Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Anode]

If so, how can that possibly work when it's the same crime and within the context of the evidence, much of which applies to him just as with Knox (the lack of alibi, strange behaviour at the crime scene, genetic and footprint traces left at crime scene, evidence for multiple attackers and staging and so on)? It seems to me, his appeal, the very foundation of it, is a complete mess.

This guy Michael site administrator with 15000 posts reckons this gets the verdict across the line.

Only one word, genetic, seems to be even relevant
And which reference to genetic for Sollecito?
The bra clasp?

It seems they continue to confuse the "crime scene" (the bedroom) and "the cottage". There were plenty of footprints and DNA of Amanda at the cottage where she lived and in the bathroom that she shared. Nothing in the actual crime scene.

 

[Desert Fox]

Horrors! Raffaele has a different position than Amanda!!!!! And it turns out Bongiorno agrees 100% with Amanda's own observation about why they've dragged Raffaele into this, "He's collateral damage."

I don't really disagree with this statement

 

[Desert Fox]

It seems they continue to confuse the "crime scene" (the bedroom) and "the cottage". There were plenty of footprints and DNA of Amanda at the cottage where she lived and in the bathroom that she shared. Nothing in the actual crime scene.

I tend to sometimes go into my roommates rooms and they go in mine.
We talk sometimes. As such, why would even DNA evidence and even footprints (as long as not in blood) even be evidence of guilt if in the room.
Even bloody footprints might be explainable if she had gone to check on her friend in some cases.

 

[acbytesla]

The media in Italy is not reporting the news, they are making mischief.

Barbie Nadeau is mischief maker #1, as the more mischief she makes, the more money flows to her. She's the the most successful at monetizing the tragedy.

Chief in this is the way The Beast, or the local Perugian outlet is claiming that Raffaele is distancing himself from Amanda. This has been the mischief they were praying would happen in 2008, and Raffaele said two things and has not wavered since: "She was with me that night," and, "What has any of this got to do with me?"

Both great observations, and hardly what they'd hoped when they put him in solitary for 6 months.

To put to rest the mischief making of the media, this is the preface to Raffaele's appeals document:

​

Horrors! Raffaele has a different position than Amanda!!!!! And it turns out Bongiorno agrees 100% with Amanda's own observation about why they've dragged Raffaele into this, "He's collateral damage."

I read this great article yesterday about why the public hates the media yesterday. While it doesn't begin to touch the depth and breadth or why we hate the media it's a good start. Here is the link. Barbie epitomizes many of todays reporters call Barbie and say Bob Woodward or Walter Cronkiete reporters in the same line shows just how far the profession has plummeted. I don't even think Barbie believes what she writes, but she knows it puts dinner on the table so she does it any way.

 

[acbytesla]

I tend to sometimes go into my roommates rooms and they go in mine.
We talk sometimes. As such, why would even DNA evidence and even footprints (as long as not in blood) even be evidence of guilt if in the room.
Even bloody footprints might be explainable if she had gone to check on her friend in some cases.

The PIP makes a big deal over the fact they didn't find a fingerprint or DNA that belonged to Amanda in that bedroom. And it is. But your point is the truth DF. I've posted countless times that it wouldn't be incriminating if Amanda's DNA and fingerprints were found all over Meredith's bedroom since she was Meredith's roommate and just as you said, we have no idea how many times Amanda had been in Meredith's bedroom.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

The media in Italy is not reporting the news, they are making mischief.

Barbie Nadeau is mischief maker #1, as the more mischief she makes, the more money flows to her. She's the the most successful at monetizing the tragedy.

Chief in this is the way The Beast, or the local Perugian outlet is claiming that Raffaele is distancing himself from Amanda. This has been the mischief they were praying would happen in 2008, and Raffaele said two things and has not wavered since: "She was with me that night," and, "What has any of this got to do with me?"

Both great observations, and hardly what they'd hoped when they put him in solitary for 6 months.

To put to rest the mischief making of the media, this is the preface to Raffaele's appeals document:

​

Horrors! Raffaele has a different position than Amanda!!!!! And it turns out Bongiorno agrees 100% with Amanda's own observation about why they've dragged Raffaele into this, "He's collateral damage."

