The Historical Jesus II

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pakehaI think it depends on what you mean by "early." There does seem to be a serious "consolidation of power" (whatever that meant in a disreputable ragtag movement hiding on the edge of legality) in the Second Century, but before then? It seems like a "Wild, Wild East." Paul can't do anything about other preachers poaching in his churches, but they can't shut him down, either. Free markets at their finest; Microsoftian Order still lies in their future. [ . . . ]

Yes, the literature from the second century seems to be based on persuading folk to conformity rather than urging them to explore their moral authority.
First century?
Your "Wild, Wild East" seems to sum it up, though that glimpse into Alexandrian practises shown in the Acts 18:25-27 incident* makes me realise just how limited our vision is of ust what was believed and practised back in the day. We know Alexandria boasted of a Christian 'academy' from very early times, yet in 110 Pliny the Younger couldn't get a coherent idea of what Christians believed.


As for the part I snipped, at the end of the day my spidey sense tells me the idea of Jesus the ground-breaking philosopher is guff.
I'll prolly spend many hours researching the subject to little or no effect, but there you are. It's the same spidey sense that told me to dig into Tacitus' sources for that Annals reference to Nero's solution for party lighting. I found out why the sources are crook, but apparently by following a different train of thought to that of dr Carrier, if I've understood that section of OHJ correctly.

It's coffee time.





*Is it wrong of me to wonder about the techniques A & P used to convince Apollos of the error of his ways?
 
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As for the part I snipped, at the end of the day my spidey sense tells me the idea of Jesus the ground-breaking philosopher is guff.

It appears the figure of Jesus is an empty vessel for people to fill with whatever suits their fancy - witness christians caught red handed re-writing the pontifications of Eugnostos the Blessed into 'authentic teachings' of Jesus.
 
It appears the figure of Jesus is an empty vessel for people to fill with whatever suits their fancy - witness christians caught red handed re-writing the pontifications of Eugnostos the Blessed into 'authentic teachings' of Jesus.

Price commented on this with regard to reconstructions of Jesus:


"The "historical Jesus" reconstructed by New Testament scholars is always a reflection of the individual scholars who reconstruct him. Albert Schweitzer was perhaps the single exception, and he made it painfully clear that previous questers for the historical Jesus had merely drawn self-portraits. All unconsciously used the historical Jesus as a ventriloquist dummy. Jesus must have taught the truth, and their own beliefs must have been true, so Jesus must have taught those beliefs." (Price, Robert (1997) Christ a Fiction)

"What one Jesus reconstruction leaves aside, the next one takes up and makes its cornerstone. Jesus simply wears too many hats in the Gospels – exorcist, healer, king, prophet, sage, rabbi, demigod, and so on. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is a composite figure (...) The historical Jesus (if there was one) might well have been a messianic king, or a progressive Pharisee, or a Galilean shaman, or a magus, or a Hellenistic sage. But he cannot very well have been all of them at the same time." (Price, Robert (2000) Deconstructing Jesus, pp. 15-16)

"My point here is simply that, even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn't one any more. All attempts to recover him turn out to be just modern remythologizings of Jesus. Every "historical Jesus" is a Christ of faith, of somebody's faith. So the "historical Jesus" of modern scholarship is no less a fiction." (Price, Robert (1997) Christ a Fiction)
 
dejudge said:
It has been shown before that Tacitus' Annals does not mention Jesus of Nazareth.

It has been explained before that your statement is a fallacy. Scholars today REJECT Annals' 15.44 and consider it a forgery.

It has been explained before that the existing copy Tacitus' Annals 15.44 has been manipulated. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 never mentioned Christians .

Yeah, you mean the Chrestians that suffered the extreme penalty under Pilate? That is why your arguments against it are so absurd, because they make no sense whatsoever in context.

Your statement has no real value and exposes your lack of knowledge.

1. In the NT itself there were no followers of Jesus of Nazareth called Christians/Chrestians up to the crucifixion under Pilate.

2. In the NT itself, Jesus of Nazareth did NOT publicly preach that he was the Christ and commanded his disciples NOT to tell anyone he was the Christ.

3. In the NT itself, Jesus was REJECTED as the Christ by Jews.

4. In Acts, it is claimed people were FIRST called Christians/Chrestians in ANTIOCH.

The very NT itself exposes that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 is a very late forgery.

No serious scholar does not consider Tacitus authentic. This Chrestians nonsense is just silly and although I understand that you consider it gospel, I am an atheist on that point.

