New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

[JayUtah]

I have a huge file on TWA 800 and there are many problems with the accounts of this accident.

How many aircraft downings -- intentional or accidental -- did you personally participate in investigating prior to studying TWA 800? Much of your evidence is simply the facts presented against a background of personal disbelief. Therefore the foundation of your disbelief needs to be established.

 

[Corsair 115]

You have 96% of the Aircraft recovered and you keep investigating until you find the cause of the spark.

Unless, of course, it simply proves impossible to positively locate the source or cause. That happens sometimes in aircraft accident investigations, and the report has to give the best probable cause for the accident.

The best probable cause for TWA 800, the one that fits best with the myriad of evidence available, and that is of a centre fuel tank explosion.

 

[catsmate]

I have a huge file on TWA 800 and there are many problems with the accounts of this accident.<snip>

We await your theory of exactly what happened.

 

[spooky24]

There is no doubt whatsoever from the physical evidence that the CWT exploded. As to the culprit that produced the spark I believe they could have done a better job trying to locate the malfunction-they didn't for many reasons.

Like 9/11 there is a very limited amount of information that can be studied on the internet. Less than 5% of the available information is on the internet about 9/11 and around 10% for TWA Flight 800. The majority of the internet information is repetitive and has no basis in fact.

This case goes off in so many different directions. As always when dealing with humans emotion can cloud judgement and form gridlock between agencies that are charged with finding conclusions.

Case in point:

I'm not going to name the ship in question however sailors, as well as officers, were angry, humiliated and downright insulted when told the FBI was coming on board to "check the levels of ordnance" to see if any such weapons were missing.

Sailors are of a different breed. Unlike the regular Army I don't have any close contacts, or friends for that matter, from the Navy. They consider themselves better than any other service, and in some ways they are, however they are almost insanely tight as a group-from Commander all the way down to the teenage sailors that make up most of the crew.
The Bureau, knowing the reaction their agents would receive, pleaded up and down the chain of command for the sailors not to interfere with the investigation.

There really is no word to describe how they felt being accused of shooting down a passenger jet-they were no where near to being in range-insulted X 1000 best describes it.

It took all of 10 minutes for an all hands on deck fistfight between the insanely loyal sailors and FBI investigators. When Attorney General Janet Reno tried to intercede it only made both sides angrier than they were and you had officers taking swings at FBI bomb technicians.

Only a direct order, piped over the loud speakers, from the Commander in Chief President Clinton forced the sailors to back down in fear of court marshal by disobeying their commander.

There is a lot more to this as the insanity as it even made it's way up to the JCOS and a reported shoving match between Hugh Shelton and John Shalikashvili.

There are so many side story investigations to TWA 800 and this is just one of many.

 

[thedopefishlives]

There is no doubt whatsoever from the physical evidence that the CWT exploded. As to the culprit that produced the spark I believe they could have done a better job trying to locate the malfunction-they didn't for many reasons.

Like 9/11 there is a very limited amount of information that can be studied on the internet. Less than 5% of the available information is on the internet about 9/11 and around 10% for TWA Flight 800. The majority of the internet information is repetitive and has no basis in fact.

This case goes off in so many different directions. As always when dealing with humans emotion can cloud judgement and form gridlock between agencies that are charged with finding conclusions.

Case in point:

I'm not going to name the ship in question however sailors, as well as officers, were angry, humiliated and downright insulted when told the FBI was coming on board to "check the levels of ordnance" to see if any such weapons were missing.

Sailors are of a different breed. Unlike the regular Army I don't have any close contacts, or friends for that matter, from the Navy. They consider themselves better than any other service, and in some ways they are, however they are almost insanely tight as a group-from Commander all the way down to the teenage sailors that make up most of the crew.
The Bureau, knowing the reaction their agents would receive, pleaded up and down the chain of command for the sailors not to interfere with the investigation.

There really is no word to describe how they felt being accused of shooting down a passenger jet-they were no where near to being in range-insulted X 1000 best describes it.

It took all of 10 minutes for an all hands on deck fistfight between the insanely loyal sailors and FBI investigators. When Attorney General Janet Reno tried to intercede it only made both sides angrier than they were and you had officers taking swings at FBI bomb technicians.

