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Dowsing by a Skeptic

SaskMick said:
[ . . . ]I will be convinced that dowsing is BS when the ideomotor effect is a proven fact rather than just a theory.:)
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You're in luck. The ideomotor effect is that, an effect, rather than a theory.



SaskMick said:
Because it's real dowsing for a valuable resource. Tests are petty at best.
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How do you explain your 'success' when dowsing for coins in your wife's hands?
Why is trying to expand understanding about dowsing petty?





Foolmewunz said:
Can someone dowse me up an answer to the math here. (They promised me no math in GenSkepPara.)

Here are Jack Coe's numbers.

Apparently he finds 215 wells a year. Wow! That's one for each working day of the year.

See below:



But that's nuttin'! He apparently averages more than 1 per day, every day, according to this blurb.



Now, assuming that he isn't just pulling those figures out of his butt, that could mean 215 successful wells out of "over 400" sites. That's about 50/50. How does that relate to the chance of finding water at any given location?
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Thanks, FMW, for doing the maths so we didn't have to.
Even in the fellow's publicity blurb, he doesn't claim more than a 50/50 success rate in his dowsing.
And he has the nerve to charge for this 'service'?

Can you imagine a hairdresser claiming a 50% success rate for dyeing hair charging for their services?
 
SaskMick said:
I was just waiting for someone to say How convenient :D

Was James McCormick's claim true. Yes

Does his ADE651 work. Yes


Does it work for everyone . No


Did he explain that to his customers . No

Is he a con man. Sort of:)


Did he deserve prison time Yes



Can you explain everything Dubious Dick ?
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Where is your evidence that the ADE651 works? We can then compare that to the overwhelming weight of evidence that it can not and does not work.

No, I cannot explain everything, but one thing I can explain is that if one cannot explain something then one cannot insert any old garbage as an explanation.

I'll give you credit for one thing at least. You are a persistent non-skeptic and peddlar of poop.
 
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ComfySlippers said:
Are you selling these?
I'm looking for a turtle repellant.
Should work?
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As a matter of fact, although my rock is nominally for repelling tigers I have also discovered that it repels all sorts of exotic animals, including turtles. Lions, elephants, snakes, wallabies, the list goes on. I have been using this rock for my whole life without a single failure - what more proof do you need?

I have some speculative ideas about how it might work, but I'm not really interested in finding out. I'm only interested in meaningful results, and my tiger-free life speaks for itself. :)
 
Recovering Agnostic said:
As a matter of fact, although my rock is nominally for repelling tigers I have also discovered that it repels all sorts of exotic animals, including turtles. Lions, elephants, snakes, wallabies, the list goes on. I have been using this rock for my whole life without a single failure - what more proof do you need?

I have some speculative ideas about how it might work, but I'm not really interested in finding out. I'm only interested in meaningful results, and my tiger-free life speaks for itself. :)
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That's nothing - I find gold every time I wear my lucky underpants when I go gold prospecting.

Admittedly, it would be more impressive if they enabled me to find gold when I wasn't gold prospecting, but dowsing with one's butt cheeks does have its limitations...
 
Kid Eager said:
That's nothing - I find gold every time I wear my lucky underpants when I go gold prospecting.

Admittedly, it would be more impressive if they enabled me to find gold when I wasn't gold prospecting, but dowsing with one's butt cheeks does have its limitations...
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Clearly, you need to be in an appropriate frame of mind for this power to work. Frame of mind is very important, I understand.
 
SaskMick said:
I don't have the time to answer everyone's posts, sorry about that.:(
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No, you just don't answer the questions that you don't like.

So, for the 4th time - What do you intend to do with your dowsing ability, other than talk about it?
 
Recovering Agnostic said:
As a matter of fact, although my rock is nominally for repelling tigers I have also discovered that it repels all sorts of exotic animals, including turtles. Lions, elephants, snakes, wallabies, the list goes on. I have been using this rock for my whole life without a single failure - what more proof do you need?

I have some speculative ideas about how it might work, but I'm not really interested in finding out. I'm only interested in meaningful results, and my tiger-free life speaks for itself. :)
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Is it location specific?

