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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Modeling a known is not the same as modeling the unknown: and it is a fundamental scientific mistake to think it is. I've heard this argument time and time again from the AGW Crowd and it time-and-time again proves that what they are engaged in is not Science.

Until these models can make accurate predictions about future climate, then we'll have to assume that the AGW Crowd doesn't understand the Science.

[qimg]http://www.ostrichheadinsand.com/images/ostrich-head-in-sand.jpg[/qimg]

Climate Modeler

look, the IPCC and climate modellers know its not the same, that is why they call it projections and not predictions, they also deal with them as if they are projections and not predictions when they evaluate them by comparing them to observations. yet it is the deniers that deal with it as if it were predictions anyway.
 
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look, the IPCC and climate modellers know its not the same, that is why they call it projections and not predictions, they also deal with them as if they are projections and not predictions when they evaluate them by comparing them to observations. yet it is the deniers that deal with it as if it were predictions anyway.


You say these models are a Projection? OMFG!

Well...if that is so, then I'll just make us a Global-Warming Model right now. I'll just project the last 15 years of warming data into the future and "Viola"...Global Warming is projected to have ceased! So...there is nothing to worry about.

See how easy it is to model?
 
Useful tools? Useful...for what?

I mean, these models consistently fail to model reality. As a result, it indicates these people don't know what the hell they are doing - and this crap has been going on for over 20 years!

As a result, I am an AGW Science Denier - and I'm very proud that I am a DENIER. You see, I love science. In fact, I love science so much that when I see something like AGW come along and pretend that the "Science is Settled", then it really irks me for they are busting the cardinal rule of Science: If ya' can't show it, then ya' don't know it!.

In short, the AGW Alarmist Crowd are busting a cardinal rule of Science and, as a result, they are no longer engaged in Science - they are engaged in Mysticism. And...that's why I call myself a DENIER, for I DENY what the AGW Crowd is doing is Science.

So by your logic the ones who take the same position as every scientific society in the world are the ones who are engaged in mysticism? Do you realise how silly you sound?

Do YOU have a model that works?

Listen...I am not the one claiming AGW is going to be a problem, so I don't have to show anything. It's the people who claim to have knowledge that have to prove their point - this is how Science works.

Also, I don't have to show anything contradicting the claim that the missing Heat is hiding in the oceans - However....YOU HAVE TO SHOW IT BECAUSE YOU CLAIM TO KNOW IT. Again...that's the way Science works.

[qimg]http://thealewife.typepad.com/weblog/images/2007/11/26/richardlindzen1.jpg[/qimg]

DENIER!

So you really believe that we can more than double the amount of a greenhouse gas in our atmosphere but it is only the ones who accept the scientific consensus who have to prove that their position is right. You really believe that? I would have thought that if anything it was the other way round. That it is up to the deniers to prove that we can change the composition of gases in the atmosphere without it having the consequences predicted by the scientific consensus.
Also showing a picture of one of the few scientists trying to downplay the consequences proves nothing. Here is a link to a former president of the National Academy of Sciences who went against a scientific consensus
 
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You say these models are a Projection? OMFG!

Well...if that is so, then I'll just make us a Global-Warming Model right now. I'll just project the last 15 years of warming data into the future and "Viola"...Global Warming is projected to have ceased! So...there is nothing to worry about.

See how easy it is to model?

so you don't even know what is meant ? wow.

and if you just project the warming of the last 15 years onto the next 15 years, you still have warming. or is that another denier myth you have fallen for?
 
So you really believe that we can more than double the amount of a greenhouse gas in our atmosphere but it is only the ones who accept the scientific consensus who have to prove that their position is right.

You have lost the plot. Science is not validated by consensus.

Again...more evidence that what the AGW Crowd is engaged in IS NOT SCIENCE!
 
You say these models are a Projection? OMFG!

Well...if that is so, then I'll just make us a Global-Warming Model right now. I'll just project the last 15 years of warming data into the future and "Viola"...Global Warming is projected to have ceased! So...there is nothing to worry about.

See how easy it is to model?

You have just exactly described the way your global warming model works. If you think that is how scientific models work then you are very deluded.

This is a science forum Jules. If you want to write posts not backed up by any science then I would suggest wattsupwiththat. You are impressing nobody here.
 
You have lost the plot. Science is not validated by consensus.

Again...more evidence that what the AGW Crowd is engaged in IS NOT SCIENCE!

AGW is not validated because there is a consensus.
there is a very strong consensus because the evidence is so overwhelming.
 
You have lost the plot. Science is not validated by consensus.

Again...more evidence that what the AGW Crowd is engaged in IS NOT SCIENCE!

So all you have to offer this discussion is faulty logic and no science. You must be very proud.
 