Only a direct order, piped over the loud speakers, from the Commander in Chief President Clinton forced the sailors to back down in fear of court marshal by disobeying their commander.

There is a lot more to this as the insanity as it even made it's way up to the JCOS and a reported shoving match between Hugh Shelton and John Shalikashvili.

There are so many side story investigations to TWA 800 and this is just one of many.

That's the first time I have ever heard that particular yarn. Care to tell us what your source(s) are for it?

 

[LSSBB]

There is no doubt whatsoever from the physical evidence that the CWT exploded. As to the culprit that produced the spark I believe they could have done a better job trying to locate the malfunction-they didn't for many reasons.

Like 9/11 there is a very limited amount of information that can be studied on the internet. Less than 5% of the available information is on the internet about 9/11 and around 10% for TWA Flight 800. The majority of the internet information is repetitive and has no basis in fact.

This case goes off in so many different directions. As always when dealing with humans emotion can cloud judgement and form gridlock between agencies that are charged with finding conclusions.

Case in point:

I'm not going to name the ship in question however sailors, as well as officers, were angry, humiliated and downright insulted when told the FBI was coming on board to "check the levels of ordnance" to see if any such weapons were missing.

Sailors are of a different breed. Unlike the regular Army I don't have any close contacts, or friends for that matter, from the Navy. They consider themselves better than any other service, and in some ways they are, however they are almost insanely tight as a group-from Commander all the way down to the teenage sailors that make up most of the crew.
The Bureau, knowing the reaction their agents would receive, pleaded up and down the chain of command for the sailors not to interfere with the investigation.

There really is no word to describe how they felt being accused of shooting down a passenger jet-they were no where near to being in range-insulted X 1000 best describes it.

It took all of 10 minutes for an all hands on deck fistfight between the insanely loyal sailors and FBI investigators. When Attorney General Janet Reno tried to intercede it only made both sides angrier than they were and you had officers taking swings at FBI bomb technicians.

Only a direct order, piped over the loud speakers, from the Commander in Chief President Clinton forced the sailors to back down in fear of court marshal by disobeying their commander.

There is a lot more to this as the insanity as it even made it's way up to the JCOS and a reported shoving match between Hugh Shelton and John Shalikashvili.

There are so many side story investigations to TWA 800 and this is just one of many.

Why wouldn't you reveal the ship name? How do you expect anyone to believe that story without anything to verify it?

ETA: By the way, for interests of full disclosure, I'm in the US Navy. So is my oldest son. And it ain't no Borg collective. Do you write for Hollywood?

 

[DGM]

Like 9/11 there is a very limited amount of information that can be studied on the internet. Less than 5% of the available information is on the internet about 9/11 and around 10% for TWA Flight 800. The majority of the internet information is repetitive and has no basis in fact.

I'm curious as to where you got this data. The vast majority of data for both of these event is available on the internet. It might not be free and you may have to spend considerable time sorting through large volumes for what you want.

I will agree that lazy Google searches will not yield much more than crap sites now a days.

 

[JayUtah]

Like 9/11 there is a very limited amount of information that can be studied on the internet. Less than 5% of the available information is on the internet about 9/11 and around 10% for TWA Flight 800. The majority of the internet information is repetitive and has no basis in fact.

A fine and debatable representation, however you don't take it anywhere. Are you saying everyone else is getting their information from the internet while you are not? Will you name your sources so they can be fact-checked? What is your basis for believing how other people you don't know may have done their research?

This case goes off in so many different directions. As always when dealing with humans emotion can cloud judgement and form gridlock between agencies that are charged with finding conclusions.

Your claim is that human emotions have clouded the judgment of the investigating agencies. Would you care to cite examples of this cloudy emotion from their official reports and findings in this or any other case?

How do you propose to keep yourself immune from such alleged human shortcomings?

If you claim this case "goes off in so many directions," what procedures, checks, balances, etc. have you employed to make sure the direction you're taking it is the proper one?

Case in point:

I'm not going to name the ship in question...

