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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Am I correct in the following points?...

P1. Regardless of the source of CO2 (natural or anthropogenic), increases in atmospheric CO2 drives increases in global temperature.
Other things being equal, yes it does.

P2. As per the paleoclimate data, CO2 levels rise following increases in temperature.
Yes, and as per that same data the temperature continues to rise after the CO2 increases.

Without considering any other factors, P1 and P2 should lead to a geometric progression (feedback cycle) of increasing temperatures and CO2 levels.
Yes, but in this case the progression is not unbounded. Each increment is less than the previous one, and soon becomes small enough to disappear into background noise. This is the point of equilibrium following the initial perturbation.

If the above points are correct, some questions....

Q1. Regardless of the source of CO2, at what point do CO2 levels have to reach to engage this feedback cycle so that it is irrevocable (self-maintaining)? For lack of a better term, I'll call this the Point of No Return. (PoNR).
Good question.

Q2. Have we reached the PoNR?
We need a good answer to Q1 before we can tell but it would have to involve some new feedback process, such as methane clathrate collapse.

Q3. What mechanism(s) breaks this feedback cycle so that temperatures and CO2 stop rising?
The diminishing returns on each feedback cycle damps the usual process out. In the case of clathrate collapse it's possible that there will be increasing returns on each cycle for a while but the available clathrate will eventually run out.

(Clathrate collapse is very unlikely, it seems to me, or it would have happened before and show up in ice-cores.)

Q4. Related to Q3, what mechanism(s) causes CO2 levels to drop below the PoNR where they cannot restart the cycle?
Either equilibrium is reached or CO2 sources are used up.
 
R-j claimed
Shucks, I can even prove it is happening,
you mean like you you "proved" NA winters were getting colder. Pardon our justified skepticism. Your idea of "proof" is sadly deficient...... factually incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Fair Witness
Am I correct in the following points?...

P1. Regardless of the source of CO2 (natural or anthropogenic), increases in atmospheric CO2 drives increases in global temperature.

P2. As per the paleoclimate data, CO2 levels rise following increases in temperature.

You have to be a bit careful with this as in most cases CO2 is a feedback but in the specific case now CO2 is a primary driver.

More info here.

http://www.yaleclimatemediaforum.or...a-feedback-and-forcing-in-the-climate-system/

••

We have altered the CO2 cycle by reintroducing long sequestered fossil carbon by way of burning hydrocarbon fuels.

The biome and weathering can pick up excess CO2 over time plus there is the massive sik or emitter the ocean represents.

When an orbital cycle cools the planet then the ocean cools, absorbs more CO2 which futher cools the planet.

So it magnifies the historical drivers of climate change.

We've mucked with it and made it THE primary driver of climate change.

You can see the reversed course here....Holocene optimum about 8k BP and slowly drifting cooler and then we came along with industrial civilization.

29084301.jpg


We've pretty much reversed the cooling over the last 8,000 years in a couple of centuries.
It's where we are heading that is the concern and the uncertainties in projecting outcomes are two.

How much of the available fossil fuel will we burn
How sensitive is the climate to that increase.
 
Then it should be a relatively simple process to post the original data and the methodology used to "improve" it ... and the scientific basis for that process. ;)
As previously provided by Kestrel : ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2009.pdf.

Table 1 (Quality assurance checks applied to daily data) is particularly useful, and contains such gems as

"Internal Consistency : Identifies days on which the maximum temperature is less than the minimum temperature"
which could certainly use some improvement.
 
In toto, and as stated, you are not correct.

If you would like to discuss the errors and misunderstandings in each of your points, we can explore them in more detail. Once we have the points clarified then you can revise your questions to reflect more accurate understandings and we can explore those questions.