For example, can it repel tigers in India? Or elephants in the Serengeti?

:)
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Simple: Six cardboard boxes, one coin, one die, one assistant.

The assistant rolls the die to choose one of the boxes and places the coin under that box. The dowser then uses their dowsing skills to scan the boxes to try to locate the coin.

The experiment needs to be repeated several times. On the first attempt, the dowser is allowed to watch where the assistant places the coin but the second time he is not allowed to see any of that process and, for good measure, the assistant should withdraw while the dowser works so that they can't unintentionally give him any clues.

Repeat this process of unblinded and blinded attempts until you're satisfied that a) you are quite relaxed enough to dowse in the unblinded attempts and b) you have established whether or not your dowsing works in the blinded attempts.

That's all. No need to involve any skeptics to make you stressed about proving anything. I think we'd all be content for you simply to prove the reality of your ability to yourself.
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This still allows the assistant to leave clues, consciously or not. Better to use six boxes, with six objects randomly placed under them and roll a die *after* the assistant leaves to determine which object to dowse for.
 
Rincewind said:
Is it location specific?

For example, can it repel tigers in India? Or elephants in the Serengeti?

:)
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The change of location might affect my state of mind too much, and I'm not interested in finding out. But I don't care anyway - I don't need to prove anything, and this rock's been keeping tigers away all my life. That's solid results, not airy fairy theory. Explain that with your so-called science!
 
SaskMick said:
Unverifiable to you maybe, Not to the people who drink the water every day:)

Here's a half decent result..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7R8ul7vABM
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http://images.water.nv.gov/images/publications/recon reports/rpt55-granite_springs_valley.pdf
Check out the map in figure 2 just after page 10 in the document.The underground water in Granite Springs is easily accessible (less than 200 feet from the surface) over an area roughly 10 miles wide by 20 miles long. It's hard for a dowser to fail when he has a hit zone of ~200 square miles and was guided by "satellite imaging and high-tech radar."

Color me unimpressed.
 
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SaskMick said:
The thing that disappoints me at the BSD forum is the lack of responses sometimes. I asked about the "remote" dowsing a couple of times but got no reply. I am left with the conclusion that they have never heard of it, and have not thought of trying it.

It's the remote dowsing that really interests me. I have tried it over the phone, and it works like I was standing watching. No attempt at an explanation from anyone at the BSD,

I will be convinced that dowsing is BS when the ideomotor effect is a proven fact rather than just a theory.:)
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I notice that often when I am browsing the BSD, I am the only one there, and at most, 1 to 4 members and a few guests. Did you ever wonder why there is so little general interest in a phenomenon with such huge potential for doing good...or evil? Did you ever wonder why one guy keeps posting articles with no comment, and another member posts hundreds of pictures of birds and calls them UFOs?

No one really wants to explain anything at BSD. Ian just handwaves away the ideomotor effect. I posted a video that clearly demonstrated the use of a pendulum, and you don't seem to find it even remotely interesting. It is this disdain for any scientific approach by you and by BSD that is frustrating to many of us at JREF. I genuinely doubt that where medicines are involved you would claim the same prideful ignorance of proof of efficacy of a life saving drug by dint of the scientific method.

Most of us care about what is true and provable, and BSD takes pride in ignoring that particular bit of potential for proof which might invade the one arcane area in which they can claim some expertise. Being a dowser gives then importance, and any challenge to their beliefs will produce unpleasant results, as you have already noticed. There is an unwritten law among dowsers, don't ask questions and don't annoy the Christians, who think it is an evil practice to begin with. You don't seem to understand that dowsing is a cult of believers...period. Very similar to those who practice and staunchly defend homeopathy.

I am not yet decided on your bona fides as an ex-skeptic, and I think much of what you claim to have done and believe is merely to taunt your fellow members at JREF, but I predict that if you persist in asking too many questions at BSD, they will spit you out and brand you as a pseudo-skeptic. I'm sure you noticed how one member bristled at your having used dowsing to freak out the religious.

The ideomotor effect is not a theory, it is simply a trivially true fact and a demonstrable bit of human behavior. To claim otherwise is merely foolish after having been shown clear evidence, and especially in light of not having tried it yourself.

