Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

First let me say. I have no idea about Rudy's financial resources only that he had very little money on him when he was caught at the nursery. Maybe he had a healthy bank account. I don't know. He did have wealthy adoptive parents and supposedly one of them arranged for him to have the apartment in Perugia. So I'd say there is a reasonable possibility that even if Rudy couldn't pay his own rent at the end of a month that someone else might pay it.

Yes you have no idea. If there is evidence that he had no money we should be able to see it.

I don't buy that Rudy was a fence. Every real indication is that Rudy wasn't exactly flush with cash. His phone issues are an indication of that. As for CT. Obviously his story would ring truer if he had reported it to the police. But I don't think that CT would necessarily report the crime later after seeing Rudy at the discos if he hadn't reported him earlier.

Didn't you see the post indicating that fences don't need to be flush with cash and cite! CT called the police and they came but he didn't file a report at the station. According to his story he identified a man as being the guy that invaded his flat, stole money and credit cards then threatened him with a knife but doesn't bother to call the police and tell them it's Rudi but comes out AFTER his picture is in the press. Sorry just isn't credible and wouldn't be believed by the PIPs if it was something that hurt the kids.

We can speculate until the cows come home where Rudy got his money. The anecdotal evidence is that Rudy was a thief. The coincidences are just two many.
1. Being caught in a nursery that was robbed only a couple of weeks earlier.

Someone robbed the place and had access and that's why she was changing the locks. One of his underworld buddies let him in. If he had robbed 2000 he wouldn't have been in CT's or needing cash for the rent etc.

2. Being caught with burglar's tools. (The little hammer)

I'd say it used more for cars but doesn't that mess with his well known MO

3. Being caught with items stolen from a previous burglary that took place less than two weeks earlier. (The law firm)

That's what fences have, stolen merch.

4. Being caught with an item that matches the description of a stolen item from his next door neighbor who's home was broken into only a couple of days earlier

There is one source for the neighbor. You stated that the story was all overrthe media but it wasn't.
.

5. Being identified by Cristian Tremantano as the person who he saw in his home a month earlier.

Not credible.

6. Looks to have broken into the cottage with the broken 2nd floor window and murdered Meredith Kercher.

petitio principii,

You can put your head in the sand forever on all of this Grinder, but the available evidence points to Rudy being a burglar...NOT a fence. It doesn't point to him being a drifter or that he couldn't pay his rent.

No it doesn't

Rudy has no visible means of support..so either Rudy's adoptive parents were helping him or he was engaged in illegal activities. Others have suggested that Rudy was a drug dealer, yet I haven't actually seen a shred of evidence to support this theory...not that he wasn't..just nothing to support it. Or that he was a fence, also nothing to support that theory. Or that he was a small time burglar. There may not be enough evidence to prove this conclusive but there sure is a damn good trail of bread crumbs for this theory.

He had a number of jobs. We don't knoiw how much his foster mom gave him. He could make as much or more money being a fence.

 

[Grinder]

Umm, do you understand why that is?
First, many fences will trade money for drugs.
Second, there is a large difference between having "large amounts of cash" and "having not a pence to your name."

Might want to read this
[Link]

Darrell Steffensmeier
Professor of Sociology and Criminology

 

[xinonix]

"there was a reported phone call with the Perugian police, and Guede was released after that call. (Pretty sure I saw a comment from the milan police officer saying something to the effect, 'these requests among police departments happen all the time'."

I have read that phone call was how Mignini killed Meredith.
Perhaps Rudy was not only an informant but a friend of the police.
Perhaps Someone who was very influential wanted Meredith dead.
Personally I don't n
believe that anybody would want Meredith killed, and I can't believe that Rudy would want to kill her because he was on the toilet when she came home so he wanted her to die so that she could not be a witness.
Rudy had committed burglary before and the cops thought it was no big deal.
While Rudy did kill Meredith, he must have had a reason that we don't know about.