In follow-up:

P1. Regardless of the source of CO2 (natural or anthropogenic), increases in atmospheric CO2 drives increases in global temperature.
First, there are a few little vocabulary distinctions that are necessary to discuss as a part of making sure that we stay on track. A Climate Driver is a group of factors and influences that act in concert to impact and influence climate. CO2 ratios are an atmospheric composition factor that directly influences the surface temperatures (among other impacts and influences). CO2 can act in a feedback role, but it can also act as a primary forcing factor. A climate forcing factor is an influence that directly impacts a specific aspect of climate. In the case of CO2, it acts as a forcing which influences increases (or decreases) in surface temperature due to the nature of how CO2 interacts with radiative energies (predominantly a narrow range of EM frequencies) transiting the atmosphere.

Simplified explanation:

AGW is an example of a climate driver.

Rising CO2 levels are one of the radiative forcing elements that work in association with others to create the AGW climate driver.

P2. As per the paleoclimate data, CO2 levels rise following increases in temperature.

Without considering any other factors, P1 and P2 should lead to a geometric progression (feedback cycle) of increasing temperatures and CO2 levels.

Paleoclimate data reflects instances where CO2 has acted as a feedback factor to both enhance small externally forced environmental temperature increases and decreases (e.g. Milankovitch cycle forcings). In these feedback roles, CO2 equilibration lags temperature changes.

Paleoclimate data also reflects instances where CO2 has acted as a primary forcing factor when natural CO2 reservoirs are induced to release large amounts of stored and previously sequestered CO2 into the atmosphere/active carbon cycle (e.g. the PETM, mid-Cretaceous Warming (~120Mya), Early Jurassic warming (183 Mya), and the modern Anthropocene AGW).

As for “runaway feedback cascades,” CO2 is not a good candidate for this type of effect under conditions of the typical insolation and STP (Standard Temperatures and Pressures) of the Earth’s averaged climate. The more CO2 in the atmosphere, the more CO2 it takes to affect surface temperature increases at STP (changes, significant pressure differences, for instance might result in a situation that more closely reflects your contemplated scenario – e.g. Venus situation – though water vapor probably played a significant role in the early runaway GHG situation on Venus)

If the above points are correct, some questions....
Alec was correct, even with the reframing necessary to make your points more accurately reflect mainstream science understandings, there are some answers to be given with regard to your questions.

Q1. Regardless of the source of CO2, at what point do CO2 levels have to reach to engage this feedback cycle so that it is irrevocable (self-maintaining)? For lack of a better term, I'll call this the Point of No Return. (PoNR).

In reconsidering the actual nature of CO2 and AGW, a similar concern is the fact that many of the same reservoirs that act as the feedback CO2 stores when the climate warms naturally through cyclical patterns such as the Milankovitch cycles, are going to release their reserves according to temperature (irrespective of what is causing that warming). These are the carbon reservoirs of our planet’s soils, waters, shores, and shallow water silts (on and off-shore). This is one of the areas that there is some uncertainty in mainstream climate science understandings. The precise conditions necessary to trigger these reservoirs to release their carbon stores, is not known.

These release conditions are generally referred to as Tipping Points or trigger conditions, and roughly equate to your PoNR.

Q2. Have we reached the PoNR?
Difficult to say, due to the fact that emissions are still increasing and accelerating in increase. Additionally, even short-term equilibration between CO2 (and the various other GHGs (Green House Gases) and other AGW factors) and realized surface temperature takes several decades. So, with the realization that most of the effects we are seeing today are the result of emissions which occurred decades ago, and we still have several decades worth of greatly increased CO2-forced warming already “in the pipeline,” combined with uncertainties in necessary trigger values, it is impossible to say whether or not we have actually reached or surpassed tipping points with the emission effects in the pipeline. I suspect that many of the short-term carbon reservoirs have been triggered into substantive but gradual releases (High latitude soils (permafrost) and lakes, mid-latitude soils and shallow water carbon reservoirs, etc.). Whether or not this is sufficient to reach large scale tipping points, I don’t think anyone can say conclusively at this time.