Then it's an anonymous fairy tale with no evidentiary power. You seem to be trying to argue that you come to this forum with information that only you possess, having assumed everyone else you meet here is just looking up stuff on the internet. And armed with this special insight only you possess, you're able to reach a more defensible conclusion even than the allegedly squabbling agencies who investigated it.

No, it's more likely you refuse to name the ship because you're making all this up out of whole cloth and you fear being fact-checked. The USS Vincennes incident gives us a real picture of how the Navy responds to allegations of shooting down an airliner. It doesn't look anything like the caricature you've painted of the Navy.

So until you're ready to name the ship and identify the source of your story regarding it. there is no obligation to believe it's a true story that you've recounted faithfully.

There are so many side story investigations to TWA 800 and this is just one of many.

And there are many anonymous posters on the internet who make up stuff and appoint themselves supreme investigators without being able to substantiate a lick of what they claim.

I see you moved on to a new claim involving the Navy while ignoring my other questions. Your previous claim was based largely on your expectations for how the investigation of the downing of a large commercial airframe should be investigated. Based on those expectations, you conclude the investigation was improper or incomplete.

I have asked you the foundation for those expectations, which are normally the domain of experts, since your argument rests squarely upon them. Please be so kind as to lay the foundation for your claimed expertise. If there is none, then please retract that argument before you move on to a new one.

 

[Spyke]

Case in point:

I'm not going to name the ship in question however sailors, as well as officers, were angry, humiliated and downright insulted when told the FBI was coming on board to "check the levels of ordnance" to see if any such weapons were missing.

Sailors are of a different breed. Unlike the regular Army I don't have any close contacts, or friends for that matter, from the Navy. They consider themselves better than any other service, and in some ways they are, however they are almost insanely tight as a group-from Commander all the way down to the teenage sailors that make up most of the crew.
The Bureau, knowing the reaction their agents would receive, pleaded up and down the chain of command for the sailors not to interfere with the investigation.

There really is no word to describe how they felt being accused of shooting down a passenger jet-they were no where near to being in range-insulted X 1000 best describes it.

It took all of 10 minutes for an all hands on deck fistfight between the insanely loyal sailors and FBI investigators. When Attorney General Janet Reno tried to intercede it only made both sides angrier than they were and you had officers taking swings at FBI bomb technicians.

Only a direct order, piped over the loud speakers, from the Commander in Chief President Clinton forced the sailors to back down in fear of court marshal by disobeying their commander.

There is a lot more to this as the insanity as it even made it's way up to the JCOS and a reported shoving match between Hugh Shelton and John Shalikashvili.

There are so many side story investigations to TWA 800 and this is just one of many.

Cool story bro.

Lot's of JJ Abrams style "Lens Flare" too?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Split from: New TWA Flight 800 film coming out

Only a direct order, piped over the loud speakers, from the Commander in Chief President Clinton forced the sailors to back down in fear of court marshal by disobeying their commander.

Lol

 

[KDLarsen]

Didn't someone point out, either many, many, many pages ago or in an entirely different thread, that there weren't actually any surface ships anywhere near the scene of the accident, or that the ones that were there were entirely incapable of launching such a missile?

Might even have been a named vessel.

 

[matt.tansy]

Only a direct order, piped over the loud speakers, from the Commander in Chief President Clinton forced the sailors to back down in fear of court marshal by disobeying their commander.

"Ludicrous" doesn't begin to describe the absurdity of such a story.

 

[catsmate]

Didn't someone point out, either many, many, many pages ago or in an entirely different thread, that there weren't actually any surface ships anywhere near the scene of the accident, or that the ones that were there were entirely incapable of launching such a missile?

Might even have been a named vessel.

We went through it in excruciating detail. Ships, subs, missiles, drones....

 

[Tomtomkent]

ETA: By the way, for interests of full disclosure, I'm in the US Navy. So is my oldest son. And it ain't no Borg collective. Do you write for Hollywood?

Even if it were a collective mind, I would expect it from my own fleeting conversations with US Naval personnel (but it seems ignorance is no stumbling block here so allow to continue regardless) a very different result. By and large, if they were so insulted at being accused of murder a "here look at anything you want and try to make that stick" attitude would result, with a desperate need to throw their punches at which ever snivelling traitor had brought shame upon them...

