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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Indeed the ROTC practice range where I honed my marksmanship was fully enclosed and the size of a small bowling alley. It was always in use and never smelled like "gunpowder." It mostly smelled like 100-year-old basement.

Nitrocellulose doesn't smell like anything. The smell of "gunpowder" is whatever stabilizing, cleaning, and other additives the manufacturer has placed in it. The actual smell varies from manufacturer to manufacturer.

My old Navy revolver replica, which I built from a kit, used a variety of black powder. That had a smell, owing largely to the sulfur.
Ah yes, the unforgettable, hellish, throat clenching smell of black powder.

Of course you're right about nitro powders, their combustion leaves little residue of the nitroglycerine/nitrocellulose/nitrates, just the binders.
 
We could smell if a .22 cartridge had been fired that day, if it were fresh or not, by sniffing IT not the ROOM.
 
Sweden is a civilised country with severe restrictions regarding guns and ammunition. To perform a test like this would be very expensive, time consuming and controversial, even if permission was granted. I suggest you do it on a coffee break in the US, shouldn't cost you more than the ammo and a round of beer ;)
 
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Sweden is a civilised country with severe restrictions regarding guns and ammunition. To perform a test like this would be very expensive, time consuming and controversial, even if permission was granted. I suggest you do it on a coffee break in the US, shouldn't cost you more than the ammo and a round of beer ;)

Shifting the burden of proof. You are the one who claimed your hypothesis would be easily tested. If you now claim otherwise, you're just changing your story. In any case, it's your claim and therefore your burden of proof no matter how easy or difficult you believe it to be.

Also, your smug nationalistic barbs are inappropriate.
 
Sweden is a civilised country with severe restrictions regarding guns and ammunition. To perform a test like this would be very expensive, time consuming and controversial, even if permission was granted. I suggest you do it on a coffee break in the US, shouldn't cost you more than the ammo and a round of beer ;)

Sorry, you already lost. Thanks for playing.
 
Sweden is a civilised country with severe restrictions regarding guns and ammunition. To perform a test like this would be very expensive, time consuming and controversial, even if permission was granted. I suggest you do it on a coffee break in the US, shouldn't cost you more than the ammo and a round of beer ;)

I could do this in my garage right now, but if the results do not meet your expectations would you reject the test out of hand or accept my test as valid? I ask because doing the test violates municipal law and I'd like to know if I'm wasting my time before risking arrest.
 
The 6.5mm caliber rifle is said to be very popular in the Nordic countries, taking bear and moose.
Should be readily available to an earnest researcher.
 
Shifting the burden of proof.
No, I suggest that IF some of you find the take interesting, it would be easy to perform a studie in the US due to that country's very 'liberal' gun laws.



You are the one who claimed your hypothesis would be easily tested.
Yes, inside the US, and certainly in Texas. I believe the Dallas police still has an ongoing investigation? Maybe they could do it? For a small monetary contribution?

If you now claim otherwise, you're just changing your story.
Where did I change my story? Be precise.

In any case, it's your claim and therefore your burden of proof no matter how easy or difficult you believe it to be.
My claim is that this haven't been looked in to. Are you disputing that?

Also, your smug nationalistic barbs are inappropriate.
Nationalistic? Are you for real?
 
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The 6.5mm caliber rifle is said to be very popular in the Nordic countries, taking bear and moose.
Should be readily available to an earnest researcher.
Maybe so, but I do not know any hunters. Most of them live on the country side. Besides, the only way to do this kind of study in Sweden is as part of a formal research effort, i.e. university/military/court/police/corporation ... with all the permits and credentials in place.

As I said, it would be easy to do in the US. Bring a group of friends together and just do it.
 
Shifting the burden of proof. You are the one who claimed your hypothesis would be easily tested. If you now claim otherwise, you're just changing your story. In any case, it's your claim and therefore your burden of proof no matter how easy or difficult you believe it to be.

No, I suggest that IF some of you find the take interesting, it would be easy to perform a studie in the US due to that country's very 'liberal' gun laws.

Funny as you say "no", then go on to describe a shifting of the burden of proof.
 
I could do this in my garage right now, but if the results do not meet your expectations would you reject the test out of hand or accept my test as valid?
It depends on how you do it. Double blind. The more participants the better. Mimic the conditions on the alleged crime scene as close as possible.


I ask because doing the test violates municipal law and I'd like to know if I'm wasting my time before risking arrest.
I wouldn't recommend breaking the law, but if you're curious to find out for your own benefit, feel free to do so.
 
Funny as you say "no", then go on to describe a shifting of the burden of proof.
No. If there is a possibility that there could be detectable smell of gunpowder on the 6th floor of the TSBD in and around the alleged snipers nest minutes after the shooting, this should be properly investigated.

I'm almost certain that this possibility is at hand based om experience in the military. If someone states that this is impossible, i expect scientific references.

Should I investigate it? No. Proper US authorities should do so, but while waiting for that to happen, I'd welcome someone with the means and curiosity to do a semi formal study for the benefit of this forum if nothing else. Who knows, this in turn could inspire proper authorities to look in to it.
 
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No. If there is a possibility that there could be detectable smell of gunpowder on the 6th floor of the TSBD in and around the alleged snipers nest minutes after the shooting, this should be properly investigated.

No. If you are suggesting there should have been or that this is some way relevant, you should be supporting this assertion. Otherwise it is an irrelevant case of "no data available".


I'm almost certain that this possibility is at hand based om experience in the military. If someone states that this is impossible, i expect scientific references.
And there is your reversal of the burden of proof.

