• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
From Hellman:
"There has been much discussion on whether the call to 112 happened before or after the arrival of the Police, with it having been hypothesized by the Public Minister that the call to the Carabinieri at 112 had been made on seeing the arrival of the Police, just to validate the notion [tesi] of their innocence. Except that even the Corte di Assise of first level, on the basis of the testimony given by the on-duty Police personnel and of the times reproduced from the logs, arrived at the conclusion that these calls had been made before the arrival of the Police and unaware of their imminent arrival. And, for that matter, what makes irrelevant the problem of whether the call to the Carabinieri was before or after the arrival of the Police is the fact that Amanda Knox had already called Filomena Romanelli at 12:08 pm, certainly before the arrival of the Police, such that at that point, she had already informed [partecipato] another person [soggetto estraneo] (whether it was the Carabinieri or Filomena Romanelli in this context does not matter)that they (Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito) had entered into the house on Via Della Pergola, finding a situation that caused alarm."

This is what is truly bizarre about this. Hellmann gives the one, truly informed opinion on this tidbit of information, and it is his decision which is quashed!

Why is the ISC trying to protect Mignini, et al., and why did the send a moron like Nencini to repair the damage?
 
The problem that the ISC has to deal with, is the postal police happened to be in the neighborhood and the112 call resulted in the postal police arriving before the real police.
Because of this the postal police were the 1st cops to take DNA samples and fingerprints.
For the plan to protect Rudy to work, this was supposed to be done by certain local police, not the postals
 
The problem that the ISC has to deal with, is the postal police happened to be in the neighborhood and the112 call resulted in the postal police arriving before the real police.
Because of this the postal police were the 1st cops to take DNA samples and fingerprints.
For the plan to protect Rudy to work, this was supposed to be done by certain local police, not the postals

A 112 call resulted in the PP arriving first but not THE 112 call.

The PP did not take DNA samples or fingerprints. They closed off the cottage with the help of the Carabinieri and the ICSI were brought in for forensic discovery work.

Now, if I'm mistaken and the PP took samples please provide a credible source.
 
The problem that the ISC has to deal with, is the postal police happened to be in the neighborhood and the112 call resulted in the postal police arriving before the real police.
Because of this the postal police were the 1st cops to take DNA samples and fingerprints.
For the plan to protect Rudy to work, this was supposed to be done by certain local police, not the postals

You have this wrong. The postal police played no role, once they had cleared the building. Napoleoni became the lead investigator, not the postals, and Mignini had a role in directing the investigation as the local Public Minister. The Carabinieri (IIRC) are the 'other' service which could have been involved.
 
This is what is truly bizarre about this. Hellmann gives the one, truly informed opinion on this tidbit of information, and it is his decision which is quashed!

Why is the ISC trying to protect Mignini, et al., and why did the send a moron like Nencini to repair the damage?

It reminds me of this great quotation from "My Cousin Vinny"

Vinny Gambini: I object to this witness being called at this time. We've been given no prior notice he'd testify. No discovery of any tests he's conducted or reports he's prepared. And as the court is aware, the defense is entitled to advance notice of any witness who will testify, particularly to those who will give scientific evidence, so that we can properly prepare for cross-examination, as well as to give the defense an opportunity to have the witness's reports reviewed by a defense expert, who might then be in a position to contradict the veracity of his conclusions.
[there is a short pause as Judge Haller appears caught off-guard by Vinny's sudden competence with knowledge of the law]
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Mr. Gambini?
Vinny Gambini: Yes, sir?
Judge Chamberlain Haller: That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.
Vinny Gambini: Thank you, Your Honor.
Judge Chamberlain Haller: [firm tone] Overruled.
 
When I first heard about the case, I thought it might be something like this.
Thought it might have been something like the Diane Zamora case.

I can understand someone's mind going there. That's reasonable. But the facts are out there. In fact, outside of the recent revelations regarding contamination in the lab, there really hasn't been anything new in years.

Certain theories might be good for a fictional soap opera story but not for reality where lives are on the line.
 
A 112 call resulted in the PP arriving first but not THE 112 call.

The PP did not take DNA samples or fingerprints. They closed off the cottage with the help of the Carabinieri and the ICSI were brought in for forensic discovery work.