SaskMick, you are welcome to ignore questions about ouija boards and the other hundreds of divination methods, of which dowsing is but one, but it doesn't matter. Most of us at JREF post for the benefit of others, the lurkers who read these threads and decide for themselves. We persist because we care what is true, not because we engage in wishful thinking.

SaskMick said:
I think that's partly why many dowser don't charge for anything but their expenses. I would not charge either.


I want to understand the phenomenon more than anyone, I'm working on it almost continuously.
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You have not answered my question. What could our possible motive be for denying dowsing if it is in fact a real phenomenon? Are we a conspiracy of evil? Why do dowsers dislike skeptics but refuse to provide proof when it would be such an easy thing to do? Why are you claiming with pride such gullibility as to believe what some con man claims about finding water when there is not proof?

ETA: I forgot to include this portion of a previously posted link. How people are fooled by the ideomotor effect. The Chevreul pendulum will do just about anything that you want it to do. It is an experiment that can be performed easily in private, all alone just imagining the movement in your own mind, or with someone else suggesting the movements.



Finally, Chevreul did what none of his predecessors had thought of doing. He conducted the equivalent of what we would call a double-blind trial. He blindfolded himself and then he had an assistant interpose or remove the glass plate between the pendulum and the mercury without his knowledge. Under these conditions, nothing happened. Chevreul concluded, "So long as I believed the movement possible, it took place; but after discovering the cause I could not reproduce it." His experiments with the pendulum show how easy it is "to mistake illusions for realities, whenever we are confronted by phenomena in which the human sense-organs are involved under conditions imperfectly analyzed." Chevreul used this principle of expectant attention to account for the phenomena of dowsing, movements of the exploring pendulum, and the then current fad among spiritualists, table-turning.
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Not trying to be mean, but frankly, in my opinion, anyone--dowsing enthusiast or agnostic--viewing this video and trying the experiment for himself, who does not immediately have a Eureka moment concerning the reality of the ideomotor effect is by definition either exhibiting cult like beliefs, being disingenuous or not intelligent enough to grasp its significance.
 
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Giordano said:
So now it is the opposite of what you first said: dowsing only works when it is important, not in " petty" tests. Do you think you are strengthening your position here?
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Except it always works in the open portion of the "petty" tests. I'm sure there must be some sort of creative rationalization to explain this away, but it doesn't look like he is going to provide it.
 
SaskMick said:
I am new to dowsing and am learning as I go. Naturally I change my ideas as I learn, and no doubt will be changing even more as my knowledge increases :)
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Interesting: you gave two opposite explanations within 24 hrs. Is there more than one person using your account? Or given it is supposed to be one person per account, did you change your mind 180 degrees so quickly? You must have learned a lot in the last day or so.

Again, it very interesting that the only explanation that holds up in all of your explanations is that dowsing doesn't work in a proper test because dowsing doesn't work. Mr. Randi, when asked, stated that dowsers are the most convinced, most sincere paranormal claimants he ever met, even although they are wrong. From what I can tell, they can always explain away any negative test results (e.g. interference in a gold dowsing claim due to "gold" titles on a book jacket that were not even real gold, dowsing doesn't work for a monetary award, it has to be moving water, there is too much interference from the pipes in the house, tiredness, skeptics dampen out their ability, etc. It is endless, yet the dowsers claim success under the same conditions when they know where the target is, and there are endless stories and videos of dowsers finding stuff all the time (so it should be very hard). Reality is what remains when the belief goes away.
 
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By the way, SiskMick has posted that winning a $ 1 million from the JREF challenge would probably not be important to him (a theme given by many paranormal claimants when they are asked if they would consider the challenge). I just wanted him to know that even though I can continue to live well without the $ 1 million, if he ever won it, I would be happy to have him transfer it to me. An extra $1 million would probably not change the fundamentals of my life, but would be very useful in general to me. And I don't think the money is cursed. By the way, if anyone tells you that your money is cursed and that they can remove the curse if you withdraw the money and give it to them as cash in a paper bag, I suggest that you not do that. I've seen the result on TV...
 
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