Your statement is a well established fallacy. You cannot be taken seriously. Please stop your nonsense and get familiar with the writings of antiquity.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 is exposed as a BLATANT forgery by the very authors of the NT.

There were no people called Christians up to the supposed crucifixion of the Son of God under Pilate.

Acts 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass , that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
 
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Your statement has no real value and exposes your lack of knowledge.

1. In the NT itself there were no followers of Jesus of Nazareth called Christians/Chrestians up to the crucifixion under Pilate.

2. In the NT itself, Jesus of Nazareth did NOT publicly preach that he was the Christ and commanded his disciples NOT to tell anyone he was the Christ.

3. In the NT itself, Jesus was REJECTED as the Christ by Jews.

4. In Acts, it is claimed people were FIRST called Christians/Chrestians in ANTIOCH.

The very NT itself exposes that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 is a very late forgery.


our statement is a well established fallacy. You cannot be taken seriously. Please stop your nonsense and get familiar with the writings of antiquity.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 is exposed as a BLATANT forgery by the very authors of the NT.

There were no people called Christians up to the supposed crucifixion of the Son of God under Pilate.

Acts 11:26 KJV

Not going to touch the "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus" line? No surprise.

Anyhoo, lets take a look at the rest of your post, shall we? The followers of Jesus were "first" called Christians in Antioch, which OF COURSE follows that they were later called Christians in other places, including Rome, where Tacitus was writing about followers of Jesus the guy who suffered the ultimate punishment.

QED. Thanks for posting
 
dejudge said:
Your statement has no real value and exposes your lack of knowledge.

1. In the NT itself there were no followers of Jesus of Nazareth called Christians/Chrestians up to the crucifixion under Pilate.

2. In the NT itself, Jesus of Nazareth did NOT publicly preach that he was the Christ and commanded his disciples NOT to tell anyone he was the Christ.

3. In the NT itself, Jesus was REJECTED as the Christ by Jews.

4. In Acts, it is claimed people were FIRST called Christians/Chrestians in ANTIOCH.

The very NT itself exposes that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 is a very late forgery.


Not going to touch the "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus" line? No surprise.

Again, please get familiar with writings of antiquity. You show a limited knowledge of the Jesus story in the very NT and the meaning of the title "Christus".

Only actual Jewish Kings and High Priests were called CHRISTUS [Anointed] and were physically Anointed when the title is bestowed on them.

There was NO Jewish King or High Priest named Jesus of Nazareth in Jewish History.

Even Apologetic writers admitted that the Jews have stated that the expected Christ had not yet arrived.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Chrstus is not only a forgery --it is total fiction.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho]
And when I had finished these words, I continued: "Now I am aware that your teachers, sirs, admit the whole of the words of this passage to refer to Christ; and I am likewise aware that they maintain He has not yet come; or if they say that He has come, they assert that it is not known who He is; but when He shall become manifest and glorious, then it shall be known who He is...

There was no cult of Christians who were followers of "Christus" in the time of Pilate . The Jewish "Christus" has NOT yet arrived up to today.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is confirmed to be forgery and fiction.

Tacitus in Histories 5 claimed the Jews expected their MESSIANIC ruler c 66-70 CE.
 
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Again, please get familiar with writings of antiquity. You show a limited knowledge of the Jesus story in the very NT and the meaning of the title "Christus".

Only actual Jewish Kings and High Priests were called CHRISTUS [Anointed] and were physically Anointed when the title is bestowed on them.

There was NO Jewish King or High Priest named Jesus of Nazareth in Jewish History.

Even Apologetic writers admitted that the Jews have stated that the expected Christ had not yet arrived.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Chrstus is not only a forgery --it is total fiction.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho]

There was no cult of Christians who were followers of "Christus" in the time of Pilate . The Jewish "Christus" has NOT yet arrived up to today.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is confirmed to be forgery and fiction.

Tacitus in Histories 5 claimed the Jews expected their MESSIANIC ruler c 66-70 CE.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote. Tacitus 15:44 does not even mention Jews.

Masterful job of moving the goal posts though.

Further, claiming that Jews don't believe in Jesus as proof of the non-existance of Jesus is laughable.
 
dejudge said:
Again, please get familiar with writings of antiquity. You show a limited knowledge of the Jesus story in the very NT and the meaning of the title "Christus".

Only actual Jewish Kings and High Priests were called CHRISTUS [Anointed] and were physically Anointed when the title is bestowed on them.