Now, if I'm mistaken and the PP took samples please provide a credible source.

I suspect Xinonix just got his terms mixed up, or he assumed greater knowledge of his audience than was warranted.

Like the Polizia Scientifica, the Polizia Postale is a division of the Italian Polizia di Stato. Raffaele had called the Carabinieri which is a different organization entirely. However because the Postals showed up first, the Polizia di Stato had jurisdiction over the case, leading to the use of the Polizia Scientifica as to opposed the Carabinieri's forensic technicians and scientists.

If I recall correctly, the Carabinieri handed over the electronic data files of the work they did on 36I from the knife, just as the independent court experts Conti and Vecchiotti did. That means of the three Italian organizations which did DNA work on this case only the Polizia Scientifica of the Polizia di Stato refused to cough up the data for the DNA work they did. Stefanoni claimed they never had to turn over those files, which those other scientists did as a matter of course.

An interesting aside relevant to the current discussion: the amount of DNA on the bra clasp was not actually measured, it was determined by Real Time DNA which notes when the (amplified) DNA in a sample crosses a certain threshold and then computes backwards from that to determine how much DNA was in the initial sample, as the (geometric) formula is known. However if that threshold is changed incorrectly, that would affect the results of the computation, quite possibly by orders of magnitude. That threshold was changed by Stefanoni and I've not heard a good explanation as to why, and I recall reading in a post by Dan-O that the (reported) efficiency of that reaction was unusually high, meaning that it supposedly took a shorter time to reach that threshold--which would indicate a larger initial sample.

The (entire) sample for the bra clasp was reported as being on the order of 1-1.4 nanograms, with Raffaele's contribution estimated as being 1/7th (Stefanoni) to 1/10th (Tagliabracci) of that. That would make Raffaele's DNA in the sample about 100-200 picograms, if the value determined through Real Time DNA was correctly calculated. On the other hand if the unusually high efficiency rate indicates that the threshold was incorrectly changed that would mean the initial sample was in fact much (as in many times) smaller than the values she reported.

We know she tried to give the impression the knife sample DNA was much larger than it actually was, lying in court about it being computed through Real Time DNA and being 'hundreds of picograms' when Real Time DNA was not done, she never got a value from the Qubit outside "too low" and the electropherogram indicated results consistent with about a 10 pg sample. Would it be a terrible surprise if she'd done something similar with the bra clasp to suggest a much larger sample than her actual data indicated?

Incidentally, have you thought your theory about Rudy being a fence all the way through? As in, here you have a guy caught in a nursery school illegally (in Milan) with items of theirs in his pack as well as haven emptied out their petty cash drawer who also just so happens to be bearing a computer and a cell phone from the recent burglary of the lawyers office in Perugia. He claims he bought them from someone in Milan, which would be a remarkable coincidence in that he happened to buy items stolen from his hometown in a train station in Milan, which is hell and gone from Perugia, about 300 miles away. As I understand it you don't believe the where of how he acquired those items, but believe him on the how--meaning you find it credible that he'd bought the computer and the cell phone in Perugia and took it to Milan to fence it? Do I have that right?

Now stop and think that all the way through. :)
 
Last edited:
just a reversible boy...

This is what is truly bizarre about this. Hellmann gives the one, truly informed opinion on this tidbit of information, and it is his decision which is quashed!

Why is the ISC trying to protect Mignini, et al., and why did the send a moron like Nencini to repair the damage?

Maybe they figured a moron would make it easier to reverse a guilty verdict?
 
You have this wrong. The postal police played no role, once they had cleared the building. Napoleoni became the lead investigator, not the postals, and Mignini had a role in directing the investigation as the local Public Minister. The Carabinieri (IIRC) are the 'other' service which could have been involved.

Well as a demonstration of how one admits an error, I was not correct when I said that the Carabinieri handled the work after the PP "sealed" it. It was the Perugian State Police headed by Monica in a squad known as the Flying Squad.

While looking into this I found -
Municipal Police[edit]
In addition, each commune has its own Polizia Municipale (municipal police) whose main duty is to enforce local regulations and traffic laws; it also deals with petty crimes but in larger cities they cooperate with the national police forces to prevent and repress major crimes. Depending on their location they are also called Polizia Municipale, Polizia Locale, Polizia Comunale, Polizia Urbana or Vigili Urbani.