Raffaele certainly does have a different position and location to Amanda, if as some say the 2nd level verdict is confirmed then it is straight to jail for Raffaele, whilst Amanda……
By the way, any traction in either appeals relating to Y-haplotypes, I recall you mentioned it a couple of times.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

more of the same from Ms. Nadeau

Barbie's latest article at the Daily Beast talks about a transcript of the interrogation, an obvious error. She also quotes a portion of the first memoriale: “I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrick.” This is more of the same intellectual dishonesty that has characterized Ms. Nadeau's misleading reporting on the case. What Ms. Knox actually wrote was, “And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele’s house” From then on Ms. Knox made a second voluntary statement on 7 November and a letter to her lawyers around 9 November in which she was increasing clear that she was not at the flat. Either Ms. Knox is extraordinarily good at faking the aftermath of making a coerced false statement, or she really did make a coerced false statement on 5-6 November. The latter is far more probable.

Ms. Nadeau's attempts to muddy the water with respect to this sequence of events cannot be ascribed to lack of familiarity with the case. And the notion that an unidentified woman, who does not even look like Ms. Knox, is in any way shape or form "suspicious" is no better than feckless. Bongiorno has made the point since 2008 that Amanda's statements do not logically put Raffaele at the women's flat. There is nothing new in that regard, despite what is obviously Ms. Nadeau's hope, as indicated in this article: that Amanda and Raffaele will accuse each other. Ms. Nadeau does not even bother to entertain the thought that Knox and Sollecito walked in the station that night as suspects in fact, if not in name, despite ample evidence of this. Ms. Nadeau's article is the epitome of shoddy, biased journalism from start to finish.

EDT
There is a great deal about the biological evidence in Raffaele's appeal, but you wouldn't know it from Nadeau's myopic summary.

 

[Bill Williams]

Raffaele certainly does have a different position and location to Amanda, if as some say the 2nd level verdict is confirmed then it is straight to jail for Raffaele, whilst Amanda……
By the way, any traction in either appeals relating to Y-haplotypes, I recall you mentioned it a couple of times.

AFAIK Bongiorno in the appeal document makes reference to it only without much real commentary. Who knows, perhaps Bongiorno hopes that the ISC reads this for itself (in Nencini's report) for what it is....

​

The previous page to this one in Nencini's motivations makes it clear that he truly believes that women might have Y-haplotypes. And in this case, he's talking about TWO such samples on the bra-clasp.

One can only speculate about why Bongiorno doesn't make the big deal out of it that perhaps it should. One reason might be she's gambling it's self-evident to intelligent people.... but the defence lawyers have also been warned by judges not to make what amounts to allegations of either incompetence or outright criminality..... so your guess is as good as mine. What do you think? (Why am I asking you - you never venture an opinion anyway!)

Bongiorno does spend time in the appeals, though, on a sixth sample on the bra-clasp that Stefanoni herself allegedly testified to, which since has not been made mention even by Conti & Vecchiotti in 2011.

To review:

1) Massei's report acknowledges extra genetic samples on the bra-clasp, but says they cannot be a result of contamination because Stefanoni assured his court there's never been a case of contamination in her lab. He believed her and denied the request for an independent review.

2) Hellmann's court granted the request and appointed Conti-Vecchiotti. C&V said that there were four (at least four?) Y-samples on that clasp other than Meredith's, and implied that even though one of the samples cannot be ruled out as Raffaele's, the mere existence of the extra samples deems the clasp useless as evidence.

3) Cassazione annulled Hellmann's decision, and it was unclear, really, if that included annulling C&V's findings, other than to say that Cassazione said that a route of contamination must be demonstrated, rather than simply assumed because of extra samples.

4) Paradoxically, Nencini himself seems to accept parts of Conti & Vecchiotti's report, saying it is factual that four samples, all Y-genetic material, are found on the clasp other than Meredith's DNA.

4a) Nencini confirms that the first sample is simply a group from which Raffaele cannot be ruled out.

4b) Nencini speculates, without any testing whatsoever, that the second sample must be Meredith's boyfriend's. Apparently, a judge speculating about something makes it factual!!!!

4c) the other two Y-material samples is said by Nencini to come from Meredith's "amica", which is an innocent transfer in his mind - women touch each other's bra-clasp's apparently. But it never seems to occur to Nencini the absolute absurdity of what he writes.​

5) Bongiorno simply acknowledges this in the appeal's document, and brings in a 5th non-Meredith sample, again a Y-sample that Stefanoni herself talked about in 2009. She's not letting go of contamination, it seems. Maybe she's hoping the penny will drop for ISC that now they are up to THREE female Y-samples!!!!​

Of course, as usual, you will not express a point of view.

 

[Desert Fox]

The PIP makes a big deal over the fact they didn't find a fingerprint or DNA that belonged to Amanda in that bedroom. And it is. But your point is the truth DF. I've posted countless times that it wouldn't be incriminating if Amanda's DNA and fingerprints were found all over Meredith's bedroom since she was Meredith's roommate and just as you said, we have no idea how many times Amanda had been in Meredith's bedroom.

In another world, they might have been fingerprinting and getting the DNA of Amanda so that they could figure out what is her trace evidence so as to exclude it.

 

[xinonix]

I have thought of a motive for AK + RS to kill MK.
A deal was made with Rudy where if he rats out the other 2 suspects he gets a shorter sentence.
To make this work, they needed 2 suspects for Rudy to roll over on. I suppose the police would have preferred to find people who were guilty, but Amanda + Raffael were all they had, so they winged it.

 

[RandyN]

Raffaele certainly does have a different position and location to Amanda, if as some say the 2nd level verdict is confirmed then it is straight to jail for Raffaele, whilst Amanda……
By the way, any traction in either appeals relating to Y-haplotypes, I recall you mentioned it a couple of times.[/QUOTE]

Bill mentioned female y haplotypes? GTH out of here. Really? Is he still talking about that Massei fellow endlessly?

Look Bill...I know Coulsdon wont express an opinion...but I will. And it is probably unfair of me since I have not seen the appeal documents...are there links somewhere? Anyway I wont that small detail impede me.

If Borgiorno failed to point out the absurdity of the Nencini conclusion related to "female y haplotype" than she remains a foolish defender who is far out of her depth...still! She is going to get her client put in prison.

How can one possibly count on a few ISC judges to care about the science enough to pick up on that? Perhaps she is counting on making that point when she gets in front of them....I hope, because if she does not then who will?

Not allowed to criticize or condemn? That is nonsense. The fact that no one has come out strongly enough and to point out the volumes of absurd, corrupt, curiously odd happenings in this case is what has allowed it maintain traction when in fact it should have been tossed years ago.

Simply reviewing facts here in fact gives the false impression that Italy actually has some sort of legitimate case so it may go either way. That is ridiculous...

They have bad police work led by Mignini and a bad prosecution lead by Mignini and bad calls by judges who for some reason are afraid of Mignini??? What else can it be? His enduring friendships with the judges? I mean these people are making damn fools of themselves and when someone important enough actually opens the pages of this crazy case it will have to go down as the worst of all time.

I'm thinking the pope has his eye on excommunicating the police and judges of Italy next...he got their brothers today...so they must be next...they are certainly at least as evil...maybe more so because they think they are doing good. They clearly are not.

Dumb defense lawyers are a part of the problem here. Not one is experienced in defending against fake murder charges. The Italians hired and advised Knox family to hire politically connected lawyers...foolish mistake in a country that has changed PM more often than Toto changed socks. They have a crap political system...well we all do, but they don't even have the law to fall back on so....gulp.

Speaking of backward countries....I was wondering....can people in England legally buy Knox's book yet? I find that amazing and maybe a bigger story than one girl getting murdered overseas.

How will the Italians extract themselves from this? They have to know how foolish they are acting and they have to understand that it will never pass muster in the ECOHR. So what will they do?

Female y-haplotype....LOL tell us about that again Bill....I love that story...it sort of digests this whole case down to its atomic level. Mignini, Nencini...both end in ni...co-incidence? I wish that Carluci lady was still alive...so we could ask the dead priest.

 

[Desert Fox]

I have thought of a motive for AK + RS to kill MK.
A deal was made with Rudy where if he rats out the other 2 suspects he gets a shorter sentence.
To make this work, they needed 2 suspects for Rudy to roll over on. I suppose the police would have preferred to find people who were guilty, but Amanda + Raffael were all they had, so they winged it.

As far as what I have read, most rapes are by a single assailant.
Those that do involve multiple assailants are much more rare.
Those with a woman as one of those responsible for rape is even more rare

The adage "When you hear hoof-beats, think of horses not zebras" fits well.

 

[RandyN]

Comodi claims that Meredith most likely never walked in the vicinity of Lana's garden. How can Comodi know r assume that? Lana's garden is not far from the cottage and if I understand it correctly Lana's garden is just outside Perugia's ancient city wall also and not far from another gate through the wall. Meredith's cottage is also just outside the city wall. How can Comodi infer that Meredith never went for a walk in that direction. Does Comodi believe that Meredith was so frequently sleeping off druken nights that during her six or so weeks living at the cottage Meredith never went for a 10 or 15 minute walk along the outer edge of Perugia's ancient city wall?

Perhaps there is a Brazilian wax parlor over Lanas way....should maybe check with Barbie Nutsodu

 

[RandyN]

Is there any evidence of that? Any at all? Would his petty burglery career keep him supplied at that level? Between October 20 and October 27 Rudy is sighted several times. Are there any reports of Rudy appearing to be drugged up in that period?

