Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[JayUtah]

"Slug" also refers to the remnants of a bullet that has been fired and come to rest in or beyond its target. My Navy revolver fired spherical lead projectiles, which could be considered "slugs" but were most often called "balls." "Bullet" generally refers to the aptly-named bullet-shaped projectile, but there is no strictly maintained nomenclature.

"Shell," for example, refers to a number of contradictory concepts. A shotgun "shell" is the entire package of casing, propellant, and shot. An artillery "shell" is the projectile that flies toward the target and explodes. For small arms, the "shell" is the spent casing, although in that context "shell casing" is more accurate.

 

[I Ratant]

...

I guess you probably interpret this the same way I do: that the "extensive experience" earlier claim was a bluff. As I said earlier, growing up in the "lawless" state of Kansas, I went frequently to the ROTC rifle range, which was in the fully enclosed basement of the ROTC building on the college campus. If there was any lingering smell of gunpowder, it was dwarfed by the lingering smell of mildew. I've owned and fired dozens of firearms in my lifetime, of all types. I don't presently own any, have no need to own any, and live in a place (even the "lawless" American West) where discharging firearms within the city limits is forbidden. But I don't recall the smell of gunpowder as especially strong, especially pervasive, or especially persistent.

.
Way back when, the CUA AFROTC rifle team.. I'm the skinny guy on the right... 1957.. we competed against UVA, UMD, USMA, USNA, all of the venues being indoors, with 1000s of shots during a competition. No recollection of any odo(u)r of gunsmoke.
And...sometime later, bulging a bit... 1994, shooting a Carcano 91/38, 6.5 cal., Ordnance Optics scope just like LHOLN used to shoot JFK from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

While I agree that this entire odor (or "odour" if you insist) is a red herring, shifting burden of proof, and irrelevant when faced with the entire body of evidence, the writer in me is curious about the smell lingering. In this vein I propose the following test methodology:

I propose to fire 5 rifle rounds from inside my garage out through an access portal in the rafter area. For safety I will pull the bullets from the cartridges and replace them with paper wads so the powder will burn correctly (pressure is required). I will leave the acces portal open and the man door closed.

After firing one of two things will happen first: the cops will show up or Mrs Gnomon will arrive at a time designated to simulate the delay between the shooting of Kennedy and the arrival of cops on the 6th floor. If cops or Mrs Gnomon observe and report an odor of gunfire or not I will report the results. Neither the cops nor mrs g will know in advance that a weapon has been fired in the area.

Admitted differences between this test and the JFK shooting:
1- my rifle is a Savage 30-06, a larger caliber than the 6.5mm Carcano
2- "Carcano" ammo used a weird triple base smokeless powder with stuff like mineral oil to slow and cool the burn. Modern ammo uses double base powder with grain shape to control burn speed. Chemically the powders should produce the same residue well enough for a sniff test.
3- my garage is not a book depository and is not 7 stories tall. Airflow in and around the structure will not be identical.
4- I'm not in Texas and it isn't November, so temperature and humidity will differ.

The goal of the test is to discover if a person could smell inside a structure that a rifle had been fired out a window from within a structure after a specified amount of time. Most of the residue will be outside, with only the shells, dirty rifle and whatever gasses escape the breech while cycling the bolt between rounds.

Are there any objections or suggested modifications to the proposed test?

 

[I Ratant]

Why do this?
Whether or not there is a discernible odor, the lack of any note towards that odor still remains in the official record.
"Should have been" is only 51 years out of date hindsight and is just a brain fart
no how you look at it.

 

[manifesto]

Stundied. Nicely done.

I'm honoured. Thank you.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

As I say, writerly curiosity drives me. I'd like to know how much combustion gas would be inside the building and how quickly the smell would dissipate below average person's sensory threshold.

It also occurs to me that if the "shoulda been a smell" is valid for the shooters nest it would also be true for any and all co-conspirator or alternative firing positions, of which there are zero accounts.

 

[manifesto]

While I agree that this entire odor (or "odour" if you insist) is a red herring, shifting burden of proof, and irrelevant when faced with the entire body of evidence, the writer in me is curious about the smell lingering. In this vein I propose the following test methodology:

I propose to fire 5 rifle rounds from inside my garage out through an access portal in the rafter area. For safety I will pull the bullets from the cartridges and replace them with paper wads so the powder will burn correctly (pressure is required). I will leave the acces portal open and the man door closed.

After firing one of two things will happen first: the cops will show up or Mrs Gnomon will arrive at a time designated to simulate the delay between the shooting of Kennedy and the arrival of cops on the 6th floor. If cops or Mrs Gnomon observe and report an odor of gunfire or not I will report the results. Neither the cops nor mrs g will know in advance that a weapon has been fired in the area.

Admitted differences between this test and the JFK shooting:
1- my rifle is a Savage 30-06, a larger caliber than the 6.5mm Carcano
2- "Carcano" ammo used a weird triple base smokeless powder with stuff like mineral oil to slow and cool the burn. Modern ammo uses double base powder with grain shape to control burn speed. Chemically the powders should produce the same residue well enough for a sniff test.
3- my garage is not a book depository and is not 7 stories tall. Airflow in and around the structure will not be identical.
4- I'm not in Texas and it isn't November, so temperature and humidity will differ.

The goal of the test is to discover if a person could smell inside a structure that a rifle had been fired out a window from within a structure after a specified amount of time. Most of the residue will be outside, with only the shells, dirty rifle and whatever gasses escape the breech while cycling the bolt between rounds.

Are there any objections or suggested modifications to the proposed test?

This is starting to get really funny. I'm laughing so hard.

 

[JayUtah]

This is starting to get really funny. I'm laughing so hard.

When you're finished laughing, perhaps you can answer the rebuttals that have essentially demolished your argument.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

This is starting to get really funny. I'm laughing so hard.

Why is it funny to you? Because you are trolling and chain yanking and think you are making us dance your tune? Or because you suddenly realize your poorly conceived sniff test would actually prove you wrong and you don't want to admit it yet?

If you have no objections to the above methodology you don't get to argue with the results. Now or never, so I can set this up before Mrs comes home from work.

 

[JayUtah]

As I say, writerly curiosity drives me.

That's fair enough. For me, I've spent large amounts of time around firearms of all types and from all periods of history. Therefore in terms of supporting my belief, I feel I've already done enough experimentation. I can't and shouldn't speak for others.

In the larger sense, the proposition that the investigating officers should have checked for the smell of gunpowder in the TSBD, and it's suspicious that they didn't, is just the latest red herring in the vast ocean of nitpicks by which the JFK conspiracy community hope to distract from the vast body of evidence in favor of Oswald.

 

[turingtest]

This is starting to get really funny. I'm laughing so hard.

I understand the reaction- it's the same one I had when I pictured someone like you on a (hypothetical) jury trying Oswald, after days of watching the sheer mass of circumstantial evidence rolling over him, and, having no idea of what a "reasonable doubt" is, suddenly standing and shouting (heroically), "wait! Did anyone smell gunpowder in the TSBD?" And the scene ends with the judge banging his gavel and crying "he's right! Free the prisoner!!" Fade out on our modest hero clucking "ah, tweren't nuthin' atall" in TV interviews and savoring the book deals sure to follow- all because He Solved The Crime Of The Century When Everyone Else Was Fooled.

 

[RoboTimbo]

While I agree that this entire odor (or "odour" if you insist) is a red herring, shifting burden of proof, and irrelevant when faced with the entire body of evidence, the writer in me is curious about the smell lingering. In this vein I propose the following test methodology:

I propose to fire 5 rifle rounds from inside my garage out through an access portal in the rafter area. For safety I will pull the bullets from the cartridges and replace them with paper wads so the powder will burn correctly (pressure is required). I will leave the acces portal open and the man door closed.

After firing one of two things will happen first: the cops will show up or Mrs Gnomon will arrive at a time designated to simulate the delay between the shooting of Kennedy and the arrival of cops on the 6th floor. If cops or Mrs Gnomon observe and report an odor of gunfire or not I will report the results. Neither the cops nor mrs g will know in advance that a weapon has been fired in the area.

Admitted differences between this test and the JFK shooting:
1- my rifle is a Savage 30-06, a larger caliber than the 6.5mm Carcano
2- "Carcano" ammo used a weird triple base smokeless powder with stuff like mineral oil to slow and cool the burn. Modern ammo uses double base powder with grain shape to control burn speed. Chemically the powders should produce the same residue well enough for a sniff test.
3- my garage is not a book depository and is not 7 stories tall. Airflow in and around the structure will not be identical.
4- I'm not in Texas and it isn't November, so temperature and humidity will differ.

The goal of the test is to discover if a person could smell inside a structure that a rifle had been fired out a window from within a structure after a specified amount of time. Most of the residue will be outside, with only the shells, dirty rifle and whatever gasses escape the breech while cycling the bolt between rounds.

Are there any objections or suggested modifications to the proposed test?

Unfortunately, you'll need to convincingly simulate the assassination of some high placed official so that the responding officers are in the same heightened sense of fight or flight body response mode. See if they stop to sniff the air as they enter.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Unfortunately, you'll need to convincingly simulate the assassination of some high placed official so that the responding officers are in the same heightened sense of fight or flight body response mode. See if they stop to sniff the air as they enter.

There are an infinite number of possible objections a dishonest person could use to reject the results, but in this case I think cops in my town responding to a "possible shots fired" call might very well trigger on the visually alarming condition of my back yard.

 

[RoboTimbo]

manifesto, you didn't answer this yet.

No. I believe it's the Dallas PD's responsibility to investigate this very real possibility.

Possibility of what?

 

[Tomtomkent]

manifesto, you didn't answer this yet.

There having been a smell.

 

[Major Major]

I understand the reaction- it's the same one I had when I pictured someone like you on a (hypothetical) jury trying Oswald, after days of watching the sheer mass of circumstantial evidence rolling over him, and, having no idea of what a "reasonable doubt" is, suddenly standing and shouting (heroically), "wait! Did anyone smell gunpowder in the TSBD?" And the scene ends with the judge banging his gavel and crying "he's right! Free the prisoner!!" Fade out on our modest hero clucking "ah, tweren't nuthin' atall" in TV interviews and savoring the book deals sure to follow- all because He Solved The Crime Of The Century When Everyone Else Was Fooled.

Someone's been seeing Twelve Angry Men too much, wanting to be Heroic Juror Number Eight valiantly proposing alternative explanations for every bit of evidence, and since there's an alternative explanation, therefore Reasonable Doubt and Not Guilty.

 

[Belz...]

No time nor resources. Take it or leave it.

Speculating is more fun, anyway.

 

[Belz...]

I can't convince anybody that there should be a smell without a proper investigation.

This should be your first clue that you shouldn't be "almost certain" of your claim, then.

I'm trying to convince you that a proper investigation should be performed.

By someone else in order to prove you wrong. That's where the shifting of the burden of proof occurs.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

I recall the sweet, heady aroma of firing off a roll of caps with my trusty cowboy sidearm back when I was a lad. Then girls came along.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I recall the sweet, heady aroma of firing off a roll of caps with my trusty cowboy sidearm back when I was a lad. Then girls came along.

Yeah, that's a different sweet, heady aroma when you fire off a . . .



Oh never mind.