Q3. What mechanism(s) breaks this feedback cycle so that temperatures and CO2 stop rising?
Humanity is currently emitting ~30GT of CO2 per year (roughly the equivalent of one hundred super-volcanoes (Krakatoa equivalent) erupting every year. The first thing to do when you realize that you are accelerating towards a cliff is to take your foot off the accelerator. Ideally, the first step is to get humanity to a net-zero fossil carbon emission state as quickly as possible. Secondly, you probably want to invest in helping nature to actively drawdown atmospheric carbon into the 300-330ppmv range as quickly as possible. Beyond this, we are looking at a minimum of several centuries of fluctuations that will take a lot of time, money, and dedicated effort to adapt/adjust to, and survive. This is only if we accomplish the first step in the very near future. If we continue at the present rate for more than a few decades without substantive action, things get much worse, much quicker, for much longer, and our choices and options much fewer.

Q4. Related to Q3, what mechanism(s) causes CO2 levels to drop below the PoNR where they cannot restart the cycle?
Perfect stabilization of the Earth’s climate is, at the least, a bit beyond our current level of understanding, our existent technological capacity, and our economic willingness to invest in. That said, there are several viable approaches to reduce future impacts and intensities, with relatively minor shifts in public policy, economic investment, and individual/societal behavioral adjustment. The more time that passes, the fewer choices and options we have and generally the less desirable the outcome.
 
are you certain about the acceleration in increase....seems to me it's curved off a tad.

http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/GCP/images/global_co2_emissions.jpg

It was increasing 2.7% per annum 2003-2012
dropping to 2.1-2.2 % in the last couple of years.

Several issues:

1) Global fossil fuel combustion and cement CO2 emissions while in overwhelming majority they are not the totality of human fossil carbon emissions (e.g. http://www.pnas.org/content/110/44/17768).

2) year-to-year such rates can experience variation due to issues like global economic fluctuations, variances in regional climate extremes (hot summers/cold-stormy winters over techno/econo-advanced population centers causing increasing use of fossil fuels for energy and transportation), or increases of human conflict.*

3) From your reference:

picture.php

BTW - What's with the bizarre labeling? re: "CO2 emissions (GtC/yr)" I understand where they were going, but unless there is a reason to bring everything into a consistent Carbon unit, why not just leave it in tonnes of CO2? I know, you didn't have any input on this graph, but I expect better of ORNL, though this appears lifted from the Global Carbon Project so I'll cut the national lab some slack as well.

*I'm not saying that it is more accurate to presume a lengthy trend calculation period such as is required in climate considerations (30 years and up), but two data points rarely makes for an accurate trend assessment. However, when looked at over even the very short term of five years (and increasingly so with longer periods), the slope of the trend seems to indicate an increasing increase (even throughout the Great Recession as long as you include more than just a very few data points).
 
With the US down 11% and Europe doing reasonably well, I think a corner has been turned even if psychologically.

China has no choice. Mileage stardards are starting to bite. There were 9 million more Americans yet they used less electricity.
Japan's closure of nukes was a setback but that is temporary - not embedded.

Solar is accelerating like crazy.

Coal is the key factor tho and there is some progress...
good overview
http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/ieo/coal.cfm

My assessment is that it understates China's ability to switch.....and China is the big lever.
America's and EU are on track for reduction.
 
are you certain about the acceleration in increase....seems to me it's curved off a tad.

http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/GCP/images/global_co2_emissions.jpg

It was increasing 2.7% per annum 2003-2012
dropping to 2.1-2.2 % in the last couple of years.

Let's put the blame where it belongs: the line rears up from 2003 on, and 60% of that increase is Chinese coal, along with part of the remaining 40% which is Chinese other-than-coal. That I call the Great Leap Forward, speaking of driving towards a cliff.

"Fortunately" during the period 2014-2030 Chinese emissions are expected to rise less that what they rose during 2003-2013, so by 2030 they will be emitting yearly as much as all the planet by 1970, and in the following six years more than all mankind before WWI, so the "catching up" will quickly turn from reason to excuse.
 