He appears drugged up to me in the YouTube video. I seem to recall one of his friends mentioning coke...I don't have a cite though.

 

[RandyN]

We have discussed the Aldrovandi case before on several occasions. I do not believe that it happened inside the station. Federico's mother said that she was sued about ten times, according to Beppe Grillo's blog. She had the audacity to call the police who were involved "delinquents." I had forgotten or did not know that Maresca was involved. Why am I not surprised?

Frank did several stories on this and other guys killed while in police custody...was this the guy that "escaped from handcuffs and threw himself out a second story window to the street below while 10 officers watched"?

I'm sure this story is still on Perugia Shock...some pretty gruesome pictures IIRC.
Like you, I don't recall Maresca being involved but maybe Frank missed that point. Doubtful he would miss that though.

Isn't he representing the police against the terrible tragedy they endured at the hands of Miss Knox? Geesh...an ambulance chaser with a magical police badge...perfect.

 

[acbytesla]

As far as what I have read, most rapes are by a single assailant.
Those that do involve multiple assailants are much more rare.
Those with a woman as one of those responsible for rape is even more rare

The adage "When you hear hoof-beats, think of horses not zebras" fits well.

I bet the statistics for multiple rapists or multiple murderers are below 1 percent DF. Statistically speaking the case that Italians are pursuing virtually never happens. Just like the MOF case where they wrongfully pursued countless individuals as part of a Satanic Ritual when in fact it was almost 100 percent positively the result of a single killer. Italy's own version of the Son of Sam. Yet Mignini did the same thing there, imagined some kind of bizarre ritual and he went after lots of people .

They have a better imagination in Italy then they do a police force.

 

[Samson]

From pmf

I think real objections or quarrels need to be heard here. They're not going to be heard at the JLOL

Stilicho, many people like this forum because it is totally open, and they seem to love discussing detail.

 

[acbytesla]

Murder Statistics. About 10 percent of all killers are women. I have been searching for statistics involving multiple assailants and there seem to be virtually no literature on this as a phenomenon. So while we almost always see in the media when this type of thing happens, statistically speaking it is so rare that when it does happen it is in fact that rare event. I've searched for the rare male female conspiracy to commit murder which when it does happen, seems almost always the result of long term romantic relationship or for financial gain such as an inheritance.

 

[LondonJohn]

From pmf

I think real objections or quarrels need to be heard here. They're not going to be heard at the JLOL

Stilicho, many people like this forum because it is totally open, and they seem to love discussing detail.

My irony meter just went off the scale and broke

Perhaps "Stilicho" would care to actually debate areas of the case here, rather than doing drive-by posts and disappearing. And there's a very sound reason why there's less of a pro-guilt bias on this thread: it's because no pro-guilt arguments stand up to proper, sceptical scrutiny. All that supports a pro-guilt position is an appeal to authority. And once the ECHR (or, if they actually have any good sense, humility and objectivity, the Italian Supreme Court) rules, not even an appeal to authority will help any longer.

 

[LondonJohn]

Murder Statistics. About 10 percent of all killers are women. I have been searching for statistics involving multiple assailants and there seem to be virtually no literature on this as a phenomenon. So while we almost always see in the media when this type of thing happens, statistically speaking it is so rare that when it does happen it is in fact that rare event. I've searched for the rare male female conspiracy to commit murder which when it does happen, seems almost always the result of long term romantic relationship or for financial gain such as an inheritance.

Yes. Let's be absolutely clear here: when a woman teams up with a male partner to kill, it's pretty much certain to be the case that the two will have been in a complex, psychologically-intertwined relationship for months if not years. They will have had to build up huge trust in each other, and usually one partner (usually the male) will have carefully established psychological control (and dependence) over the other. They will have tested each other's boundaries repeatedly prior to embarking on murder.

But it's also perfectly fair to say that precedent of this sort is of little matter. Even though precedent suggests it's highly unlikely, it's still possible (in theory) that Knox and Sollecito trusted each other - and Guede - enough to embark on this murderous orgy. In my view, the comparative extreme rarity of this sort of crime should be of very little value in assessing Knox's and Sollecito's guilt.

Rather, pretty much the entire assessment of their guilt should be based upon the actual evidence: does an analysis of all the available evidence (and lack of evidence) prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they participated in the murder? And it's absolutely clear to me that this standard of proof is not met. And more than that, it's clear to me that there is in fact zero credible, reliable evidence that can only point to Knox's/Sollecito's participation (i.e. which also cannot be reasonably explained in the context of their innocence).