I would think they would handle such things as CT and the lawyers' theft.
 
I suspect Xinonix just got his terms mixed up, or he assumed greater knowledge of his audience than was warranted.

Like the Polizia Scientifica, the Polizia Postale is a division of the Italian Polizia di Stato. Raffaele had called the Carabinieri which is a different organization entirely. However because the Postals showed up first, the Polizia di Stato had jurisdiction over the case, leading to the use of the Polizia Scientifica as to opposed the Carabinieri's forensic technicians and scientists.

If I recall correctly, the Carabinieri handed over the electronic data files of the work they did on 36I from the knife, just as the independent court experts Conti and Vecchiotti did. That means of the three Italian organizations which did DNA work on this case only the Polizia Scientifica of the Polizia di Stato refused to cough up the data for the DNA work they did. Stefanoni claimed they never had to turn over those files, which those other scientists did as a matter of course.

An interesting aside relevant to the current discussion: the amount of DNA on the bra clasp was not actually measured, it was determined by Real Time DNA which notes when the (amplified) DNA in a sample crosses a certain threshold and then computes backwards from that to determine how much DNA was in the initial sample, as the (geometric) formula is known. However if that threshold is changed incorrectly, that would affect the results of the computation, quite possibly by orders of magnitude. That threshold was changed by Stefanoni and I've not heard a good explanation as to why, and I recall reading in a post by Dan-O that the (reported) efficiency of that reaction was unusually high, meaning that it supposedly took a shorter time to reach that threshold--which would indicate a larger initial sample.

The (entire) sample for the bra clasp was reported as being on the order of 1-1.4 nanograms, with Raffaele's contribution estimated as being 1/7th (Stefanoni) to 1/10th (Tagliabracci) of that. That would make Raffaele's DNA in the sample about 100-200 picograms, if the value determined through Real Time DNA was correctly calculated. On the other hand if the unusually high efficiency rate indicates that the threshold was incorrectly changed that would mean the initial sample was in fact much (as in many times) smaller than the values she reported.

We know she tried to give the impression the knife sample DNA was much larger than it actually was, lying in court about it being computed through Real Time DNA and being 'hundreds of picograms' when Real Time DNA was not done, she never got a value from the Qubit outside "too low" and the electropherogram indicated results consistent with about a 10 pg sample. Would it be a terrible surprise if she'd done something similar with the bra clasp to suggest a much larger sample than her actual data indicated?

Good point. I'll add that the amount of contamination seen in the positive control for this run is about the same quantity as what is claimed to be in the bra hook sample. So, who's to say that there was any DNA on the bra hooks, and the amount quantified isn't simply the result of contamination just like the positive control?

The entire quantification run for 165b is invalid.
 
Hellman the Magnificent

From Hellman:
"There has been much discussion on whether the call to 112 happened before or after the arrival of the Police, with it having been hypothesized by the Public Minister that the call to the Carabinieri at 112 had been made on seeing the arrival of the Police, just to validate the notion [tesi] of their innocence. Except that even the Corte di Assise of first level, on the basis of the testimony given by the on-duty Police personnel and of the times reproduced from the logs, arrived at the conclusion that these calls had been made before the arrival of the Police and unaware of their imminent arrival. And, for that matter, what makes irrelevant the problem of whether the call to the Carabinieri was before or after the arrival of the Police is the fact that Amanda Knox had already called Filomena Romanelli at 12:08 pm, certainly before the arrival of the Police, such that at that point, she had already informed [partecipato] another person [soggetto estraneo] (whether it was the Carabinieri or Filomena Romanelli in this context does not matter)that they (Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito) had entered into the house on Via Della Pergola, finding a situation that caused alarm."

Hellman was so thorough. Yet not even Hellman could acquit on the calumnia charge. It shows the corruption is deeply rooted and truth is a negotiable commodity.
 
