The Historical Jesus II

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There is also the issue that the Jesus in gMark scores much less than the Jesus in the other Gospels. It is certainly consistent with evolving myth-making, whatever the implications of that are.
In part because that Gospel starts with him being baptized. That skips the first 10 of Lord Raglan's criteria, and starts with #11.

5. He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
Adopted son of God, not literal son of God. Does this score? Who knows?
That means quasi-biological offspring of a god, like Zeus's numerous quasi-biological children.

10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future Kingdom.
Does he go to his future kingdom? It implies that his father was a king, which most of the others in the Raglan list literally were, with an actual kingdom to pass onto his son. Jesus doesn't return or go anywhere upon reaching manhood, at least in the Gospel of Mark.
That's interpreting "kingdom" too literally. It would be a realm that he would then rule.

11. After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
Is successfully resisting the Devil's tempting a victory? gMark has this only: (1:11-13)
I agree that that's a 0. It's Matthew and Luke where he defeated the Devil by successfully resisting the Devil's temptations.

13. And becomes king.
Is cult-leader enough for this point? How can we tell? Jesus was mockingly described as king -- is that enough for this point? Who knows?
Interpreting "king" broadly as "great leader" is the appropriate way to go, and Lord Raglan himself does that.

14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
Same as above. Jesus never "reigns" at all. Am I being too-literal minded for this? There is nothing in the story that suggests that Jesus is leading uneventfully. In gMark, he is constantly moving around, making converts and enemies. Is there anything there that suggests "he reigns uneventfully"?
Preaching and working miracles are not exactly very dramatic. Getting into arguments is a bit more dramatic, though.

15. Prescribes laws, but
Ipetrich wrote: "Jesus Christ: yes. His teachings can reasonably be considered laws in a broad sense." My suspicion here is that the only reason to consider teachings to be "prescibing laws in a broad sense" is to fit it into the Raglan scale. How do we determine this though?
Some of his teachings are statements of what one ought to do and ought not to do, so those ones, at least, may qualify as laws. He also took on the issue of the validity of some existing laws, stating (1) that all the Law of Moses is still valid, (2) revoking the law that permits retaliation and stating that one must love one's enemies, and (3) weakening the law about the Sabbath, stating that if you really need to, you may work that day.

18. He meets with a mysterious death,
No. Crucifixion isn't a mysterious death. Pilate is surprised that Jesus died so quick. Is this what is meant when applied to the others on the Raglan list?
Yes. Another such death was that of Moses. After about 120 years of good health, he mysteriously got sick and died. Likewise, Romulus mysteriously disappeared from a marsh in a storm.

To be more specific: If we aren't too literal-minded when using the Raglan scale, then Jesus scores high on that scale. But the issue is that the more broad you make the categories, the less useful the scale becomes. But how broad is too broad? How do we tell? Who decides?
That can indeed be a problem, and one can look in Lord Raglan's book The Hero to see how he liked to interpret his criteria. books.google.com has some previews, and they include several of his evaluations.
 
I'm not a real big fan of the Raglan scale because it approaches the issue from assuming the Orthodoxy position of a single narrative tradition and negates textual cultural independence.

To say it more plainly; it compiles all texts into one story and grades that composite story rather than grading each separately.

This idea that the texts in the canon are like multiple editions of an encyclopedia has to be dismissed.
It's really negligent and disrespectful to the texts and the cultural values embedded into them.

It is, to me, about akin to just lumping all Native American tribes into that label and then grading them all as one tribe.
 
I didn't read anything that really caused me to sympathize with using the Raglan scale.

We don't need the Raglan scale.
There's another way to discern if these are possibly fiction or not; identify their cultural belonging and audit cultural literary values within the texts.

We don't need the paleographic equivalent to a Facebook "Is my man cheating on me?" quiz!
We don't need microwavable work.

I know it takes more work to discern cultural probability and then further more work to audit the various narrative values of those cultures in comparison to what is in a given text in query, but that's kind of the point...it is work...not a pop-up quiz.

This approach frustrates me and I have always hated it.
It just negates the work of the larger problem - discerning the cultural basis of the texts!

That kind of should be the most important task; not discerning if Jesus was real or not.
Attempting to discern if Jesus was real or not before knowing the cultural belonging of the texts is ridiculous.