The excuse has been from the US pointing fingers at China.
I'm pretty confident China will get CO2 under control faster than anticipated - construction is slowing and coal exports from Australia are not looking too prosperous tho that is more price related than volume.

If China goes ahead with a hard cap by 2016 that would be a very good thing.
India may be more difficult but between thorium and solar and mass die off :D they might yet surprise us.

Fast enough tho?? dunno.
 
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Let's put the blame where it belongs: the line rears up from 2003 on, and 60% of that increase is Chinese coal, along with part of the remaining 40% which is Chinese other-than-coal. That I call the Great Leap Forward, speaking of driving towards a cliff.

"Fortunately" during the period 2014-2030 Chinese emissions are expected to rise less that what they rose during 2003-2013, so by 2030 they will be emitting yearly as much as all the planet by 1970, and in the following six years more than all mankind before WWI, so the "catching up" will quickly turn from reason to excuse.

How much of that is actually just our production that went to China, it seems more like doing our dirty work than real catchup
 
Trying to answer your points as independent items, but without meaning the chain they form is right...

Other things being equal, yes it does....

You have to be a bit careful with this...

In follow-up:...

Thank you for your responses. I will absorb and follow-up.

Many of my current and future questions derive from analyzing the chart at this URL (broken up since I don't have enough posts to embed URLs):

ncdc.noaa dot gov/
paleo/globalwarming/
temperature-change.html

I presume most here will accept the validity of this data?

Is there a similar chart somewhere that shows a history of ocean heat?
 
The excuse has been from the US pointing fingers at China.
I'm pretty confident China will get that under control faster.
If they go ahead with a hard cap by 2016 that would be a very good thing.
India may be more difficult but between thorium and solar and mass die off they might surprise us.

Fast enough tho?? dunno.

Chinese auto domestic sales aren't moving towards NCG, hybrids and electric much faster than USA's, what is not a great consolation, as they sell more cars -smaller and efficient, admittedly- and you can be certain that the old ones -not that many above 10 years- are not sent into car crusher so quickly.

A lukewarm approach guarantees at least 1 teraton of carbon dioxide emitted before 2040 which is just below all anthropogenic emissions since the industrial revolution until 2013. A forgiving approach will have us doubling accumulative emissions by 2036 or so, and concentrations 500-520 ppmv.
 
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ncdc.noaa dot gov/
paleo/globalwarming/
temperature-change.html

I presume most here will accept the validity of this data?

It's all right but in fact it says the opposite: temperature changes a lot -because of Milankovich cycles, among other causes-, and carbon dioxide follows "timidly". If you take that figure as a sole source for analysis you might conclude that current CO2 levels will drive us through the roof, which is not the case. Today we are driving the climate with our meant-to-be-kept-out-of-the-circuit CO2.

Is there a similar chart somewhere that shows a history of ocean heat?

No that I know. It would be very strange. Maybe a figure with deep-sea paleotemperatures is available somewhere.
 
Am I correct in the following points?...

P1. Regardless of the source of CO2 (natural or anthropogenic), increases in atmospheric CO2 drives increases in global temperature.
Correct
P2. As per the paleoclimate data, CO2 levels rise following increases in temperature.
Correct
Without considering any other factors, P1 and P2 should lead to a geometric progression (feedback cycle) of increasing temperatures and CO2 levels.
Incorrect.

While it can lead to this type of situation it doesn’t necessarily do so. In the simplest form where A = Forward Gain and B = Feedback factor the system will remain stable if A*B < 1. In this case, as with most natural systems, A is less than or equal to 1, so stability comes down to the Feedback Factor.

IOW if you release X amount of CO2 into the atmosphere does the resulting increase in temperature result in more than X or Less than X new CO2. If it’s less than X the system will eventually converge on a new stable temperature range.