There was NO Jewish King or High Priest named Jesus of Nazareth in Jewish History.

Even Apologetic writers admitted that the Jews have stated that the expected Christ had not yet arrived.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Chrstus is not only a forgery --it is total fiction.

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho]

There was no cult of Christians who were followers of "Christus" in the time of Pilate . The Jewish "Christus" has NOT yet arrived up to today.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is confirmed to be forgery and fiction.

Tacitus in Histories 5 claimed the Jews expected their MESSIANIC ruler c 66-70 CE.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote. Tacitus 15:44 does not even mention Jews.

Masterful job of moving the goal posts though.

Further, claiming that Jews don't believe in Jesus as proof of the non-existance of Jesus is laughable.

You have nothing to offer.

You are not familiar with the massive amount of evidence which show Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is forgery and fiction.

This is a partial list.

1. JOSEPHUS Wars of the Jews 6.5.4.

2 TACITUS Histories 5.

3. SUETONIUS Life of Vespasian.


The Jewish prophesied Christus had not yet come up to the time of NERO.


1. JOSEPHUS' Wars of the Jews
But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination.


2. TACITUS Histories 5
..... there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.


3. SUETONIUS Life of Vespasian
5 There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome, as afterwards appeared from the event, the people of Judaea took to themselves..
 
proudfootz

witness christians caught red handed re-writing the pontifications of Eugnostos the Blessed into 'authentic teachings' of Jesus.
In fairness, the Sophia of Jesus does offer a big hint, right up front, that its contents may not be among the authentic sayings of Jesus,

After he rose from the dead, ...the Savior appeared - not in his previous form, but in the invisible spirit. And his likeness resembles a great angel of light. But his resemblance I must not describe. No mortal flesh could endure it, but only pure, perfect flesh, like that which he taught us about on the mountain called "Of the Olives" in Galilee.

And he said:...
IRL, dead men tell no tales. Assuming, then, we are only concerned with the historical Jesus, and so only stuff that Jesus supposedly said before he paid his debt to society,


pakeha

As for the part I snipped, at the end of the day my spidey sense tells me the idea of Jesus the ground-breaking philosopher is guff.
Looking at what Jesus supposedly said in life is among the best explanations of why Paul quotes so very little of it.

Nero's solution for party lighting.
Call me sceptical; but people just aren't cut out to be practical lighting fixtures. Too wet to burn neatly, too wiggly to read by, and the smell would upset the chef. I'm thinking BS, regardless of who told the story.
 
You have nothing to offer.

You are not familiar with the massive amount of evidence which show Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is forgery and fiction.

The Jewish prophesied Christus had not yet come up to the time of NERO.

To summarize, Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, so Tactius was a forgery.

Compelling.

:rolleyes:
 
dejudge said:
You have nothing to offer.

You are not familiar with the massive amount of evidence which show Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is forgery and fiction.

This is a partial list.

1. JOSEPHUS Wars of the Jews 6.5.4.

2 TACITUS Histories 5.

3. SUETONIUS Life of Vespasian.


To summarize, Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, so Tactius was a forgery.

Compelling.

:rolleyes:

You have nothing to offer.

You don't even realize that Tacitus, Josephus and Suetonius attest to the fact that Jews used their Scriptures for the expectation of their CHRISTUS under NERO c 66-70 CE--NOT under Tiberius.

Now, Sulpitius Severus in Sacred History 2 will also show that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is a forgery.

Up to the 5th century NO apologetic writer claimed Tacitus wrote about Christus.

The forgery about Christus was unknown to Sulpitius Severus.

Sacred History 2.29
And in fact, Nero could not by any means he tried escape from the charge that the fire had been caused by his orders. He therefore turned the accusation against the Christians, and the most cruel tortures were accordingly inflicted upon the innocent.


Nay, even new kinds of death were invented, so that, being covered in the skins of wild beasts, they perished by being devoured by dogs, while many were crucified or slain by fire, and not a few were set apart for this purpose, that, when the day came to a close, they should be consumed to serve for light during the night.


Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus was manipulated no earlier than the 5th century. In the NT itself there was no new religion or Jesus cult on the day Jesus the Son of God was crucified.


Tacitus’ Annals 15.44
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace.

Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
 
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You have nothing to offer.....4

It is odd, you keep opening your posts with stuff like this. It makes it somewhat difficult to even begin to take you seriously.

