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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Actually, it does nothing of the sort. What it does establish, to any objective reading of the actual study and its conclusions, is that much of the advances in crop yields over that last century are probably more due to atmospheric CO2 increases and not technological developments.
Presumably you mean "and less to technological developments"? Improved strains and methods along with more technology has been the primary contributor. If it was solely down to CO2 enrichment somebody would have twigged long ago.
 
Presumably you mean "and less to technological developments"? Improved strains and methods along with more technology has been the primary contributor. If it was solely down to CO2 enrichment somebody would have twigged long ago.

If that makes you like it more, I can live with the adjustments; I felt like the "much of the advances" and "are probably more due" were sufficient qualifiers, but it would not bother me to change "not" to "less."

:)

CO2 enhancement of plant growth has been done for a long time successfully. But, this is research based on econometric models not focused on agronomic researches or field science observations.
 
And there is also the fact that they discuss it on the NCDC site, and even have a software tool to compare the versions, which shows exactly how much they cooled the past, or warmed the present.
Also not a secret to climate scientists (and people who try to learn about climate science).
Definitely a deep dark secret to the blogger and Daily Telegraph "reporter" though.
 
Yeah, but accuracy has a well-known liberal bias. You need to account for that. :cool:


Then it should be a relatively simple process to post the original data and the methodology used to "improve" it ... and the scientific basis for that process. ;)
 
Then it should be a relatively simple process to post the original data and the methodology used to "improve" it ... and the scientific basis for that process. ;)

LOL, Quite right, actually its more a luck of the draw thing that liberal perspectives happen to be more currently in line with scientific realities (for some of the public policy benefits they perceive in conjunction with those realities), with respect to AGW. Which is quite different than saying that the universe bends toward ideology. All you have to do is look at the "new-age,"anti-vaccers, anti-GMO, and rabid anti-nuke elements of the generally liberal politi-sphere (at least in the U.S.) to see that it isn't just a sheer, broad-based respect and acknowledgement of science that guides liberal perspectives toward the mainstream scientific understandings and evidences with regards to AGW. :)
 
The latest claim from climate change deniers is that the data is being altered to hide the truth.

The scandal of fiddled global warming data


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/en...e-scandal-of-fiddled-global-warming-data.html

The detailed explanation for the adjustments to historical data is documented in this paper:

THE U.S. HISTORICAL CLIMATOLOGY NETWORK MONTHLY TEMPERATURE DATA, VERSION 2

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ushcn/v2/monthly/menne-etal2009.pdf

What Goddard didn't mention is the reason for the adjustments. These turn out to be things like stations that changed the times when they measured temperature data.

The Conspiracy Theory that is so crazy even Watts disowns it.
 
Then it should be a relatively simple process to post the original data and the methodology used to "improve" it ... and the scientific basis for that process. ;)
Yeah, but that would be scientific and rational. Just trust them, they are from the government, and they are here to help you. And just because they have admitted three times now the data wasn't "right", now it is. Trust them.
 
Yeah, but that would be scientific and rational. Just trust them, they are from the government, and they are here to help you. And just because they have admitted three times now the data wasn't "right", now it is. Trust them.

are you claiming the details are kept secret?

why don't you make a scientific post like you claimed you always do yet nobody ever saw one from you?

you could post the scientific publications that show why and how they adjusted the data. then you could point out what in those papers you think is wrong and does not justify the adjusting that have been made?
 
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Then it should be a relatively simple process to post the original data and the methodology used to "improve" it ... and the scientific basis for that process. ;)

The GISS code and data is all online.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

Hadley CRUTEM4

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/

knock yourself out.

The UAH code, on the other hand, that the well known 'skeptic' Christy manages, you can't see that.

The BEST 'skeptics' rebuttal of the original temperature record, that just demonstrated they were already correct.

http://berkeleyearth.org/data
 
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The GISS code and data is all online.

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/modelE/

Hadley CRUTEM4

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/

knock yourself out.

The UAH code, on the other hand, that the well known 'skeptic' Christy manages, you can't see that.

The BEST 'skeptics' rebuttal of the original temperature record, that just demonstrated they were already correct.

http://berkeleyearth.org/data

well actually afaik Christy is also publishing his corrections and methods

for example:

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0426(2003)20<613:EEOVOM>2.0.CO;2
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0442-11.8.2016
 
I brought that up here and my posts vanished. Shucks, I can even prove it is happening, but what's the point? There is always moving of the goal posts, rationalizations or worse. Nobody here who believes in warming is the least bit skeptical of anything that makes it seem like there is more warming.

That's what you think the problem is? Not that with one fell swoop the NCDC just changed the entire climate history of the US?

And every bit of it was to make the present seem warmer, and the past colder?

That doesn't make you skeptical at all?

The claim is "they measured things different back then", but it seems they just figured this out in 2014. So now we are supposed to believe the records are correct. But last year, the records were all wrong.

In fact, according to this logic, up until a few months ago, the entire climate history the NCDC showed the world was actually wrong.

