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Mass. abortion clinic buffer zone law struck down

So all we're left with in your whining is, well, speech. And yes, the SC justices have to put up with hostile and offensive speech in public, just like the rest of us.

Try it. Try standing somewhere in public that isn't in front of an "abortion clinic", saying the things those protestors say at the volume they say them. You will be arrested and charged with "disturbing the peace". It's not about free speech, it's about acceptable targets.
 
Spitting on people is illegal. It's assault. Nothing about this ruling makes it legal. Furthermore, from the link in the OP:
Attorney General Martha Coakley, whose office defended the law in arguments before the court, said the decision left intact part of the law banning deliberate obstruction of clinic entrances.​
So all we're left with in your whining is, well, speech. And yes, the SC justices have to put up with hostile and offensive speech in public, just like the rest of us.

Your objection is hysterical and irrational.

So I can walk up to a woman, get within an inch of her ear and yell at the top of my lungs, "YOU'RE GONNA BURN IN HELL YOU W***E!", provided I do not actually physically obstruct her path. Good to know.

Hey, does this apply to states with open carry laws? You can scream profanities at woman while waving a machine gun around.
 
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Try it. Try standing somewhere in public that isn't in front of an "abortion clinic", saying the things those protestors say at the volume they say them. You will be arrested and charged with "disturbing the peace". It's not about free speech, it's about acceptable targets.

I don't get it. You're claiming that these actions are already illegal under different statutes. If they are already illegal, then what's the problem? Are you also claiming that the police are failing to enforce existing laws, and that the remedy is new laws that they will magically enforce when they wouldn't enforce the old ones? Isn't the proper response to make sure that the police do enforce the old laws which you claim already prohibit this undesirable behavior? And isn't that remedy still available?

There are quite a few steps missing in your chain of logic.
 
So I can walk up to a woman, get within an inch of her ear and yell at the top of my lungs, "YOU'RE GONNA BURN IN HELL YOU W***E!", provided I do not actually physically obstruct her path. Good to know.

Straw man is full of straw.

Hey, does this apply to states with open carry laws? You can scream profanities at woman while waving a machine gun around.

Try it. When you get arrested, charged, and convicted, and appeal your case to the supreme court, let me know if they come back with a unanimous decision in your favor.

And when they don't, ponder why your scenario really isn't the same as the case they just decided.
 
Massachusetts used to have a law that required protesters to stay so many feet away from patients or clinic workers. The protestors got around this by standing shoulder to shoulder blocking the clinic door. The buffer law did not apply if the patient approached the protester.

If me and some friends tried to do that to prevent people from going into a McDonalds, the manager would rightly be within his rights to call the police and have us fined/arrested for trespassing. Why is this legal in the case of abortion clinics?

Try it. Try standing somewhere in public that isn't in front of an "abortion clinic", saying the things those protestors say at the volume they say them. You will be arrested and charged with "disturbing the peace". It's not about free speech, it's about acceptable targets.

Exactly.
 
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If me and some friends tried to do that to prevent people from going into a McDonalds, the manager would rightly be within his rights to call the police and have us fined/arrested for trespassing. Why is this legal in the case of abortion clinics?

First off, you can't trespass if you don't actually go onto the private property in question, so the manager could only get you arrested on that charge if you entered MacDonalds property, not if you were on the public sidewalk. And the same applies to abortion clinics: they can prohibit people from entering their private property, and have them arrested for trespassing if they don't leave. This case wasn't about what happens on the abortion clinic's property, so trespassing laws have no relevance here.

Second, it's NOT legal to prevent people from entering an abortion clinic, as far as I can tell. Didn't you see that quote I posted above from the original link where Coakley pointed out that the prohibition on obstructing access was not overturned?
 
I don't get it. You're claiming that these actions are already illegal under different statutes. If they are already illegal, then what's the problem? Are you also claiming that the police are failing to enforce existing laws, and that the remedy is new laws that they will magically enforce when they wouldn't enforce the old ones? Isn't the proper response to make sure that the police do enforce the old laws which you claim already prohibit this undesirable behavior? And isn't that remedy still available?

There are quite a few steps missing in your chain of logic.

Um, I didn't say any of that. You wish to debate yourself, fine, don't drag me into it.

I'm just pointing out that the behavior protestors get away with in front of abortion clinics is not tolerated anywhere else in public. Legal or not, you will be arrested for attempting it.
 
