strength required for the trusses is directly related to the square of the length, the stiffness required increases with length^4. However, the WTC contractors were assembling large sections of floor before craning it into place. This offset much of the economic penalties.

It has nothing to do with collapse propagation.

Any interior partitions or office landscape (which originated at the time) played no role in structural integrity of the building and were simply superimposed dead loads.

Do you enjoy parroting other peoples remarks?

The acronym is fine for anyone who can understand how this "hull and core" concept differs from a standard high rise frame with a grid of columns.

The acronym is fine so long as the people using it describe how the words in the acronym don't actually mean what everyone in the industry thinks they mean.

A collapse in a standard frame would likely be prevented from propagating laterally and be confined with the bay where it occurred. In the WTC design without bays to limit the lateral propagation the collapse is prone to spread and involve the entire column free floor area outside the core. I believe this is a key element of ROOSD... and something that the term "progression floor collapse" does not reflect.

That's BS.

You want to play like an expert and make these wild ass claims, then prove that the null hypothesis is false. Show, using rigorous engineering analysis, that a building framed with more conventional spans, would not collapse under the same conditions.

Now, I've read thoroughly read the building code, the AISC Manual of Construction (including the lovely sections after the Specification) and the AISC Design Guides. Nothing in them states anything about this supposed problem you've identified. I've also polled all the structural engineers I've worked with (and a fair number of additional ones) about the WTC collapses. Every single one of them was amazed at how long the buildings stood. Every. Single. One. They attribute this remarkable feat to the unusual design, the same design you claim led to the towers demise. Now, who am I going to believe? Dozens of my own peers or a guy on the internet who claimed to know how to calculate a radius of gyration, but did so in a laughably incorrect manner?

Yea, I'm gonna go with my peers.
 
I actually posted about the conflation of these two parts of the collapse sequence. Truthers do it all the time. Just look at psykeyhacker's paper ring and washers model. THAT claims to demonstrate that the official collapse progression could not occur yet its patently a model that models only forces directed onto vertical load carrying structures, i.e. columns.

Its a nice model that has absolutely nothing to do with what happened in the towers.

However, from the FEMA report quoted by me in post 1918


hilite mine
This is describing the vertical progression, NOT the collapse initiation.

I am not conflating these two aspects of the collapses.:(

My apologies. I really don't understand why you would think that pancake means something ordered and non-chaotic then. :confused:
 
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