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So all you have to offer this discussion is faulty logic and no science. You must be very proud.

If my Logic is faulty, then feel free to show me how this is so.

As far as the Science is concerned, you are the one defending the hypothesis that AGW is a Problem, so it is up to you to prove it.
 
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AGW is not validated because there is a consensus.
there is a very strong consensus because the evidence is so overwhelming.


Well...I hope you haven't included these so-called "Models" as evidence, for they are not convincing. they are wrong.

as far as the Data is concerned; well, the data has shown Global Warming since the 1970s, and the data has shown that Carbon Dioxide in the Atmosphere has steadily increased since the 1970's...and before...and I believe this is caused by burning fossil fuels. However, there has been shown no conclusive evidence that the increase in CO2 levels is responsible for the Global Warming that we have seen, or that this increase in CO2 should ever become an issue.
 
If my Logic is faulty, then feel free to show me how this is so.

As far as the Science is concerned, you are the one defending the hypothesis that AGW is a Problem, so it is up to you to prove it.

I've already shown why your second sentence is illogical. You are the one saying that we can release billions of tonnes of a greenhouse gas into the atmosphere without it causing problems. Prove it. All you are doing at the moment is saying we have no reason to reduce these emissions because? Well because you say so. And you can hand wave away the fact that this is a different position to every scientific society in the world because? Well just because you say so.
I will repeat, you are impressing no one with this totally devoid of science nonsense.
 
Useful tools? Useful...for what?

I mean, these models consistently fail to model reality. As a result, it indicates these people don't know what the hell they are doing - and this crap has been going on for over 20 years!

As a result, I am an AGW Science Denier - and I'm very proud that I am a DENIER. You see, I love science. In fact, I love science so much that when I see something like AGW come along and pretend that the "Science is Settled", then it really irks me for they are busting the cardinal rule of Science: If ya' can't show it, then ya' don't know it!.

In short, the AGW Alarmist Crowd are busting a cardinal rule of Science and, as a result, they are no longer engaged in Science - they are engaged in Mysticism. And...that's why I call myself a DENIER, for I DENY what the AGW Crowd is doing is Science.

Well, freedom is free and unchained, they say, didn't they?

Your post is devoid of content, but two things might come from it:

If models are so wrong, why is CoolSkeptic's linked attachement 31129 so easy duckie to shot down? Do you have something better to offer (something that stands analysis, I mean)? Not verborrhoea, I mean a figure with variables represented and an attribution.

Finally, it's clear your post says "A is #@*%" and "I love B which has a nice scent", no matter A and B is the same, and despite the clear attempt to conceal hate into the word love, your post shows that hygiene and purity is there as a concern, and not love as an instinct or social value. If you do love, you are patient, you forgive, you try to meet in a middle place and you don't make soapbox harangues that scare even the birds.

You simply used "love" as a buzzword, just like you did with "science".
 
Well...I hope you haven't included these so-called "Models" as evidence, for they are not convincing. they are wrong.

as far as the Data is concerned; well, the data has shown Global Warming since the 1970s, and the data has shown that Carbon Dioxide in the Atmosphere has steadily increased since the 1970's...and before...and I believe this is caused by burning fossil fuels. However, there has been shown no conclusive evidence that the increase in CO2 levels is responsible for the Global Warming that we have seen, or that this increase in CO2 should ever become an issue.

Well I found the measurements of the enhanced greenhouse effect very convincing. you not? what about those measurements was not convincing to you?

and it is actually the only thing that can explain the observed warming.

in addition to that, the tropospheric warming and stratospheric cooling are also very convincing that the warming is indeed from GHG's-
 
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Well...I hope you haven't included these so-called "Models" as evidence, for they are not convincing. they are wrong.

The days of a bunsen burner on a bench a long gone. From what I can gather, most bleeding edge science would not be possible without computer models. They aren't "so-called" models, they are models.

Science has been modeled for centuries now, since we created the first mathematical representation of the behaviour of a system.
 
The days of a bunsen burner on a bench a long gone. From what I can gather, most bleeding edge science would not be possible without computer models. They aren't "so-called" models, they are models.

Science has been modeled for centuries now, since we created the first mathematical representation of the behaviour of a system.

I appreciate the Global Warming Models and I hope that the Scientists who write them keep up their work. When these scientists put together these models, they also include most everything they know about atmospheric science (or I would assume they would) and then run using the best data available.

As a result of the failure of these models, we can now know that the Scientists don't understand the atmosphere well enough to predict Global Warming, or they just don't have enough data. In any case, it's too early to say that AGW is real...much less a problem. A better approach would be to keep studying the atmosphere and oceans and gain more data...and refine the models accordingly. And...when/if they can model the system right, then I'll believe them.
 