This is the exact process that allows a very small wobble in the earth’s orbit to drive the earth’s climate into a whole new temperature range at the end of a glaciations. Without this positive feedback amplification the orbital wobble is far too small to shift the earth’s climate.

Q1. Regardless of the source of CO2, at what point do CO2 levels have to reach to engage this feedback cycle so that it is irrevocable (self-maintaining)? For lack of a better term, I'll call this the Point of No Return. (PoNR).

Per above the question is off base because we are not near an instability point where a real runaway event could occur. Even a real runaway like Venus experienced event would eventually run out of available Carbon and stabilize but if we use this as the type of event you refer too, it’s something that could not happen while there were still oceans because they help stabilize temperatures. If they were to evaporate the earth would be warm enough to break down carbonate rock and change the earth to something resembling Venus.

Q2. Have we reached the PoNR?
Few climate scientists think we are a Venus style PoNR, but there is a very distinct possibility of crossing a local boundary like we do when glaciers retreat. Should that occur the earth could look completely different for 100K years or longer.
Q3. What mechanism(s) breaks this feedback cycle so that temperatures and CO2 stop rising?

Per above, any time the new CO2 released per unit of warming is lower than the CO2 required to cause that much warming the system will converge all on it’s own. If this condition is exceeded the warming would continue until there was no more readily available Carbon and the condition could no longer be maintained.

Q4. Related to Q3, what mechanism(s) causes CO2 levels to drop below the PoNR where they cannot restart the cycle?
It’s not level of CO2 it’s rate of CO2/warming and rate of Warming/CO2
 
can't fool the critters...they know it's getting warmer...

Earlier snowmelt prompting earlier breeding of Arctic birds
Date:
June 25, 2014
Source:
Wildlife Conservation Society
Summary:
Biologists have found that migratory birds that breed in Arctic Alaska are initiating nests earlier in the spring, and that snowmelt occurring earlier in the season is a big reason why.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140625151235.htm

snip

It seems clear that the timing of the snow melt in Arctic Alaska is the most important mechanism driving the earlier and earlier breeding dates we observed in the Arctic," said Liebezeit. "The rates of advancement in earlier breeding are higher in Arctic birds than in other temperate bird species, and this accords with the fact that the Arctic climate is changing at twice the rate."

The birds advanced their nesting an average of 4-7 days over the nine years of the study. This pattern agrees with the general observation of 0.5 days per year

That's a startling change in only a decade...:boggled:
 
Taking Effective Action Against the Unstoppable

Carbon Cuts Now Won’t Stop Climate Change, but Could Limit Damage
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/25/b...ld-limit-damage.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0

Climate change is not an event in your children’s future. It is bearing down upon you now. And there is nothing you — or anyone else — can do to prevent the hit.

Over the next quarter-century, heat-related death rates will probably double in the southeastern states. Crop losses that used to happen only once every 20 years because of cataclysmic weather will occur five times as often.

This is our future even if every person on the planet abruptly stopped burning coal, gas, oil, wood or anything else containing carbon today and we hooked the world economy onto the wind and the sun tomorrow. The change is baked in, caused by CO2 spewed into the air long ago.

This stark future is rendered vividly in a comprehensive report released on Tuesday by the Risky Business Project, a coalition of political and business luminaries representing widely different political views — including the former Treasury secretaries George P. Shultz, Robert E. Rubin and Henry M. Paulson Jr. — that is intended to raise awareness about the impending perils of a changing climate.

The report is aimed squarely at corporate America, offering the kind of risk modeling a financial firm might make to assess the probable impact of a changing climate on an investment portfolio whose “assets” included farming, housing, labor productivity and crime.

Together with the latest assessment from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, reported in April, last month’s National Climate Assessment and the new rules proposed by the Obama administration to combat carbon pollution from power plants, it contributes to a new picture of climate change. And it is not pretty, puncturing the hopes held by some of the most uncompromising environmentalists and the most compromising politicians that humanity can still prevent climactic upheaval if we only start replacing fossil fuels today...
 
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