Um, I didn't say any of that. You wish to debate yourself, fine, don't drag me into it.

I'm just pointing out that the behavior protestors get away with in front of abortion clinics is not tolerated anywhere else in public. Legal or not, you will be arrested for attempting it.

You're still not making any sense. Is the behavior you're talking about legal or not?

If it's not legal, then your problem seems to be that the law is not enforced in certain contexts, and passing a different law is not a very good remedy for that.

If it is legal, then you seem to be saying that the police will violate the law to restrict people's rights in a non-abortion clinic setting. That is not something we should tolerate either, nor can an abuse of police power in one context serve as an excuse to reduce people's rights in another.

And if the behavior is legal but it shouldn't be legal, then letting the police restrict that behavior without legal authority is still not acceptable, nor should laws restricting that behavior apply to only abortion clinics.

But I cannot find anywhere in anything you've said any actual support for what the Supreme Court actually overturned.

You accuse me of arguing against things you did not say, which is partly true: I'm arguing with logical inferences of what you said. Or I'm trying to, anyways. What you said doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense, there's a lot that you haven't made clear but which has direct bearing on what you did say, and whatever you really think may not be logically coherent either. And you aren't managing to clarify it.
 
I think better enforcement of harassment laws would help. Abortion protesters do get away with more because of the political cover they get. That is to say, there is political backlash against full enforcement of laws against abortion protesters so it doesn't happen as much as it should. The exclusion zones give political cover, a level of abstraction, that helps blunt that. Abortion protesters also don't actually have to be on the right side of the law to accomplish what they want. So some of them get arrested for disturbing the peace or harassment, which probably plead down to misdemeanors. Even those arrests give the protesters a win because they deter people seeking services more than they deter protesters. They're using the fear of assault, harassment, shame, and stress to keep people away. No, that's not how all protests work, nor is it how all abortion protesters work. But it's how enough of the abortion protesters work that it's become a specific issue.

On one hand, I don't like unreasonable limits on free speech. On the other hand, there are specific circumstances that make it more complicated. Disagreeing that the solution is to have buffer zones is one thing, to hand wave the aggravating circumstances is another.
 
But I cannot find anywhere in anything you've said any actual support for what the Supreme Court actually overturned.

You're right Zig, he didn't. He even restated his point again. Consider what that means.
 
I agree with the court. Make it easier for protestors to get their speech across -- spitting on young women and calling them bitch-whores (which is what Jesus would do).
 
You're right Zig, he didn't. He even restated his point again. Consider what that means.

I have no idea what it means or what his point was. He interjected himself into an exchange between me and jj where jj objected to the SC's decision, and I basically said jj's complaint was baseless. If he's defending jj's position (and therefore criticizing the SC decision), I can't see on what basis. If he's not defending jj's position or objecting to the SC decision, I don't know why he posted in response to me.
 
I agree with the court. Make it easier for protestors to get their speech across -- spitting on young women and calling them bitch-whores (which is what Jesus would do).

Not only that, but some of the protesters are terrible shots. This gives them the added boost they need to get a clean kill.
 
My concern is that the justices have just made life easier for religious zealots that believe God gave them permission to act like ********.

The abortion clinic buffer zone was rather modest compared to the half mile protective bubble that kept George W. Bush from hearing any objections to his policies. It is a fraction of the size of the marble paved no free speech zone in front of the Supreme Court. Or the no free speech sidewalk in front of the White House. It was big enough to keep the sides apart and limited opportunities for the protesters to use physical force against clinic patients or employees.

The anti abortion protests were never about free speech. They were about intimidation and physical threats. I fear this ruling will encourage a resumption of the violence that we have seen before.

On a side note, can anyone explain why those now in prison for killing abortion providers are allowed to correspond with those in the movement on the outside?
 
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The opinion's [PDF] syllabus get right to the point (which is a good feature for a syllabus to have):