But now it's OK.

Also, they already changed it years ago, supposedly for the same reason. This is the second time they changed the records.

But it certainly shows that the warming is due to humans.

Your post didn't just disappear. It was moved to the conspiracy forum where it belongs. Just as a reminder, this is what you said.

Then there is the skeptical look at the data itself. Any records that show no warming, or even worse, cooling, are "adjusted" to be in line with the story that it's all warming, all the time.
So there you are claiming that the data is "adjusted" to show warming where there is none. That cannot be possible without a cover up by virtually the whole scientific community. No wonder your post was moved. You should now be arguing this point in the appropriate forum, not the science forum.
 
CO2 - Temperature feedback loop questions

Am I correct in the following points?...

P1. Regardless of the source of CO2 (natural or anthropogenic), increases in atmospheric CO2 drives increases in global temperature.

P2. As per the paleoclimate data, CO2 levels rise following increases in temperature.

Without considering any other factors, P1 and P2 should lead to a geometric progression (feedback cycle) of increasing temperatures and CO2 levels.

If the above points are correct, some questions....

Q1. Regardless of the source of CO2, at what point do CO2 levels have to reach to engage this feedback cycle so that it is irrevocable (self-maintaining)? For lack of a better term, I'll call this the Point of No Return. (PoNR).

Q2. Have we reached the PoNR?

Q3. What mechanism(s) breaks this feedback cycle so that temperatures and CO2 stop rising?

Q4. Related to Q3, what mechanism(s) causes CO2 levels to drop below the PoNR where they cannot restart the cycle?
 
Since you will not, or can not, show me a valid unadulterated model from 20+ years ago that accurately predicts Global Warming, you are admitting defeat.

False dichotomy, fallacy of construction, and ultimately a strawman.

How about actually discussing things? Like the data which seems to be showing an increase in global temperatures?
 
Am I correct in the following points?...

In toto, and as stated, you are not correct.

If you would like to discuss the errors and misunderstandings in each of your points, we can explore them in more detail. Once we have the points clarified then you can revise your questions to reflect more accurate understandings and we can explore those questions.
 
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Am I correct in the following points?...

P1. Regardless of the source of CO2 (natural or anthropogenic), increases in atmospheric CO2 drives increases in global temperature.

P2. As per the paleoclimate data, CO2 levels rise following increases in temperature.

Without considering any other factors, P1 and P2 should lead to a geometric progression (feedback cycle) of increasing temperatures and CO2 levels.

If the above points are correct, some questions....

Q1. Regardless of the source of CO2, at what point do CO2 levels have to reach to engage this feedback cycle so that it is irrevocable (self-maintaining)? For lack of a better term, I'll call this the Point of No Return. (PoNR).

Q2. Have we reached the PoNR?

Q3. What mechanism(s) breaks this feedback cycle so that temperatures and CO2 stop rising?

Q4. Related to Q3, what mechanism(s) causes CO2 levels to drop below the PoNR where they cannot restart the cycle?

Trying to answer your points as independent items, but without meaning the chain they form is right:

P1 - Yes, CO2 is a greenhouse gas, strong, but its effect is partially saturated, so you need a lot of it to raise global temperatures and the effect is not experienced immediately because of delays in the global system, like the time needed to adjust ocean heat content. Current accumulated anthropogenic emissions, and those in the foreseeable future, do amount to "a lot of it".

P2 - Not always, but it's very common to be that way, but not necessarily in the same proportion.

So Ps are good enough to allow the following:

Q1 - There's not necessarily a PoNR. The process always have depended on carbon reservoirs that may be ready to "burst" in case of sudden warming, like peat, permafrost and the ocean becoming a source if heated enough. Some may tempt you with sudden destabilization of methane clathrates, but that is very unlikely to become by itself the cause of an escalation of global temperatures though it remains to be an important co-factor.

Q2 - Certainly not. Such catastrophic changes only can come from huge sources of carbon and, unless there's some especial super volcano about to erupt, only humans burning coal during 100 years to generate five times the electricity we use today could cause such a thing.

There are positive feedbacks though. The permafrost contains more than a double of the carbon the atmosphere contains nowadays. But most of it is very deep and not ready to emerge in a couple of decades.

Q3 - Eruptions end, peat consumes, permafrost evolves into taiga or temperate forests, ocean inorganic carbon content equilibrates with the atmosphere's over it (of course, oversimplified)

Q4 - A lot, all of them slow: soil weathering currently absorbs something like 1 GT of carbon dioxide a year. Carbon in sea water through organic and inorganic processes continue to fall to the bottom or accumulate (would that amount to another 2 GT a year?). This process is jeopardized by the very same high levels of carbon dioxide, but it never stops.

So, for instance, if all the carbon inside the permafrost reached the atmosphere during a 50 years span -something near to impossible- some 3000 years of soil weathering should take care of it.

This is a rough summary just to give some answer to your questions. If you should ask, the largest carbon reservoir of them all is the sea water.
 
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