How are you to judge anything about the text if you don't even know which culture's values and perspectives to apply to rendering the text?
Folks, currently, tend to just make huge assumptions - such as always taking the Jewish cultural view, or taking the Roman view, or worse - taking an Orthodoxy tradition view.

The amount of times I've read or heard some phrase along the lines of "A Palestinian Jew during this time..."

But that's just errant on the onset. It is already being assumed that Palestinian Jewish values are applicable.
Clearly, in a case such as John (as the easiest example), this is absolutely not the case.

The entire field, on both sides of the debate, need to slow down and focus on actual anthropological work; not just deductive reasoning from a textual layer alone and crafting up more and more clever means of reasoning or measuring probability from the exact same level of information and hypothesis...repeatedly and endlessly.

I would actually prefer Jesus get yanked from the Historical record for no other reason than to ignite a fire to get work actually done - no official position accepted in either direction until the texts are rested upon regarding their cultural belonging and then a discernment can begin based on that knowledge.


Once you work on this angle, a large portion of these squabbles over Jesus (such as the Raglan scale) become simply meaningless - to me, the Raglan scale debate is like listening to people debate over the philosophical meanings of Romeo and Juliet when they've only watched the 1996 movie and have never read the play, know who Shakespeare is, nor understand what Elizabethan culture was and the role of theater and literature in social commentary and philosophy during that era.

These texts are not without context.
Raglan scale entirely ignores context for an easy-button.

Is your husband cheating on you?
Maybe the quiz was right. Maybe it wasn't.
But there's probably a better way to discern that than a Facebook quiz.
 
Don't you even remember that Brainache's is claiming that Jesus was a Rabbi and Paul was an Herodian?

If Jesus was a Rabbi and Paul was an Herodian then Brainache is implying Jesus the Son of God [God Creator] and Paul the Jew and Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin in the NT are products of Hoax Forgers.

Now, if Jesus and Paul in the NT never had any real existence or there is no actual evidence from antiquity then Brainache's Rabbi and Herodian are products of Hoax Forgers.

There is no actual evidence from antiquity of a Rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth and Paul the Herodian pre 70 CE.

Before 1957 John Frum didn't have an agreed appearance: some say he was a Malaysian native, other say he was a white soldier, others say he was a white navyman, and still other say he was black. Even today John Frum varies from being white and black depending on the group revering him.

Even if you say that Manehivi was the "real" John Frum he had effectively been wiped from oral tradition within 16 years. And 16 years after the latest "traditional" date for Jesus crucifixion (36 CE) is roughly when Paul started writing to everyone.
 
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I'm not a real big fan of the Raglan scale because it approaches the issue from assuming the Orthodoxy position of a single narrative tradition and negates textual cultural independence.

To say it more plainly; it compiles all texts into one story and grades that composite story rather than grading each separately.
There's nothing in the Lord Raglan profile that requires that approach. Nothing. More specifically, there's nothing that says that one cannot address the four Gospels separately. List of Lord Raglan evaluations - Atheism contains some such evaluations. The results:

Matthew: 19
Mark: 11
Luke: 16
John: 13
Combined: 18.5

gMark lacks an early life, making 1 to 10 blank. gJohn is like gMark, but with a rather metaphysical sort of origin as a sort of emanation from God. gLuke has an early life, but without anyone trying to kill Jesus Christ in his infancy. gMatthew includes the latter sort of element, and thus gets the highest score.

An interesting absence is #12, marrying a princess. In the canonical Gospels, JC is single all his life. That is also true of some of the noncanonical ones, though in the Gospel of Philip, JC had kissed Mary Magdalene on the mouth very lovingly.

There are lots of noncanonical speculations about MM being JC's girlfriend or wife, but even then, there seems to be nothing very notable about her or her ancestry, and she was likely a commoner.
 
True, Haile Selassie has much more outside documentation that Jesus Christ does, but that outside documentation makes him a good example of how real people can be subjected to rather extreme mythmaking.

Romulus is a good example of how Mythological characters can be considered real people for hundreds of years .

The Myth Fable of Romulus a son of Son God matches the story Jesus a Son of God.

Romulus was the Son of the God called Mars and a virgin.

Romulus had a brother called Remus.

When Romulus died the day was turned into night.

The dead body of Romulus was never recovered.

Romulus resurrected and appeared to people.

Romulus ascended to heaven.

It is clear that the story of Jesus contains fundamental elements of the Myth fables of Romulus.
 