Also odd is you take two largely consistent passages to support your plea ... Er.... Argument?... Well your rhetoric anyway that the passage was unknown to one author which does not prove.... Well, anything at all really.

I think anyone reading the two would conclude that he second author did not bother to cite the first because of the rampant accusations of evil. ETA: not to mention the fact that someone writing a history of Christians for Christians would certainly not include an extremely negative description of what Christians were, although Tacitus CERTAINLY would have.

Cool point!
 
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Not going to touch the "Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus" line? No surprise.

Anyhoo, lets take a look at the rest of your post, shall we? The followers of Jesus were "first" called Christians in Antioch, which OF COURSE follows that they were later called Christians in other places, including Rome, where Tacitus was writing about followers of Jesus the guy who suffered the ultimate punishment.

Several things here.

One variant of the work goes as follows: "Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated for their crimes. This was the sect known as Chrestians. Their founder, one Chrestus, had been put to death by the procurator, Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius."

As I have stated before the discrepancies in Tacitus are that both Pliny the Elder and Josephus were in Rome c64 CE and neither mentions Christians. As Carrier notes Tacitus was in communication with Pliny the Younger and odds are his claim of Nero persecuting Christians came from the Christians Pliny was dealing with. Carrier even shows that Tacitus had no Nero era source to work with to verify such a claim. Also our oldest copy has the group was originally Chrestians and there are variants where they are the followers of Chrestus (not Christus) so who knows what Tacitus originally wrote.
Suetonius mentions Nero going after Christians but nothing about this being an effort to distract claims he set the fire himself. In fact there are nearly 16 paragraphs between these two events suggesting Nero went after Christians before the fire. Suetonius gives us even less to work with and given what happened with Tacitus he may have been writing about Chrestians who if a supposed 2nd century letter is to be believed were followers of Serapis (Osiris) who were described as "seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury".

Before Antioch "this group did not name themselves after Christ or with Jesus’ own name, but Natzraya." and this term that was applied to all followers of Jesus. Later they were called Jessaeans for a time. And by our oldest copy of Acts they were called Chrestians not Christians. In fact, "Christian" as a term doesn't appear in Acts until c450. More over early Christian authorities like Tertullian went to great pains in explaining that Christian and Chrestian were two different words with entirely different meanings and were not variants of each other
 
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Pakeha,

Thank you for the clarificatio; I'm going to highlight this line only to use it as a springboard, but I'll work on a general address and the following quote is not the only comment to which I am responding.
I'd understood you to claim that Christianity offered a powerful and innovative incentive to potential converts, that of personal moral authority, via the personal relation to the Saviour.
The personal relation capacity was a development we can observe being ironed out over time in the subsequent Christian groups.

Not all groups believed Jesus was someone they could keep in touch with, nor was it such that all groups believed that Jesus was a Divinity of some fashion.

The latter was the primary component of the famous battles of Christology, while the former has examples in passing references; such as the Ebionite clusters - who appeared not to believe Jesus to be divine at all, nor appeared to refer to Jesus as a proxy to their god, while another are some of the forms of so-called Gnostics of whom, some factions did not hold Jesus as divine (the matter of Gnostics not all adhering to the same concept of the nature of Jesus is also a good example of why the term is not a very good term for classification purposes).

Further examples of such deviations can be understood by the existence of the terms Psilanthropism and Adoptionism; both for which terminological need only exists by result of applicable groups requiring definition.


It is understood, then, that the moral authority issue that exists on nearly every page of these texts, exists independent of the formation of the various beliefs of divinity.
Indeed, in the texts themselves, these charges of moral authority are driven by the accusative (that is; like saying "you!") casing and never once demand of a person to first and foremost ask Jesus, their god, or anyone anything before making a judgement.

As Eight Bits pointed out (and yes, those are very similar forms of discussion that I have made in the past on the subject), all comments about the right to have authority of moral judgement (aka, "Kingdom of God"/Kingdom of the Divine/Authority of the Divine) introduce the right by blood or relation (both referring to ancestry and the lineage of the Hebrews - also interpreted as mankind depending on the group); by extrapolation or derivative, it is inherent to humankind, or accessible through divination of sorts.

For example of this use (and why some groups did not agree with the later Orthodox views); take a few examples [here, I will just quote to the English translation that comes the closest to the Greek]:
[NIV]
Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Note here that kingdom of God is the authority of the divine: βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ, which rather literally translates to:
dominion (as in, the right to rule) of (due to genitive casing) the god/divine (note: if "divine" is the selection, it should be noted as singular in the use and not plural here).