In 2007, Massachusetts amended its Reproductive Health Care Facilities Act, which had been enacted in 2000 to address clashes between abortion opponents and advocates of abortion rights outside clinics where abortions were performed. The amended version of the Act makes it a crime to knowingly stand on a “public way or sidewalk” within 35 feet of an entrance or driveway to any “reproductive health care facility,” defined as “a place, other than within or upon the grounds of a hospital, where abortions are offered or performed.” [Mass. Gen. Laws, ch. 266, §§120E½]. The Act exempts from this prohibition four classes of individuals, including “employees or agents of such facility acting within the scope of their employment.” Another provision of the Act proscribes the knowing obstruction of access to an abortion clinic. McCullen and the other petitioners are individuals who attempt to engage women approaching Massachusetts abortion clinics in “side walk counseling,” which involves offering information about alternatives to abortion and help pursuing those options. They claim that the 35-foot buffer zones have displaced them from their previous positions outside the clinics, considerably hampering their counseling efforts. Their attempts to communicate with patients are further thwarted, they claim, by clinic “escorts,” who accompany arriving patients through the buffer zones to the clinic entrances. Petitioners sued Attorney General Coakley and other Commonwealth officials, seeking to enjoin the Act’s enforcement on the ground that it violates the First and Fourteenth Amendments, both on its face and as applied to them. The District Court denied both challenges, and the First Circuit affirmed. With regard to petitioners’ facial challenge, the First Circuit held that the Act was a reasonable “time, place, and manner” regulation under the test set forth in Ward v. Rock Against Racism.

Held: The Massachusetts Act violates the First Amendment.

(a) By its very terms, the Act restricts access to “public way” and “sidewalk,” places that have traditionally been open for speech activities and that the Court has accordingly labeled “traditional public fora.” The government’s ability to regulate speech in such locations is “very limited.” “[E]ven in a public forum,” however, “the government may impose reasonable restrictions on the time, place, or manner of protected speech, provided the restrictions ‘are justified without reference to the content of the regulated speech, that they are narrowly tailored to serve a significant governmental interest, and that they leave open ample alternative channels for communication of the information.’ ”

(b) Because the Act is neither content nor viewpoint based, it need not be analyzed under strict scrutiny.
(1) The Act is not content based simply because it establishes buffer zones only at abortion clinics, as opposed to other kinds of facilities. First, the Act does not draw content-based distinctions on its face. Whether petitioners violate the Act “depends” not “on what they say,” but on where they say it. Second, even if a facially neutral law disproportionately affects speech on certain topics, it remains content neutral so long as it is “ ‘justified without reference to the content of the regulated speech.’ ” The Act’s purposes include protecting public safety, patient access to healthcare, and unobstructed use of public sidewalks and streets. The Court has previously deemed all these concerns to be content neutral. An intent to single out for regulation speech about abortion cannot be inferred from the Act’s limited scope. “States adopt laws to address the problems that confront them.” There was a record of crowding, obstruction, and even violence outside Massachusetts abortion clinics but not at other kinds of facilities in the Commonwealth.
(2) The Act’s exemption for clinic employees and agents acting within the scope of their employment does not appear to be an attempt to favor one viewpoint about abortion over the other. Given that some kind of exemption was necessary to allow individuals who work at the clinics to enter or remain within the buffer zones, the “scope of employment” qualification simply ensures that the exemption is limited to its purpose of allowing the employees to do their jobs. Even assuming that some clinic escorts have expressed their views on abortion inside the zones, the record does not suggest that such speech was within the scope of the escorts’ employment. If it turned out that a particular clinic authorized its employees to speak about abortion in the buffer zones, that would support an as-applied challenge to the zones at that clinic.

(c) Although the Act is content neutral, it is not “narrowly tailored” because it “burden substantially more speech than is necessary to further the government’s legitimate interests.” The buffer zones serve the Commonwealth’s legitimate interests in maintaining public safety on streets and sidewalks and in preserving access to adjacent reproductive healthcare facilities. At the same time, however, they impose serious burdens on petitioners’ speech, depriving them of their two primary methods of communicating with arriving patients: close, personal conversations and distribution of literature. Those forms of expression have historically been closely associated with the transmission of ideas. While the Act may allow petitioners to “protest” outside the buffer zones, petitioners are not protestors; they seek not merely to express their opposition to abortion, but to engage in personal, caring, consensual conversations with women about various alternatives. It is thus no answer to say that petitioners can still be seen and heard by women within the buffer zones. If all that the women can see and hear are vociferous opponents of abortion, then the buffer zones have effectively stifled petitioners’ message.
(2) The buffer zones burden substantially more speech than necessary to achieve the Commonwealth’s asserted interests. Subsection (e) of the Act already prohibits deliberate obstruction of clinic entrances. Massachusetts could also enact legislation similar to the federal Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act of 1994, 18 U. S. C. §248(a)(1), which imposes criminal and civil sanctions for obstructing, intimidating, or interfering with persons obtaining or providing reproductive health services. Obstruction of clinic driveways can readily be addressed through existing local traffic ordinances. While the Commonwealth contends that individuals can inadvertently obstruct access to clinics simply by gathering in large numbers, that problem could be addressed through a law requiring crowds blocking a clinic entrance to disperse for a limited period when ordered to do so by the police. In any event, crowding appears to be a problem only at the Boston clinic, and even there, only on Saturday mornings.