You are "almost certain" so you have to convince us. It is not up to anybody to prove you wrong, and you are not assumed to be right in the absence of evidence.

Should I investigate it? No.
Then the better question is: Should anybody care about speculation you wont support?

The burden of proof is on you, to show us this is a possibility, that it should have been investigated, that the investigation would have an impact on the sum of our knowledge.

So far you have done none of these these things. You have already decided what you think is important and expect everybody else to prove your right. No dice.
 
No. If you are suggesting there should have been or that this is some way relevant, you should be supporting this assertion. Otherwise it is an irrelevant case of "no data available".



And there is your reversal of the burden of proof.

You are "almost certain" so you have to convince us. It is not up to anybody to prove you wrong, and you are not assumed to be right in the absence of evidence.


Then the better question is: Should anybody care about speculation you wont support?

The burden of proof is on you, to show us this is a possibility, that it should have been investigated, that the investigation would have an impact on the sum of our knowledge.

So far you have done none of these these things. You have already decided what you think is important and expect everybody else to prove your right. No dice.

^^This.
 
Even if it's granted that it can be proven that nobody smelled gunpowder in the TSBD, I have to ask- so what? At most, it's just another loose end, a data point isolated from any other, not part of any set that would make a whole, consilient theory. But then, that's the CTist method, isn't it?

[CTist]:
C'mon, sheeple, wake up and see the whole picture! Look, I've got the lack of a gunpowder smell in the TSBD! I've got some guy with Mob/CIA/Cuban connections in a nearby building! I've got 40-plus medical witnesses! I've got a picture that looks funny to me! I've got a few witnesses who died what I think are mysterious deaths within an unspecified time of the assassination! All ya gotta do is connect the dots!

And what've you got? Ballistics evidence that ties the bullet to the rifle found in the TSBD, and evidence that ties the rifle to Oswald! Eyewitnesses that place him in the window the shots can be shown to have come from, and others that testify to his killing Tippit! Autopsy reports! Yeah, well...pfffffft!
[/CTist]
 
No. If you are suggesting there should have been or that this is some way relevant, you should be supporting this assertion. Otherwise it is an irrelevant case of "no data available".
1. As there is, to my knowledge, no odorless exploded gunpowder I'd welcome referenced facts that contradicts that knowledge, paired with referenced facts that the alleged bullets belong to this category.

2. If the alleged bullets doesn't indeed belong to this hypothetical category, one has to conclude that the same bullets releases odor when exploded.

3. The only way to conclude "with a moral certainty" that the odor wasn't strong enough to detect by a normal human olfactory system, is to perform a relevant experiment.

4. The importance of investigating this stems from the fact that no testimony of smell of gunpowder from the alleged crime scene minutes after the alleged shooting has been reported.

5. If this proposed investigation concludes with high significance that there should have been a highly significant odor from or around the alleged snipers nest one have to ask why this finding wasn't reported.

And there is your reversal of the burden of proof.
No, you are wrong.

1. There's common knowledge that exploding gunpowder generates some kind of odor, more or less significant in strength/amount. If you dispute that, you're the one who has to provide evidence to the contrary.

2. Is the odor significant enough to detect in this particular case? I say it probably is. You say it's probably not.

3. The only way to be certain is to conduct a proper investigation.

4. I propose such an investigation, but can not do it my self.

5 You accuse me for reversal of burden of proof. Fail.

You are "almost certain" so you have to convince us. It is not up to anybody to prove you wrong, and you are not assumed to be right in the absence of evidence.
1. I can't convince anybody that there should be a smell without a proper investigation.

2. I'm trying to convince you that a proper investigation should be performed.

3. You accuse me of reversal of the burden of proof.

Then the better question is: Should anybody care about speculation you wont support?
Yes. See above

The burden of proof is on you, to show us this is a possibility, that it should have been investigated, that the investigation would have an impact on the sum of our knowledge.
See above.

So far you have done none of these these things. You have already decided what you think is important and expect everybody else to prove your right. No dice.
No, the only argument against is ... "it doesn't smell that much ...". Says who?
 
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LOL.

You lose again.
1. There's common knowledge that exploding gunpowder generates some kind of odor, more or less significant in strength/amount. If you dispute that, you're the one who has to provide evidence to the contrary.
There's also common knowledge that, lets say, burning petroleum generates some kind of odor, more or less significant in strength/amount. If you dispute that, you're the one who has to provide evidence to the contrary.

Right?
 
Even if it's granted that it can be proven that nobody smelled gunpowder in the TSBD, I have to ask- so what? At most, it's just another loose end, a data point isolated from any other, not part of any set that would make a whole, consilient theory. But then, that's the CTist method, isn't it?

[CTist]:
C'mon, sheeple, wake up and see the whole picture! Look, I've got the lack of a gunpowder smell in the TSBD! I've got some guy with Mob/CIA/Cuban connections in a nearby building! I've got 40-plus medical witnesses! I've got a picture that looks funny to me! I've got a few witnesses who died what I think are mysterious deaths within an unspecified time of the assassination! All ya gotta do is connect the dots!

And what've you got? Ballistics evidence that ties the bullet to the rifle found in the TSBD, and evidence that ties the rifle to Oswald! Eyewitnesses that place him in the window the shots can be shown to have come from, and others that testify to his killing Tippit! Autopsy reports! Yeah, well...pfffffft!
[/CTist]
Read this, and try again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10103672&postcount=77


pfffffffffffft!
 
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