The point in this is that the authority, the right, would be taken away (that is how it appears in the Greek; 'lifted from yourself') and bestowed upon a different group of peoples.

This line is not written to assert that one's access to a physical structure or metaphysical structure of heaven will be removed and given to some other group.
This isn't like "If you can't behave, then the car you will get will be taken from your and given to your brother".

No, this isn't written in the indefinite or future tenses; it is present tense ownership, and what will be taken is something you have; not somewhere you get to go.

It is essentially along the same traditions as the judgement of Moses and the running discussions of the difference between Wisdom and Knowledge in the Torah (the two separate applications).

Without getting too far into a tangent, the concept is that Knowledge without Wisdom is death, and that while Knowledge may be retained seemingly endlessly once obtained, Wisdom is portrayed in the stories as a slippery serpent which requires careful handling and a careful watch or it will loose itself from your hands and bite you with its potential poison.

And for that reason, in those tales, it is that a leader is referred to for Wisdom and not the everyday person.

In this line here - just in this line alone - the radical concept is that the axiom is that the regular person apparently already has that right to moral judgement; a right to hold Wisdom themselves.
That is a rather different perspective in philosophy than the Torah's view of the matter.

Here, it is paramount that the individuals take care and control themselves without a leader and entirely by their own merits, each, and if not then to suffer the right to Wisdom as being removed from their hands (which would leave them with 'Foolish Knowledge') and given to those who will bear fruit of it (will be wise with the right).


Now, by the time the Orthodox wars are over, the way something like this is understood in the West is that your access to Heaven will be denied; a much more mundane rendering philosophically.


Probably the most considerable evidence of this view having existed for a time is found in Mark.
Aside from the "secret" knowledge of the Apostles regarding the authority of moral judgement (for which all others [including the reader, apparently] require parables to grasp, according to 'Mark'), we are given the definition of how this authority works in the following manner:
[NSRV]
26 He also said, “The kingdom of God is as if someone would scatter seed on the ground, 27 and would sleep and rise night and day, and the seed would sprout and grow, he does not know how. 28 The earth produces of itself, first the stalk, then the head, then the full grain in the head. 29 But when the grain is ripe, at once he goes in with his sickle, because the harvest has come.”

It is a growth that is planted, and regardless if it is ignored or not, eventually it comes to a day of employing it.
We are left off at that point; the success of that "harvest" is left to the imagination and implied dependent on how well someone kept their field.

In this, it is then charged that all have the authority of moral judgement in them and that it grows and one day comes to need use; to bear its fruit.

If we look at Jesus and the Kingdom of God in a more Gatekeeper and Camelot view, then a parable such as this really stretches the metaphor to more complex ideas that hardly make sense even in the most abstract nature, aside from Surrealist Philosophy (which is even debatable) - we would then have to say that Camelot is built by a sort of crowd-sourcing to the serfs and that once it is ready, then the serfs go to use Camelot.

Which would be to say that Heaven is built by everyone and that once it is ready, then everyone goes to Heaven.
But then we have to throw in the Orthodox view of "through Jesus alone" literal translation of John 14:6 (which, really...we shouldn't mix-match the theologies in these texts anyway, John doesn't prove an idea of Mark, Mark doesn't prove an idea of Luke, etc... this logic was a later creation [and a different subject]), and in so doing after everyone helps construct Heaven, then they have to gain the access through Jesus to enter Heaven...or...

Everyone has to "build" Heaven metaphorically (build the community of Heaven) through Jesus and only through Jesus and once that community has been "built", then God will begin the Apocalypse (harvest) and cut out the souls and take them to the dinner table of Heaven for eternity.

Either way, it gets far more strange and odd as we move further into the age of Orthodox and from the earlier separated groupings.


Mark 12 also shows this view of the access to this authority not having anything to do with tunneling through Jesus like a black hole to traverse metatimespace.
[NRSV]
32 Then the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that ‘he is one, and besides him there is no other’; 33 and ‘to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,’ and ‘to love one’s neighbor as oneself,’—this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” After that no one dared to ask him any question.

Again, here, Kingdom of God is the same wording referring to the right of the divine; which, again, is the right of moral judgement.
Notice here, this individual is being told that they are close to the divine way of judging and praised for it.
Notice also that this individual accomplished this without tunneling through Jesus, and notice that the Jesus figure does not then follow up with "but you have one more step to take; pray to me alone after I die so that I can forgive your sins and you may go to heaven...otherwise you're screwed".

Nothing like that follows here.

The bottom line of the theological philosophy in Mark is that it is difficult to discern moral wrongs from moral rights; that there is a divine logic of discerning; that the divine logic must be figured out; that it is within the individual regardless; that one will eventually make a moral judgement; that one practices to discern how to discern divine moral right from divine moral wrong.


This is a bit different than Matthew's philosophies, where in Matthew the outline is basically (summarizing) "You're Hebrew, you have the right to morally judge bestowed upon you through contract with God as a people! Get on it!"

Meaning: the arguments in Matthew are ancestry and authority by direct ancestry (something other groups just kind of either gloss over, or translate and focus on the "Adam" component as much as possible, or say that this is what gave the Israelites their specialty, but they lost it when...etc...etc... and therefore Jesus...etc...etc...now the world is all of God's children..etc...etc... [never-minding that "Israelite" is not the same as "Hebrew", and the context is far more complicated than this common Evangelical view...but whatever, let's not get our theology bogged down with anthropology).


Luke straddles the two concepts and begins to blur the idea of right to moral judgement with the idea of a geographical location.
Luke, in a way, is Platonic in its approach (which seems to have entirely confused the writers/compilers of John).

In Luke, the location of the right of moral judgement is also an access subject to one's ideological and moral position.
It is as if Luke writes of this like an aether layered atop the world of the actual so that as one moves by one's actions, one is equally ideally moving by distance within the aetheral plane.



In Luke, we see the Mustard seed trimmed down and the physical structure of it focused upon more directly and clearly by adding at the end that a bird comes to land on the branches of the Mustard Tree.
In Luke, then, the reader is the Bird, and not the farmer.
The Farmer is now Jesus (it would appear; though it is not entirely clear) and the seed is the spreading of the knowledge of the right way to God, and the Tree is the fruition of God's followers adhering to the prescription and therefore growing the Kingdom's might (ignore the quandary of there needing to be some growth in power like this for the moment...keeping in mind that in Athenian culture, gods didn't do everything alone, but through humankind) and thereby the bird, the individual, can fly right and true to the wealth of the Mustard seed.

It's a pretty image and very Grecian; not at all like Mark's version.

Equally at the same time, Luke writes things like Luke 11:20, which if we only take the physical location idea from Luke's version of the 'Kingdom of God', as it in this version of the Mustard Seed, and do not couple it with some aetheral comprehension of ideal/actual in the Platonic sense, then this comment tends to be rather senseless and queer:
[NSRV]
20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out the demons, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

I hate this "demons" translation because that's the English Western cultural ideological transliteration of the Greek and not an actual translation at all.

It would rather be:
But if it is by the finger of God that I send out the spirits, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

Which...this is actually far more interesting when you add the previous verse (often terribly rendered into English)
Again, I will revert to Greek over English transliteration here.

Now if I send out the spirits by Beelzebul into these sons of yours, send out by himself, your judgement.

The gist of these two lines is essentially:
"Look if I instill evil into your children, then you can judge them as evil by their actions. On the other hand, if I am instilling good into them by the divine, then the 'right way of being' has come to you."

Why did I state "right way of being"?
Because Luke's way of thinking of "right to moral authority" is always one with a preconceived ideal version of the "correct" choice; thinking that one with the "right to moral authority" inherently would make the "correct" choice.

So in this sense, Luke's application of the "Kingdom of God" in this section is basically to outline that the right way to be is already with them so be happy and stop the whining; they are clearly not bad because of me otherwise you would see it in them.

This is why I said Luke is Platonic.
Because on one hand we have this rather non-structure application of the Kingdom of God, while on the other hand we see that as one nears to right thinking, one is ascribed to moving close to the Kingdom of God in a rather physical application.

It only really makes sense from the Platonic ontological views.

Think of Luke like the Matrix in a way...as far as the dichotomy of Ideal and Actual, and how moving close in IDEA to something is one with moving "physically" close to it.


Now, John...John is crazy, but fascinatingly, doesn't really touch on this phrase and only uses it (if I recall correctly) twice - both referring to a physical place, or at the least a state of salvation with a very clear idea of a location for an eventual destination in mind.
Aside from that John doesn't really talk about much of the same concepts as the others in regards to these ideas of moral judgement of the individual's imperative.

In John, we have the closest thing to what came to be the Orthodox means of understanding things, as well as the current popular means of Christian salvation outline.
John is really easy, and takes no real effort to outline.

Jesus = supermangod.
Get Jesus or get death.
Why? Because that's how the realm of the divine flippin works, obviously!
There's a sacrifice, that makes it possible to save you, and that spirit is your access point to Mazda...err, Heaven. Start praying because otherwise, let me tell you, this world is going to suuuuck and you do NOT want to be on the wrong side of ArmyJesus when he comes back man! REPENT NOW!!!!! OMG TOTESREPENT!!!

There's really no examination in John of the same subject material.


So yes, there were considerable changes in 3 of the 4 texts (with one going cotton-candy-epic-theater-for-Family-fun with the story [in 3D!]) in regards to the idea of wisdom and reaching for moral authority to right judgement.

That is almost the entire focus of Matthew, Mark and Luke (as well as Thomas, and and the Gospel of the Hebrews [at least, from the citations that survived]).

These concepts are pretty much absent from John and Revelation, Paulinism goes an entirely different route to applying these concepts and they become more of a social bonding imperative than an individual moral authority imperative - whereby Jesus is the superglue of their holy spirit as a collective.
 
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Maximara,

I disagree.
The "chase" to me isn't the scale's validity as a scale; that is irrelevant.
It is, to me, since the approach of the concept of the scale is errant to begin with.

If we don't know what the cultures are to which these texts belong to, then in what manner are we valid in grading their texts according to any scope of literature?

As I pointed out before anthropologists DO THIS ALL THE TIME! :mad: They take some concept as universal (such as the African Kindship system) and then see if it is universal. Such concepts explain why there are pyramid like structures in both Egypt and South America without delving in such ad hoc theories as Atlantis or some unknown contact.

Heck the idea there is some sort of universal underpinning concept regardless of culture is the foundation of Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces and The Masks of God.

Such hypothesis succeed or fail by how consistent they are NOT by what culture they come from. That Tsar Nicholas II score a 14 would be evidence that the Lord' Raglan's Hero Pattern scale has serious flaws

"Shakespeare in the Bush" Natural History Aug–Sept 1966 is an example of just how in such concepts of cultural universalism are disproven.
 
Maximira,

Sure, but that is done when we know the cultures for which we are applying the logic to and summarizing. We haven't that knowledge, so to treat Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as of one unified geographic and tradition of culture is a rather large miss.

On the other hand, the application unto the scale is entirely accurate if we are examining the Orthodox outline of the story whereby these same texts are, by this culture, unified and the meanings fleshed out rather explicitly to those we find compared on the scale.

And of course, when we do this, we find that the Orthodox variation lines up well with mythological tales; certainly.

This, however, means nothing is gained in value for discerning the demographics the Orthodox eradicated purposefully and what those groups perceived at all.
 
To summarize, Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, so Tactius was a forgery.

Compelling.

:rolleyes:

Sarcasm aside I agree that dejudge does seem to subscribe to the Joseph Wheless way of thinking...which is annoying to say the least.

You don't need an elaborate ad hoc forgery-hoax hypothesis to explain Paul, the Gospels, Acts, and what little before 120 CE there is.

Yes the Christians were the ones copying stuff but from what we can put together there was NOT some elaborate illuminati level conspiracy to create Jesus. Rather what we see can be explained by the Cargo Cults and urban legend with a little tampering to make things fit.

We know that our oldest copy of Tacitus was changed. As to why we don't know; well meaning copyist fixing what he thinks is an error or copyist trying to make Tacitus agree with supposed "history". Either is possible and in the end irrelevant as there is nothing to show Tacitus was not simply repeating some urban legend he heard. Josephus and Pliny the Elder don't mention Christians during their time in Nero's Rome so Christians were there they were so small as to not worth noting (and similarly not an effective scapegoat) if they existed in Rome at all.
 
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Maximira,

Sure, but that is done when we know the cultures for which we are applying the logic to and summarizing. We haven't that knowledge, so to treat Matthew, Mark, Luke and John as of one unified geographic and tradition of culture is a rather large miss.

On the other hand, the application unto the scale is entirely accurate if we are examining the Orthodox outline of the story whereby these same texts are, by this culture, unified and the meanings fleshed out rather explicitly to those we find compared on the scale.

And of course, when we do this, we find that the Orthodox variation lines up well with mythological tales; certainly.

This, however, means nothing is gained in value for discerning the demographics the Orthodox eradicated purposefully and what those groups perceived at all.

But step back and realize that where the idea that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were one unified geographic and tradition of culture came from: Christianity itself or rather one particular sect that got the ear of the Emperor in the 4th century. For centuries Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were portrayed as being the writings of the personal followers of Jesus that together formed "one unified geographic and tradition of culture".
 
...I think anyone reading the two would conclude that he second author did not bother to cite the first because of the rampant accusations of evil. ETA: not to mention the fact that someone writing a history of Christians for Christians would certainly not include an extremely negative description of what Christians were, although Tacitus CERTAINLY would have.

Cool point!

You are guessing.

You have not presented a single piece of corroborative evidence from antiquity to support the claim that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is authentic.

You have nothing but speculation.

These are the facts.

1. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is NOT attested by Tacitus himself in Histories 5.

2. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is NOT attested by Josephus.

3. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is NOT attested b y Suetonius.

4. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is NOT attested in the NT stories of Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God.

5. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus does not state Christus was crucified.

6. Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus does not state Christus was from Nazareth.

7. In the NT itself, there was a person called CHRISTUS--NOT Jesus of Nazareth.

8. In the NT itself, it is claimed many persons would be called CHRISTUS and deceive many.

9. In the NT itself, Jesus of Nazareth was called John the Baptist, Elias or one of the prophets--NOT Christus.

10. Virtually all apologetics claimed the Jews KILLED Jesus the Son of God--NOT Pilate.

11. A great number of people suffered the ultimate penalty under Pilate in Josephus' writings.

12. In the NT itself, Pilate found NO fault with Jesus.

There is simply an abundance of evidence which shows that Tacitus' Annals 15.44 is forgery, fiction and incompatible with the very stories of Jesus in the NT itself.

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus was forged no earlier than the 5th century or after the writing of Sulpitius Severus' "Sacred History".
 
Sarcasm aside I agree that dejudge does seem to subscribe to the Joseph Wheless way of thinking...which is annoying to say the least.

Please, your statement is a fallacy. I don't even know what Joseph Wheless is!!

I deal with the existing evidence from antiquity.

This is a partial list of the writings of antiquity I subscribe to: The Septuagint, the NT Canon, the New Testament Papyri, the Dead Sea Scroll, writings attributed to Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the younger, Philo, Cassius Dio, Ignatius, Aristides, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Athenagoras, Arnobius, Minucius Felix, Clement of Alexandria, Lactantius, Optatus, Origen, Jerome, Eusebius, Rufinus, Augustine of Hippo, Theophilus and othes.

maximara said:
You don't need an elaborate ad hoc forgery-hoax hypothesis to explain Paul, the Gospels, Acts, and what little before 120 CE there is.

Yes the Christians were the ones copying stuff but from what we can put together there was NOT some elaborate illuminati level conspiracy to create Jesus. Rather what we see can be explained by the Cargo Cults and urban legend with a little tampering to make things fit.

We don't need any elaborate strawman arguments about John Frum "nowhere". Whether or not John Frum "nowhere" existed is completely irrelevant to the inquiry in to a character call Jesus of Nazareth in the NT.

Scholars themselves admit the Gospels are NOT eyewitness accounts, that they were NOT written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, that they are riddled with historical problems, discrepancies, contradictions and events that did not happen and that the Pauline Corpus is a product of multiple authors.

The pattern is consistent. The NT is a compilation of fake 1st century writers called Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James and Jude.

In fact, the HJ argument is the by-product of the ad-hoc forgery hoax hypothesis.

Bart Ehrman in Did Jesus Exist?" argues that the real Jesus is NOT the Jesus of Nazareth in the NT and he discredits almost all events surrounding Jesus of Nazareth.

Bart Ehrman also exposes the vast amount of Forgeries, and false attribution in "Forged".



maximara said:
We know that our oldest copy of Tacitus was changed. As to why we don't know; well meaning copyist fixing what he thinks is an error or copyist trying to make Tacitus agree with supposed "history". Either is possible and in the end irrelevant as there is nothing to show Tacitus was not simply repeating some urban legend he heard.


Josephus and Pliny the Elder don't mention Christians during their time in Nero's Rome so Christians were there they were so small as to not worth noting (and similarly not an effective scapegoat) if they existed in Rome at all.

So, Tacitus' Annals 15.44 with Christus is of no real value in the HJ argument. We don't know if those Christians were followers of Simon Magus, Menander or worshippers of God alone. It is rather absurd to assume that Christians mean only followers of the Jesus story.
 
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