"It shows the corruption is deeply rooted and truth is a negotiable commodity. "

I am working on the theory that Rudy worked with the police as an informer, and did some other jobs for them. I would think that if the assassination of Meridith were a project that both the police and Rudy took part, they would do things in a way that fake samples of DNA and fake fingerprints would cause the mystery to go unsolved.
It appears that something went wrong with this plan.
There are 2 types of police that were not expected to work on this crime, the postal police, and the German police (they caught Rudy on the train).
Because of this Rudy's friends lost control of things.
 
<snip>

Incidentally, have you thought your theory about Rudy being a fence all the way through? As in, here you have a guy caught in a nursery school illegally (in Milan) with items of theirs in his pack as well as haven emptied out their petty cash drawer who also just so happens to be bearing a computer and a cell phone from the recent burglary of the lawyers office in Perugia. He claims he bought them from someone in Milan, which would be a remarkable coincidence in that he happened to buy items stolen from his hometown in a train station in Milan, which is hell and gone from Perugia, about 300 miles away. As I understand it you don't believe the where of how he acquired those items, but believe him on the how--meaning you find it credible that he'd bought the computer and the cell phone in Perugia and took it to Milan to fence it? Do I have that right?

Now stop and think that all the way through. :)


Hiya Kaosium,
I find it weird that Guede had his screensaver photo already on the stolen laptop, and his SIM in the stolen phone too.

Per Rudy Guede and PLE:
However then in the morning I saw this lady and a child and some men, I explained everything to the lady, how things had happened, and I said to the lady to call the Police. Then the Police came who then seized my cell phone and computer.
Napoleoni: Was the cell phone yours Rudy?
Guede: The cell phone wasn’t mine, it wasn’t mine… in the sense that I hadn’t bought it… Pros. Mignini: Do you remember the number?
Guede: My SIM number yes
Pros. Mignini: The one they seized in Milan
Guede: The SIM was mine but not the cell phone
Napoleoni: Can you tell us the number of the SIM
Guede: 329.1819627 and from that moment I never had a cell phone again
Napoleoni: Sorry Rudy, this SIM card, do you remember when you used it?
Guede: Since a long time… it was actually in my name…


Hmmmm,
Guede says that he didn't buy the cell phone.
I wonder if the laptop seller gave him a free phone when he purchased the computer?
Or did he steal it himself?

I guess maybe Rudy thought that would make it easier to sell both items when he,
(lookin' a bit disheveled after partyin' + dancin' the last few days when in Milan),
was meeting customers out and about town if he personalized the phone and computer?

I can just see Guede walkin' up to a stranger,
"Hey, wanna buy my cellphone"?
"If you're interested, I'll make ya a great deal on my laptop"...


Didn't Rudy have some stolen keys on him also?
How would a cop know that they were stolen?
Stolen from where? The Lawyers Office?
If so, what a weird coincidence.

Maybe Guede was gonna sell the keys also...
RW
 
Last edited:
I think the 45 day deadline for the defense to submit its response to Nencini has come and gone by now. Should we expect to hear any news about this?
 
You know how we've seen the "Disturbing the Peace" ticket that Amanda Knox got
when some boyz were too loud and bein' goofballs while partying 1 night + throwin' rocks?
Heck, Mignini even brought this up in court.

I'd really like to see the police report from when Rudy Guede was busted inside that Nursery School.

Officer Napoleoni sure doesn't seem to ask too many questions about that stolen latop
when she has Rudy Guede, with lawyer present, sittin' right in front of her...


Another question for ya:
Why would Rudy Guede travel 300 miles or so back to Perugia
and then head to the Lawyers Office to say that it wasn't me that stole your stuff?
Weird...
RW
 
Last edited:
Good point. I'll add that the amount of contamination seen in the positive control for this run is about the same quantity as what is claimed to be in the bra hook sample. So, who's to say that there was any DNA on the bra hooks, and the amount quantified isn't simply the result of contamination just like the positive control?

The entire quantification run for 165b is invalid.

Which may also explain why the electropherogram from the first run on the bra clasp was withheld: it did not indicate Raffaele's DNA contributed to the sample. It would also suggest a motive for storing the bra clasp in extraction buffer ensuring it was rendered useless for further DNA analysis: that wouldn't show Raffaele's DNA either if another sample was taken and boy that might be tough to explain....
 