 

[Desert Fox]

Darrell Steffensmeier
Professor of Sociology and Criminology

Err, you seem to be making an argument from authority without even knowing exactly what that authority wrote. The article is from his work (and others)

It clearly argues that a fence pays between 20% and 50% of the value of an item. How can you do that with no money.

Besides, Guede does not seem to have the real connections of a fence.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes you have no idea. If there is evidence that he had no money we should be able to see it.

Didn't you see the post indicating that fences don't need to be flush with cash and cite!

Really? Says who? I don't buy that Rudy was "fronted" items so he could sell them. That is your invention. Everyone wants their money including thieves. This fence meme is a figment of your imagination. As a fence he would need to be either a "wheeler dealer" and there is no indication of that or he had money. Also no indication of that.

You keep suggesting Rudy is a fence but you haven't offered a single thing that points to him being a fence. There Rudy is at the end of his trip and he has virtually NO MONEY....but he does have the stolen items. Looks like he is really good at stealing items and not so good at unloading them.

He had a number of jobs. We don't know how much his foster mom gave him. He could make as much or more money being a fence.

I think I read that he had two jobs..not a number but feel free to correct me. I read that he worked in restaurant in Milan ..that closed. And he worked for a landscaper in Perugia a job that he didn't show up for and was fired.

You're right, we don't know how much his foster mom gave him. But how is he selling these items Grinder? Where is his market? Show me lot of phone calls, show me a store front. Show me classified ads. Show me Ebay ads. Show me a Fed Ex DHL or UPS account. I don't think there is a chance in hell that Rudy was a fence. Did he sell his own stolen items...sure he did. But did he buy from other thieves to "sell" Extremely unlikely, he seems to have too much trouble unloading his own loot.

I'm done arguing this point with you Grinder. Go on believing that Rudy was a fence. Go on denying that he was a burglar. I'll ignore you and you can ignore me. It's a waste of both our time.

 

[Desert Fox]

I'm done arguing this point with you Grinder. Go on believing that Rudy was a fence. Go on denying that he was a burglar. I'll ignore you and you can ignore me. It's a waste of both our time.

If you hear hooves, think horses not zebras

 

[Grinder]

Really? Says who? I don't buy that Rudy was "fronted" items so he could sell them. That is your invention. Everyone wants their money including thieves. This fence meme is a figment of your imagination. As a fence he would need to be either a "wheeler dealer" and there is no indication of that or he had money. Also no indication of that.

You keep suggesting Rudy is a fence but you haven't offered a single thing that points to him being a fence. There Rudy is at the end of his trip and he has virtually NO MONEY....but he does have the stolen items. Looks like he is really good at stealing items and not so good at unloading them.

Fences come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. You say Rudi stole 2000 Euros when convenient to your argument but have him broke when that's convenient.

You say he has no money but offer nothing as a source for that knowledge.

You have no idea how much he had sold on this particular trip.

He was convicted of possession of stolen merchandise but not burgalry.

I think I read that he had two jobs..not a number but feel free to correct me. I read that he worked in restaurant in Milan ..that closed. And he worked for a landscaper in Perugia a job that he didn't show up for and was fired.

I think I read and then when proven wrong you just move on.

You're right, we don't know how much his foster mom gave him. But how is he selling these items Grinder? Where is his market? Show me lot of phone calls, show me a store front. Show me classified ads. Show me Ebay ads. Show me a Fed Ex DHL or UPS account. I don't think there is a chance in hell that Rudy was a fence. Did he sell his own stolen items...sure he did. But did he buy from other thieves to "sell" Extremely unlikely, he seems to have too much trouble unloading his own loot.

I'm done arguing this point with you Grinder. Go on believing that Rudy was a fence. Go on denying that he was a burglar. I'll ignore you and you can ignore me. It's a waste of both our time.

If you could read you would know that I don't deny that he could be a burglar or a burglar and a fence or perhaps just a fence. My point is that the meme of Rudi being on a crime wave of burglaries is not backed by solid information but rather speculation and one off sources.

The way this should go is that people should find the information that Rudi was broke and owed rent or stop saying it is the case for sure.

You emailed Nina and promoted that they were looking for the police report. You stated that many stories had been written about it but couldn't produce one other source that didn't come from Nina.

You refuse to acknowledge that if CT were a witness against the kids with the same type of story you wouldn't buy it.

So we know three things, he was in the nursery without permission having put a knife and petty change in his pack (no signs of break in), he was in possession of stolen things including those stolen from the lawyers and he went to those lawyers and told them he had bought the stuff in Milan.

 

[Grinder]

If you hear hooves, think horses not zebras

depends where you are.

 

[Kaosium]

No evidence of a break in. No significant loot. Prato says there was no signs of a break in. She was with a locksmith do you think he was there to lock a window

He got in somehow and was there illegally thus whether there was 'evidence of a break in' by other standards (as in something being broken) is of no relevance to me. It's a damned lame rebuttal by Massei and his filth factory fanclub. Obviously there was a way he could get in without leaving anything they noticed, that he didn't have to use the window-breaking tool he had with him might mean he found an unlocked window or something like that.

He had a large number of computers according to the Spanish kids. He was convicted of possession.

Define 'large amount' and explain why you think that makes him a 'fence' and not someone who stole computers but was having trouble fencing them.

The lawyers office had a alarm that the thief was able to get around.

So what? I know people who couldn't do basic algebra but who can troubleshoot and repair a broken car. They also know how to operate their cellphones and computers.

Did he have his ID? All I've ever seen reported is what he had that was stolen property.

You also know some of the things he had that weren't stolen, of what relevance would his ID be anyway?

So? I already said that.

Good, so you have it straight now.

She was in charge of the homicide unit.

Yep.

please provide a source other than King for him being the wealthiest man in town

Why? What would it matter (hypothetically) if he was the second wealthiest? Or if he actually lived in a suburb of Perugia thus 'technically' couldn't have been the wealthiest in town? He was a wealthy and influential person in the area and a cursory search of his name and usage of google translate will establish that for you, I won't bother because it's a non-sequitur.

This is just pure conjecture.

But a better explanation than some have advanced for the kid gloves treatment he received from Perugian police. It's also a lot better than the pure fantasy contradicted by his circumstances and all the known evidence that he was a 'fence' of some sort.

Choosing which one is the convenience

Sometimes contradictory things are true at different times or from different perspectives, that's not convenience it's reality.

I'm talking about how he was treated at home by those police not in Perugia. The cover-up protection wasn't for murder.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

 

[Kaosium]

Darrell Steffensmeier
Professor of Sociology and Criminology

Your usage of that passage is a strawman. If you have 'large amounts of ready cash' getting into fencing would be a sign of idiocy, there's better things you can do with that money.

However you do need to have some cash on hand on a regular basis, otherwise no one will bring you those items to sell!

 

[acbytesla]

Err, you seem to be making an argument from authority without even knowing exactly what that authority wrote. The article is from his work (and others)

It clearly argues that a fence pays between 20% and 50% of the value of an item. How can you do that with no money.

This makes all the sense in the world.

 

[carbonjam72]

on the fence...

Really? Says who? I don't buy that Rudy was "fronted" items so he could sell them. That is your invention. Everyone wants their money including thieves. This fence meme is a figment of your imagination. As a fence he would need to be either a "wheeler dealer" and there is no indication of that or he had money. Also no indication of that.

You keep suggesting Rudy is a fence but you haven't offered a single thing that points to him being a fence. There Rudy is at the end of his trip and he has virtually NO MONEY....but he does have the stolen items. Looks like he is really good at stealing items and not so good at unloading them.

I think I read that he had two jobs..not a number but feel free to correct me. I read that he worked in restaurant in Milan ..that closed. And he worked for a landscaper in Perugia a job that he didn't show up for and was fired.