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OK thanks for that. I disagree with the Authors of "The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition". I don't believe that either Hegesippus, Clement or Eusebius indicate that James was martyred in 69 CE. I believe they cited Josephus as blaming the death of James for setting off the chain of events which led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, but that chain of events took much longer than 12 months to unfold.

What?? Please!!! Examine The Letter on the Council of Nicaea.

It was Eusebius and the Bishops who declared Jesus was God from God and the first born of all creatures.

Jesus was a Myth from the beginning.

Eusebius' Letter on the Council of Nicaea
3. “We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by Whom also all things were made; Who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge the quick and dead.

And we believe also in One Holy Ghost:”


Brainache said:
I'm not sure why Rufinus of Aquileia would know what James knew about the death of Peter, given that he lived three hundred years later and a long way away from these events...

I am not sure why you would know what Rufinus knew given that you live around 1500 years later.
 
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What?? Please!!! Examine The Letter on the Council of Nicaea.

It was Eusebius and the Bishops who declared Jesus was God from God and the first born of all creatures.

Jesus was a Myth from the beginning.

Eusebius' Letter on the Council of Nicaea

Do you think Christianity started at the Council of Nicea?



I am not sure why you would know what Rufinus knew given that you live around 1500 years later.

I have access to a lot more information and Scholarship than he did. I don't pretend to know more about the Clementine Recognitions than him, but I do know enough to say that they might not be 100% accurate.
 
Two issues this morning, both involving "probabilistic" arguments that seem shaky to me.


Identifying with an archetype

I don't see that Raglan's scale adds anything to a proposition that is not in dispute: the Gospels feature a hero named Jesus, showing his entertaining adventures with a band of merry men. If the question were whether the Gospels are historical essays, then the answer would be, presumably, "No, hell no," - or at least unsuccessful essays if that was the authors' intent.

However, the main question is whether Jesus actually lived. I don't see the point in treating this as a "census problem," how many people who are written about with fantastic bits are real vs. imagined. Narratives are not generated by random processes, they are generated by writers deciding to exert the effort to tell a story, and choosing to tell that story rather than another one.

Mark doesn't say why Mark bothered to write a story about Jesus and his merry men, or why he chose to write about Jesus instead of about Julius Caesar or Hercules. If you have an opinion about Mark's intentions, then that opinion surely can be expressed as a probability, just as any other uncertain opinion can be expressed as a probability.

That probability, based on your spidey sense, will be no less useful or interesting than the proportion of "literary hero" stories whose protagonists are real people you happen to count. The reason is that applying that proportion to the problem of Mark is nothing other than restating an opinion that whatever Mark's unknown intent was, it was typical of the intents of the authors of the other stories you looked at. In other words, your spidey sense speaks again.

Whatever probability you choose, it is largely a statement about you, what you believe and how strongly you believe it. Bayes is always a statement about the beliefs of the Bayesian who uses it, or her client. That does not make Bayes useless, but it does render fatuous an extended discussion of whether a personal prior of 33% arrived at through much singing and dancing (reportedly Carrier's confession) improves upon a prior of 50% arrived at by flipping a coin.



The discretion of Paul in sixty dependent trials

By Paul's reckoning, the living Jesus didn't yet outrank Paul - each of them, in life, is or was the same thing, a tzedek. Living Jesus has nothing on Paul. Paul has personally visited the Third Heaven, Paul has personally done the miracles expcted of an apostle (and even now, few claim that Jesus.ever did anything more than they claim for the apostles, too - except the ressurection-and-ascension, and most living Christians profess that Jesus' mother did that). Paul may have had better teachers than Jesus, in Paul's estimation.

An important occasion when Paul addressed something from the "sayings tradition," is the teaching on divorce and remarriage (a mess for a tzedek since it is in conflict with Mosaic teaching), 1 Corithians 7: 10-16. Look at how Paul handles it. He makes damned sure he is not blamed for the demanding and counter-Mosaic teaching. He attributes it to the Lord, but does not quote Jesus.

Why should he? Jesus' words iin life are no more legislative than Paul's own words here and now. Paul's allusion to the teaching has the same authority as Jesus' statement at the time. Jesus can add nothing to Paul's saying that that is how it is - except that Paul wishes not to be blamed for it, probably because he's read Torah and besides, it's a pain in the butt. Maybe not as bad as trimming Mr Happy, but a lower-body pain all the same.