As a result of the failure of these models, we can now know that the Scientists don't understand the atmosphere well enough to predict Global Warming, or they just don't have enough data. In any case, it's too early to say that AGW is real...much less a problem.

That's just wishful thinking.

I suppose you're making an act of some sort, because a "science-lover", as you like to think of yourself, can't ignore that AGW being real and a problem didn't, doesn't and will never come from any computing model of climate.
 
Jules, your failure to understand variability (particularly in the lower atmosphere) is not a failure of the models themselves. Please show in what way the models have 'failed'.

By definition the models will always require improvement, due to new studies refining the knowledge base, refinements to the data from improved error rejection and correction, improvements to the hardware allowing better resolution, or more runs to improve the statistical outlook. Just because there is always room for improvement does not mean that the older models lack skill.
 
Tireseome.
The was a projection made in 1981 - the lurid line is the reality for the next 30 years.
It undershot the mark because it is impossible to predict the release of C02 by unpredictable humans.

Tglobal_giss_verification.jpg


This is how the atmosphere works....the physics has been long established - especially in the case of CO2 - why you could even demostrate the principle in your kitchen if you chose to ....12 year old science students do it all the time for the science fairs. Or is it beyond your skill set perhaps since you don't want to answer the key question.

Does CO2 trap IR?
onlinefig1_high.gif


The primary driver of AGW just now is CO2 which has increased to 400 ppm frm 280 during the industrial revolution.

These are the measured results.
Small increases in global temperatures up to 1950
54AB933A-627B-489E-BBE319BE9FEDAC8C.jpg


Much greater increases since then.

735DEC0E-749C-4EFF-A3EDDCA469488883.jpg


This is one of the measured outcomes...
20121230_Icesheet_mass_balance_2009_fig2.gif

this is another
glacier_mass_balance.png


Ocean and air are an interchange surface...ENSO shows up cyclically as changes in ocean temperatures
La Nina engenders some observable cooling by keep the heat trapped.
The last decade has featured La Nina dominated conditions with no major El Nino since that favorite year of the denier crowd 1998

El Nino engenders a warming signal by releasing heat.

This is the heat in the Pacific earlier this year.

monster-kelvin-wave.gif


This is the anomalous heat which is engendering a El Nino this year.
Screen%2520Shot%25202014-06-14%2520at%2520Jun%252C%252014%2520%2520%2520%25202014%2520%2520%2520%25205.53.29%2520PM.jpg


It is massive by past measurement.
Yet the source is clear....there has been no hiatus in warming in the ocean - in fact as measurements show it has accelerated.

heat_content2000m.png


It has consequences world wide just as the unprecedented one in 1998 did.

El Niño exerts a deadly effect : Nature News & Comment
www.nature.com/news/el-niño-exerts-a-deadly-effect-1.11158
Aug 12, 2012 - El Niño events, which displace warm water into the eastern Pacific ... pollution can account for as many as 15,000 deaths in El Niño years, the study says. ... pollution in El Niño years would exact a heavy toll on the population.

There is a known set of physics driving the change in the energy balance of the planet.
It is the addition of fossil carbon by way of burning fossil fuels which form carbon dioxide.
Even Exxon finally acknowledges it even tho their own scientists informed them of it in 1995 - they denied the connection as you do.
They lied and have now acknowledged the serious risk of climate change as the global science community has been warning about since the 80s.

Verifiable underlying process.
Substantiated by a climate projection in 1981 that tracked the expected increase very well given the always uncertainty of human activity.
Supported by numerous disciplines such as glaciology showning massive loss of glaciers world wide and Arctic Ocean measurements showing almost complete loss of thousands of year old ice shelves and historic lows in ice volume.

Substantiated also by changes in the biome - onset of spring, species moving to the poles - some as far as 700 km out of their historical range.

These are measured outcomes....due to a known mechanism

You have no counter to them.

To deny the reality of the above .....well...

:dl: is all that is left for your position...equal in magnitude to the folly to denying evolution.
This is not written for you.....anyone with a shred of sense would understand that we are warming the planet.

This is for the casual reader that might think your position has any validity in science....it has not.

The deniers might get away with promulgating the nonsense on Faux news and right wing talk radio without being challenged.
Not here. :rolleyes:
 
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You have lost the plot. Science is not validated by consensus.

Again...more evidence that what the AGW Crowd is engaged in IS NOT SCIENCE!

According to all the major scientific institutions and bodies on the planet, Mainstream climate science is fully recognized as, and in accord with mainstream science. Why do you think that all legitimate scientific organizations on the planet would support mainstream climate science, if as you say, mainstream climate science is so obviously not science?
 
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