You're right, we don't know how much his foster mom gave him. But how is he selling these items Grinder? Where is his market? Show me lot of phone calls, show me a store front. Show me classified ads. Show me Ebay ads. Show me a Fed Ex DHL or UPS account. I don't think there is a chance in hell that Rudy was a fence. Did he sell his own stolen items...sure he did. But did he buy from other thieves to "sell" Extremely unlikely, he seems to have too much trouble unloading his own loot.

I'm done arguing this point with you Grinder. Go on believing that Rudy was a fence. Go on denying that he was a burglar. I'll ignore you and you can ignore me. It's a waste of both our time.

This would explain why he had a few computers in his apartment as per the spanish girls. He steals stuff in his burglaries, but then isn't effective in selling the loot.

The other options are he bought them, or others gave them to him. Which seems most likely? Not gifts, not a fence. Simple lazy burglar.

 

[acbytesla]

Fences come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. You say Rudi stole 2000 Euros when convenient to your argument but have him broke when that's convenient.

No they don't. Think of a pawn broker, an art or antique dealer. Not some twenty year old snot nosed kid who doesn't have a job, doesn't have a pot to piss in and has no visible outlet to sell his products.

You have no idea how much he had sold on this particular trip.

You're right I don't. But I do know that he wasn't holding a bunch cash when he was arrested. So that means he sold everything and spent it or that he didn't sell anything and he was still holding the stolen items.

If you could read you would know that I don't deny that he could be a burglar or a burglar and a fence or perhaps just a fence. My point is that the meme of Rudi being on a crime wave of burglaries is not backed by solid information but rather speculation and one off sources.

Nonsense. I'm not going to ignore the fact that he is inside the nursery holding stolen items from at least one other burglary and possibly two. I'm not going to just absolutely dismiss CT.

You refuse to acknowledge that if CT were a witness against the kids with the same type of story you wouldn't buy it.

I have in fact said I wouldn't. But that has never been my contention. The question which is before the court is whether the break in at the cottage was "staged" or was it real? The evidence that Rudy was a burglar may be anecdotal and marginal it is still a hundred times more proof than the burglary was staged.

So we know three things, he was in the nursery without permission having put a knife and petty change in his pack (no signs of break in), he was in possession of stolen things including those stolen from the lawyers and he went to those lawyers and told them he had bought the stuff in Milan.

And the nursery he just happened to be in was burglarized a couple of weeks before he is accused by both CT and Ms. Diaz of being burglars of their homes also very recently.

 

[acbytesla]

This would explain why he had a few computers in his apartment as per the spanish girls. He steals stuff in his burglaries, but then isn't effective in selling the loot.

The other options are he bought them, or others gave them to him. Which seems most likely? Not gifts, not a fence. Simple lazy burglar.

Selling is work.

 

[carbonjam72]

Napoleone's Job description & History

Except that he was caught stealing from there later, that is indeed something you'd have to take into account. As for there being no signs of a 'break-in' that's just semantics: (courtesy of Massei incidentally) whether he went through an unlocked window/door or broke something when entering, he was there illegally.

In contrast there's absolutely nothing indicating Rudy was a fence and his circumstances suggest it was highly unlikely. He didn't have cash on hand nor is there any reason to believe he could regularly profit from it.



Sure we do, the same way we know he had their knife, money and the items from the lawyer office burglary: they searched him and his pack.



Nope, I even linked the information I was correcting you on. The Polizia Postale is part of the same organization as the Squadra Mobile and is entirely separate from the Carabinieri. As a result of the Postals getting there first the investigation was handled by the Polizia di Stato and not the Carabinieri.

Incidentally, Monica Napoleoni was not the head of the Squadra Mobile either, I've posted her correct title a hundred times on this board.
There's also a difference between Rudy's crimes in Milan and murder.

Do you happen to know what Napoleone's title was at the time of the break-in? (Head of Homicide?)