The Commonwealth has not shown that it seriously undertook to address these various problems with the less intrusive tools readily available to it. It identifies not a single prosecution or injunction against individuals outside abortion clinics since the 1990s. The Commonwealth responds that the problems are too widespread for individual prosecutions and injunctions to be effective. But again, the record indicates that the problems are limited principally to the Boston clinic on Saturday mornings, and the police there appear per*fectly capable of singling out lawbreakers. The Commonwealth also claims that it would be difficult to prove intentional or deliberate obstruction or intimidation and that the buffer zones accordingly make the police’s job easier. To meet the narrow tailoring requirement, however, the government must demonstrate that alternative measures that burden substantially less speech would fail to achieve the government’s interests, not simply that the chosen route is easier. In any event, to determine whether someone intends to block access to a clinic, a police officer need only order him to move; if he refuses, then there is no question that his continued conduct is knowing or intentional. For similar reasons, the Commonwealth’s reliance on Burson v. Freeman, 504 U. S. 191, is misplaced. There, the Court upheld a law establishing buffer zones outside polling places on the ground that less restrictive measures were inadequate. But whereas “[v]oter intimidation and election fraud” are “difficult to detect,” obstruction and harassment at abortion clinics are anything but subtle. And while the police “generally are barred from the vicinity of the polls to avoid any appearance of coercion in the electoral process,” they maintain a significant presence outside Massachusetts abortion clinics. In short, given the vital First Amendment interests at stake, it is not enough for Massachusetts simply to say that other approaches have not worked.

708 F. 3d 1, reversed and remanded.
​


The court did not protect spitting on people accessing the clinic, yelling at people accessing the clinic, obstructing the clinic entrance, obstructing the sidewalk outside the clinic or even mass protesting in areas used to access the clinic.
 
So all we're left with in your whining is, well, speech. And yes, the SC justices have to put up with hostile and offensive speech in public, just like the rest of us.
Except for the protest exclusion zone around the Supreme Court, except for that.

Daredelvis
 
I have no idea what it means or what his point was. He interjected himself into an exchange between me and jj where jj objected to the SC's decision, and I basically said jj's complaint was baseless. If he's defending jj's position (and therefore criticizing the SC decision), I can't see on what basis. If he's not defending jj's position or objecting to the SC decision, I don't know why he posted in response to me.

Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you owned this thread. This thread that you didn't start, and I posted in before you did. If it were a sidewalk I could scream in your face, but since it's not I'll just continue to post whatever I like, wherever I like, whether you "know why" or not.
 
Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you owned this thread. This thread that you didn't start, and I posted in before you did. If it were a sidewalk I could scream in your face, but since it's not I'll just continue to post whatever I like, wherever I like, whether you "know why" or not.

As long as that sidewalk is not around the Supreme Court. If you did it there, you would be arrested. Now go to a venue where certain people have a track record of becoming violent, and killing people... go there, and the Supreme Court has no problem with it.

Daredelvis
 
Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you owned this thread.

I don't, and never claimed to. But you didn't simply post in this thread, you quoted me. I assumed that your post was intended as a reply to what I said, because that's generally the reason that people quote other people in threads. But perhaps that assumption was wrong. Perhaps you're just rambling, and the fact that you quoted me has no connection to those posts. Perhaps this is just your version of forum performance art: it doesn't have to make sense, it's just supposed to provoke.

In any case, it's clear that you're not interested in communicating a coherent position regarding the exchange I had with jj, so I think we're done.
 
As long as that sidewalk is not around the Supreme Court. If you did it there, you would be arrested.

You have your facts wrong. There are no restrictions on protests on the sidewalk around the Supreme Court. The restrictions you refer to only apply to what is considered the grounds of the Supreme Court itself. That includes a considerable amount of outdoor space, but it does NOT include the surrounding sidewalk.

Abortion clinics are permitted to restrict speech on their own grounds as well, and can even deny access to anyone they choose on those grounds. Your complaint really boils down to the Supreme Court owning a large plaza that abortion clinics do not typically have.
 

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