But I guess my story is less exciting and assumes a core of common human decency in most parties. Heck, it requires the sailors not only to think "this was a bad event" but also "how can I help make it right!" Far too complex for modern narrative.

 

[spooky24]

The Autopsy summation comes from The National Archives in Washington DC.

The incidents involving the FBI come from the Naval Archives.

The FBI Vault provided most of the background information and the long study of the 244 eyewitnesses is on level 2 of the Vault in Quantico VA.

The CIA study group that provided the animation of the breakup and the followup of eyewitnesses statements can be accessed by the public by contacted the Agency Archives in Langley, Virginia.

The John Patrick O'Neill Family Foundation provided the outline of the investigation and his public notes.

Sections of the investigation that are not in the public archives can be accessed by making request through the office of your US Senator.

Not a word of any of this is on the internet. This is only 1/4 of my investigative file that is around 1200 pages. Simon & Schuster provided information along with other investigators. Opinions by former FBI personnel can only be cited and internet publication is not allowed.

My paper on particle beam acceleration and TWA Flight 800 is also included.

 

[LSSBB]

The Autopsy summation comes from The National Archives in Washington DC.

The incidents involving the FBI come from the Naval Archives.

The FBI Vault provided most of the background information and the long study of the 244 eyewitnesses is on level 2 of the Vault in Quantico VA.

The CIA study group that provided the animation of the breakup and the followup of eyewitnesses statements can be accessed by the public by contacted the Agency Archives in Langley, Virginia.

The John Patrick O'Neill Family Foundation provided the outline of the investigation and his public notes.

Sections of the investigation that are not in the public archives can be accessed by making request through the office of your US Senator.

Not a word of any of this is on the internet. This is only 1/4 of my investigative file that is around 1200 pages. Simon & Schuster provided information along with other investigators. Opinions by former FBI personnel can only be cited and internet publication is not allowed.

My paper on particle beam acceleration and TWA Flight 800 is also included.

Where in that list of references did you find your fanciful "Clinton on the 1MC" story?

I call Poe on the Particle Beam tidbit. Maybe even the rest. Unless you're a Judy Wood collaborator. Are you?

 

[JayUtah]

Not a word of any of this is on the internet. This is only 1/4 of my...

Given that your story about the Navy vessel is obviously fabricated, why should we believe any of these claims?

Agaiin, you seem to be claiming that you above all or many others have amassed a formidable body of research for which you provide only the most nebulous and insubstantial of references -- none of which can be verified because you refuse to provide actionable citations. And again you seem to believe, without cause or reason, that your critics are limited to internet sources.

The question is not what is or is not "on the internet." The question is how much of your claims you can and will substantiate to the extent they can be fact-checked.

So far the answer is "none," which leads us to assign you a very low credibility score. Your obvious willingness to simply make stuff up suggests you aren't a researcher so much as a storyteller.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I think word would have got out if a ship had Mutinied.

 

[Sherman Bay]

Not a word of any of this is on the internet.

Except, of course, what you have just revealed. Are you violating someone's confidence? Why don't you go to the news media? Why don't you write up a report and submit it to your senator? Why don't you write a letter to the editor of your local paper? Why don't you write a book -- conspiracy theories are big sellers? Why are you telling this if your sources have gone to so much trouble to avoid publicity? Why would you avoid publicity? How come you are so special?

 

[Andy_Ross]

So, tell us which ship Mutinied and had to be brought back under control by the President himself?

Did the whole crew mutiny? did some of the crew mutiny?

Why didn't the Captain just order the loyal part of the crew to detain the mutineers?

I have to say I was in the Royal Navy not the US Navy but the idea that a crew would mutiny and attack civilian law enforcement personnel who were aboard at the invitation of the captain to carry out an investigation is ludicrous. If a small part of a crew refused orders or attacked anyone then the Regulators would detain them and they would face charges.
If a mutiny was so serious that external powers had to be involved to bring it under control it would be major news. and so would the subsequent Courts Martial.