And then Paul goes on to make it equally clear that his own instruction (about when believer and unbeliever, in a "mixed marriage," divorce), is him speaking. He carves out an exception to what he just said that Jesus said. Paul needn't and doesn't explain. Paul's words are legislative, just as Jesus' were..Paul in life and Jesus in life are peers. They can both tell people what to do, 'cause they said so, and they're both speaking with God's commission.

Later, Mark will have a story to tell, probably thinking that Jesus outranked him from early on. Mark quotes Jesus liberally. Paul has already told his story before he writes anything we read, and Jesus didn't outrank Paul in life. Paul doesn't clearly quote Jesus, except on the eve of Jesus' death, after Jesus had made an appointment for his promotion physical, which Paul knows Jesus passed. Jesus almost outranks Paul by then, but not a day before then.
 
Do you think Christianity started at the Council of Nicea?

You seem to have forgotten that it was you who made claims about Eusebius, Hegesippus and Clement.

Brainache said:
...I don't believe that either Hegesippus, Clement or Eusebius indicate that James was martyred in 69 CE.

Do you think Christianity started with Hegesippus, Clement or Eusebius?

May I also remind you that the supposed Hegesippus' writings have not been found and fragments are in writings attributed to Eusebius.

Writings attributed to Clement are considered forgeries or false attribution.

You seem to have forgotten that Eusebius claimed that Hegesippus is IN AGREEMENT with Clement.

James the Lord's brother was ALIVE after Peter's death in the "Recognitions" of Clement.

Eusebius Church History
19. These things are related at length by Hegesippus, who is in agreement with Clement.


The Clement Recognitions
The epistle in which the same Clement, writing to James the Lord's brother, informs him of the death of Peter, and that he had left him his successor in his chair and teaching, and in which also the whole subject of church order is treated, I have not prefixed to this work, both because it is of later date, and because I have already translated and published it.

James the brother of Jesus the Christ [anointed] in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 is not James in Galatians 1.19.

Jesus called the Christ [anointed]is Jesus the High Priest, the Son of Damneus.

Jewish Kings and High Priest were called Christ [anointed] and were physically ANOINTED.

Jesus called the Christ [anointed] in AJ 20.9.1 was ALIVE c 63 CE.

There was simply NO Jewish King or High Priest called Jesus of Nazareth.

Brainache said:
I have access to a lot more information and Scholarship than he did. I don't pretend to know more about the Clementine Recognitions than him, but I do know enough to say that they might not be 100% accurate.

Your statement is very low on logic, facts and is contradictory.

You just claimed to have more information but simultaneously admit you don't know more about the Clement Recognitions than him.

You have no contemporary writings of Eusebius, Hegesippus and Clement.
 
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I'm not a real big fan of the Raglan scale because it approaches the issue from assuming the Orthodoxy position of a single narrative tradition and negates textual cultural independence.

To say it more plainly; it compiles all texts into one story and grades that composite story rather than grading each separately.

This idea that the texts in the canon are like multiple editions of an encyclopedia has to be dismissed.
It's really negligent and disrespectful to the texts and the cultural values embedded into them.

It is, to me, about akin to just lumping all Native American tribes into that label and then grading them all as one tribe.


But that isn't really an argument against the Raglan scale. Anthropologists and Archeologist use overly broad terms all the time ("African Kinship system" anyone?) and we have the works of Joseph Campbell.

The best argument against the Raglan scale would be have an actual historical person score as high as "mythical" people on the thing. Tsar Nicholas II coming in at 14 would be such an example.
 
The Raglan Scale may be useful in helping to identify the genre of the literature under discussion. Whether there ever was a person who might fit some vague definition of an historical Jesus it's apparent he was absorbed by the stock myth-making practiced at the time.

I agree that the differing narratives would merit individual investigation. Paul's Jesus being born of the allegorical woman Sarah stands in contrast to the gMatthew/gLuke tales of a literal birth to a real woman (and aleged descendant of David), while gJohn seems to refer to a more Pauline pre-existent being - almost like a bridge between the (relatively) naturalistic accounts of gMatthew/gLuke and the sudden unexplained appearance of the Jesus figure in gMark.

Likewise the stories of the 'mythological figures' are often numerous and sometimes contradictory, and one can always ask which Heracles is alleged to be a myth, or is consistent with the items on the scale. It's not a precision tool. It can't be proved there wasn't an 'historical Heracles' either - all we have is the literature, which appears to be of dubious value to the historian. Of course it's plausible there were many strong men in the required time and geographical area. Perhaps one was named Heracles.

As we know the practice of narrative history is a matter of opinion, the exercise of one's 'spidey sense' applied to the past - what one thinks more or less 'likely or 'probable' or even 'plausible'. The application of Bayesian methodology is just a way to formalize this process, to make the assumptions of the historians more explicit and open to discussion on a basis of a shared framework.

Unfortunately, until some further literature from Paul turns up, we'll have little idea what he might have thought about a supposed 'pre-crucified' Jesus in relation to what Paul or the other apostles were doing. Whatever one may divine about such notions does indeed tell us more about the ones doing the speculating than informs us about the matters being speculated on.
 
proudfootz

Paul's Jesus being born of the allegorical woman Sarah .
Say what? Assuming we're at Galatians 4: 21-31 , Paul's audience is metaphorically born of the Biblical character Sarah, as is Paul himself. Or are you on another page?
 
But that isn't really an argument against the Raglan scale. Anthropologists and Archeologist use overly broad terms all the time ("African Kinship system" anyone?) and we have the works of Joseph Campbell.

The best argument against the Raglan scale would be have an actual historical person score as high as "mythical" people on the thing. Tsar Nicholas II coming in at 14 would be such an example.
The further details of why that is an argument against the Raglan scale were subsequently posted in post 164, 166, and 171.

And yes, I agree on your point regarding the accuracy of the test itself (however, things like Harry Potter failing to score high on the test, or Tsar Nicholas II failing to score lower on the test aren't really critiques of the scale since the scale is only applicable during a finite window of History and a very large (and vague) cluster of Greco-Roman culture).
 
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Excerpts from Carrier's On The Historicity of Jesus

Greetings all,

Carrier has released his new book "On the Historicity of Jesus: Why we have reason to doubt".

I have read it through and posted some interesting excerpts over on the BC&H forums. Rather than duplicate them here and run afoul of rule 4 about posting length material found elsewhere, I provide links here. (I'd also like to invite members here to join us over on BC&H, it's a good forum with informed and scholarly debate - Peter Kirby runs the site, Neil Godfrey and others post there.)

Carrier's minimal Jesus theories (mythical and historical) :
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&start=130#p14503

Carrier on The Sperm of David :
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&start=130#p14498

Carrier on Born of Woman :
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&start=130#p14501

Carrier on the Ascension of Isaiah :
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&start=140#p14513

Carrier on Jesus ben Ananias as model for Jesus Christ :
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&start=170#p14586

Carrier on 1st C. CE Messianism (and four 'Jesus Christ's) :
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=687&p=14594#p14594


Kapyong
 
Thanks for that Kapyong, that's good stuff. I was about to link to your posts over there, but you beat me to it!
 
Paul's Jesus being born of the allegorical woman Sarah stands in contrast to the gMatthew/gLuke tales of a literal birth to a real woman (and aleged descendant of David), while gJohn seems to refer to a more Pauline pre-existent being - almost like a bridge between the (relatively) naturalistic accounts of gMatthew/gLuke and the sudden unexplained appearance of the Jesus figure in gMark.

First of all there are multiple characters under the name of Paul.

In any event, the Pauline Jesus in the Canon is nowhere claimed to be born of Sarah literally or not. No Apologetic writer who made references to the Pauline Corpus claimed that Paul's Jesus was born of Sarah.

Apologetic sources claimed the Pauline writers knew of gLuke.

The Pauline Jesus is the same Myth Jesus in the Gospels--the Son of God born of a woman.

Luke 1:35 KJV
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Galatians 4:4 KJV
But when the fulness of the time was come , God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

proudfootz said:
Unfortunately, until some further literature from Paul turns up, we'll have little idea what he might have thought about a supposed 'pre-crucified' Jesus in relation to what Paul or the other apostles were doing. Whatever one may divine about such notions does indeed tell us more about the ones doing the speculating than informs us about the matters being speculated on.

Unfortunately, in the Pauline Corpus it is claimed that the Jews killed the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, who was raised from the dead, which is completely compatible with virtually all apologetic writers.

The entire Pauline Corpus were composed AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.
 
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