Also, had she been recently promoted, and from what position, if you happen to know? (Thanks)

 

[Kaosium]

Do you happen to know what Napoleone's title was at the time of the break-in? (Head of Homicide?)

Yes, the head of homicide for the Perugian Squadra Mobile (Flying Squad). That puts a number of (mostly) fat old men ahead of her, Profazio being one notable from this case.

Also, had she been recently promoted, and from what position, if you happen to know? (Thanks)

I do not know, though I may recall where information on that might be found. If you go to the first pages of the Conspiracy thread you'll see I got into a discussion with Alt+F4 and linked an article that included a (rather flattering) portrait of her from several years ago, during the first trial I believe. I think it might have been Nina Burleigh's Time article that included some information about the 'high flying women of the Flying Squad or somesuch, as at the time Nina hadn't quite figured out yet that the Perugian police had really screwed the pooch!

I dug the article up, it doesn't say when she was promoted or from what position.

 

[Grinder]

He got in somehow and was there illegally thus whether there was 'evidence of a break in' by other standards (as in something being broken) is of no relevance to me. It's a damned lame rebuttal by Massei and his filth factory fanclub. Obviously there was a way he could get in without leaving anything they noticed, that he didn't have to use the window-breaking tool he had with him might mean he found an unlocked window or something like that.

Occam's - he was directed there because the lock didn't work or the someone had a key.

You also know some of the things he had that weren't stolen, of what relevance would his ID be anyway?

Not on the list of things claimed he had - I'm saying they only listed things that weren't his on the accounts you are referring to

Why? What would it matter (hypothetically) if he was the second wealthiest? Or if he actually lived in a suburb of Perugia thus 'technically' couldn't have been the wealthiest in town? He was a wealthy and influential person in the area and a cursory search of his name and usage of google translate will establish that for you, I won't bother because it's a non-sequitur.

Just the hyperbole. I already said he was rich, just skeptical about the added juice of being Richard Corey.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

You confused Raf's dad's power aspect.

 

[Dan O.]

Do you believe that you accept CT's story if it hurt the kids? Why would he report the crime and when he discovered who the perp was he didn't bother to let the police know. Apparently there was so much crime that there was always a line to fill out reports. Of course, he could have just called them when he discovered Rudi at Domus (where Rudi went dancing a couple of weeks later seemingly without any trepidation) but alas he didn't.

Grinder, you keep repeating this point of dismissing CT's testimony on the basis of what you believe someone would or wouldn't do in that situation. You don't have all the details of what that situation was and you arer not him so there is no way to say what he would or would not have done.

I prefer to look for more objective measures to validate or invalidate testimony. One form of this is to evaluate if the claims made in the testimony are falsifiable. Are there claims made that if true would create a verifiable confirmation of the claim. One such claim might be CT's eviction of Rudy from the bar. What exactly does he say happened? Did he personally evict or ask Rudy to leave or is there a third party that was involved in that eviction Or even better, is there a written record. This supporting evidence doesn't have to be presented in court to support the testimony. Simply the knowledge of it's existence and the threat of it's ability to falsify the testimony being given is sufficient to add credibility to the person giving the testimony.

 

[Grinder]

Your usage of that passage is a strawman. If you have 'large amounts of ready cash' getting into fencing would be a sign of idiocy, there's better things you can do with that money.

However you do need to have some cash on hand on a regular basis, otherwise no one will bring you those items to sell!

And this porridge is just right. It wasn't a straw man it was a quote from an expert. Exactly how much money would he need to be a small time fence?

 

[Grinder]

This would explain why he had a few computers in his apartment as per the spanish girls. He steals stuff in his burglaries, but then isn't effective in selling the loot.

The other options are he bought them, or others gave them to him. Which seems most likely? Not gifts, not a fence. Simple lazy burglar.

Yes this is brilliant. He just kept stealing either worthless (per tesla) computers or ones he couldn't sell (per you)