I can understand someone's mind going there. That's reasonable. But the facts are out there. In fact, outside of the recent revelations regarding contamination in the lab, there really hasn't been anything new in years.

Certain theories might be good for a fictional soap opera story but not for reality where lives are on the line.

I mostly began examining the case after Hellman and being told that the case could be appealed by the prosecution.
 
You know how we've seen the "Disturbing the Peace" ticket that Amanda Knox got
when some boyz were too loud and bein' goofballs while partying 1 night + throwin' rocks?
Heck, Mignini even brought this up in court.

I'd really like to see the police report from when Rudy Guede was busted inside that Nursery School.

Officer Napoleoni sure doesn't seem to ask too many questions about that stolen latop
when she has Rudy Guede, with lawyer present, sittin' right in front of her...


Another question for ya:
Why would Rudy Guede travel 300 miles or so back to Perugia
and then head to the Lawyers Office to say that it wasn't me that stole your stuff?
Weird...
RW

It must mean something, I agree. Let's put that one with the 'what attracted their attention?' question re: the recent car park CCTV pics. In fact, there is quite a collection of these mysteries. Btw. on the car park thing I believe it must have been something they heard. It was dark and there was nothing to see in the direction of the house. It must have been a sound. Was Guede howling at the moon in some freaked out state?
 
Hiya Kaosium,
I find it weird that Guede had his screensaver photo already on the stolen laptop, and his SIM in the stolen phone too.

As Anglo pointed out putting the picture on the laptop makes sense in that it makes it appear that he owned it. Putting the SIM in would seem to expose him to getting caught as the cell company would know the phone and serial number he was using.

Guede says that he didn't buy the cell phone.
I wonder if the laptop seller gave him a free phone when he purchased the computer?
Or did he steal it himself?

Either he stole them alone or with a partner or the thief fronted him the stuff to sell in Milan.

I guess maybe Rudy thought that would make it easier to sell both items when he,
(lookin' a bit disheveled after partyin' + dancin' the last few days when in Milan),
was meeting customers out and about town if he personalized the phone and computer?

Who knows if he was dancing as it is just his word and we're only allowed to believe those things that fit the person's personal theory.

Didn't Rudy have some stolen keys on him also?
How would a cop know that they were stolen?
Stolen from where? The Lawyers Office?
If so, what a weird coincidence.

Maybe Guede was gonna sell the keys also...
RW

I wondered about the keys as well. He says they took the phone and the laptop. I wonder why they wouldn't also take the watch and the keys.

Maybe the keys had an alarm key or some key that he couldn't possibly own like a Ferrari key.
 
Supposedly Cristian Tramontano came forth in early Jan. of 2008
to report to Perugia law enforcement that he was a victim of Rudy Guede's crime spree.

Didn't most everyone in Italy at the time believe AK and RS were guilty?
Heck, even Frank Sfarzo still believed so, if I recall correctly.

Did The Amanda Knox PR task Force get to him?
"Rudy Guede's a knife wielding burglar"?

When CT came forward, didn't he speak with Officer Napoleoni?


Cristian Tramontano came forward well before Antonio Curatolo did so and store owner Marco Quintavalle changed his mind a year later that he did indeed see Amanda Knox tryin' to buy bleach in the early hours.

Weird how Marco did not say hi to Amanda,
she, a cutie with those blue eyes.

"Hi, what can I do for you this morning?"
"Cleaning supplies, some bleach?"
"Give us a few moments while I turn on the lights and open my store, ok?"

Weird how Marco's store employee Marina Chiriboga didn't see Amanda Knox that morning.
Did she get to work late that day? Or was The Boss simply confused?
Weird how Marco did not tell the cops that he saw AK that next morning after Meredith was murdered, lookin' to buy some bleach when they questioned him soon afterwards.

It's the murder of year.
A foreign college student murdered, raped.
Police musta been under alotta pressure.

"Did you see anything?"
"Does your store have video surveillance?"
"We want the tapes, err, to copy the hard drive"?

Weird too that Curatolo did not tell the cops that he saw a guy and gal,
for over 2 hours, hangin' out near a railing,
looking toward the same place were Meredith was murdered.

Even though the cops questioned him that day, right?
And he was a testifying witness in 2 previous murder trials in Perugia...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom