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God right by virtue of being the creator ?

Belz... said:
Because that's not an answer to my question.
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Wich question? The OP or "So can we agree that the answer to the OP is one of the following"?

In both cases, my answer is certainly not among those theists (especially the Abrahamic ones) would most likely bring forward. Its also not included in the answers you proposed, so, if we are to be restricted to the options you presented, then it was not a valid answer, at least not completely.

I guess Abrahamic theists would most likely adopt some variation of
C) God is always right because he's the creator but no one can explain why.
Its even included in Catholic rites; I remember hearing priests saying something along these lines - they are "mysteries".

Personally, I think that even if there is some sort of creator, the sentient creatures created by it have the right to judge its acts and character. Freewill -the very same lame excuse used by Abrahamic theists to explain away these moral and ethics problems- entitles sentient creations to judge their creator based on its acts even if they don't have access to all the information it has.

I don't have all the data the board of directors and the CEO of the company I work at or the government of my country have. I am, however, entitled to judge their actions; I may even follow their commands -sometimes there's no other option- but nothing can stop me from judging and eventually disagreeing.
 
tsig said:
I'd never believe in a god that would create humans.
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Even a god that makes mistakes?

If there is a God, though, if you don't respect what he or she does, you certainly shouldn't have to worship that God, any more than you should have to salute a dictator or pledge allegiance. What decent God would demand it's creation be a bunch of slaves?
 
LSSBB said:
Even a god that makes mistakes?

If there is a God, though, if you don't respect what he or she does, you certainly shouldn't have to worship that God, any more than you should have to salute a dictator or pledge allegiance. What decent God would demand it's creation be a bunch of slaves?
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Massa say we'uns gots the freedom and we'uns can leave the plantation any time we want. Massa also say he will punish us forever if'n we do.

Praise the Massa!!
 
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You said (among other things)

Belz... said:
B) God is always right _and_ he's the creator. His perfection is separate from him being the creator.
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I quoted this because it was my contention back at the beginning. I replied:

arthwollipot said:
Except that only a perfect being can be a creator. He's not perfect by virtue of being the creator, but he couldn't be a creator unless he were perfect.
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Your response was:

Belz... said:
Except that there is no reason to believe this. In a few decades, WE could be the creator, and we'll be far from perfect.
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To which I replied:

arthwollipot said:
Are you suggesting that in a few decades we could create entire universes of our own?

Actually, that's exactly what Mormon theology says.

Of course there's no good reason to believe this. I wasn't arguing that there was.
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And here's where I think we lost the thread. You quoted my first paragraph with your own reply:

Belz... said:
arthwollipot said:
Are you suggesting that in a few decades we could create entire universes of our own?
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I wasn't suggesting, but flat-out saying. Now, it could be centuries away or millenia away instead, or never, but that's not the point of my post. If you wish to address that, it would be dandy.
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It seemed to me that you had cut the rest of my post, which I felt addressed what I saw as the point of your post (which you said would be dandy):

arthwollipot said:
I did:
arthwollipot said:
Of course there's no good reason to believe this. I wasn't arguing that there was.
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Having addressed the point of your post, I figured that you would consider it dandy. But then you said:

Belz... said:
I don't follow. When did I say that you said that we were going to create universes ? That's my speculation.
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Which confused me, because you didn't say that I said that we were going to create universes, and as far as I can tell I never suggested that you did say that. I said that it was Mormon theology that said that people were going to create universes, and I also said that there was no good reason to believe this.

So I'm not quite sure exactly what it is you're asking here. We seem to have some wires crossed somehow.
 
Ugh. Where did I lose you, exactly ? It doesn't follow that a creator need be perfect because we create things all the time and we could theoretically create universes ourselves, and we're far from perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Belz... said:
Ugh. Where did I lose you, exactly ? It doesn't follow that a creator need be perfect because we create things all the time and we could theoretically create universes ourselves, and we're far from perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
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I believe it has been speculated that by causing the right kind of (very) high-energy event, we could trigger a big bang that would generate a new and entirely separate universe.

This could be creation, if only in the sense of triggering a potential.

We would have no control over the contents or progression of this new universe. We would only initiate it.

Maybe that's all God does, as the deists have it.
 
Belz... said:
Ugh. Where did I lose you, exactly ? It doesn't follow that a creator need be perfect because we create things all the time and we could theoretically create universes ourselves, and we're far from perfect by any stretch of the imagination.
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For the creation of ordinary mundane things, yes. But the creation of the universe is a special case.

Theology is rife with special pleading.
 
arthwollipot said:
For the creation of ordinary mundane things, yes. But the creation of the universe is a special case.

Theology is rife with special pleading.
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Yeah but I mean in actual reality. We could create universes accidentally and it wouldn't make us perfect. I realise now you're making someone else's argument, but it's nonsense anyway. :)
 
Belz... said:
So can we agree that the answer to the OP is one of the following:

A) God is always right because he can do anything and might makes right.

B) God is always right _and_ he's the creator. His perfection is separate from him being the creator.

C) God is always right because he's the creator but no one can explain why.
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Right, or not, is relative, it depends on the perspective you adopt. From the human perspective, only (B) is reasonable. (A) is adding an unnecessary claim, that he can do anything. (C) is irrational because it claims that his rightness is by virtue of his being the creator. So if he did not create, or prior to his creation, he would not be, or was not, right.
 
Belz... said:
Yeah but I mean in actual reality. We could create universes accidentally and it wouldn't make us perfect. I realise now you're making someone else's argument, but it's nonsense anyway. :)
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We can rearrange bits of existing matter to make new arrangements. That happens all the time. But the creation of the universe is the creation of matter, energy and spacetime itself.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
 
arthwollipot said:
We can rearrange bits of existing matter to make new arrangements. That happens all the time. But the creation of the universe is the creation of matter, energy and spacetime itself.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.
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But actually that's exactly what might be possible according to modern physics. We'll probably never have the energy or means to cause the compression of space necessary to get the ball rolling, but yes, from there it would create matter and everything.
 
HansMustermann said:
But actually that's exactly what might be possible according to modern physics. We'll probably never have the energy or means to cause the compression of space necessary to get the ball rolling, but yes, from there it would create matter and everything.
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Well, unless creating universes is super easy. If the universe we're in is a random, transient bubble of spacetime, it might actually happen if we misfire the LHC. :p
 
Belz... said:
Well, unless creating universes is super easy. If the universe we're in is a random, transient bubble of spacetime, it might actually happen if we misfire the LHC. :p
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Something like that, yes.
 
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