Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

[Red Baron Farms]

Remember to send a post card when you get to China!!!

Oh so now you are a conspiracy theorist!

 

[Reality Check]

1) ...
2)...

1) Where did I say that critics claims are true?

There is mixed scientific evidence about Savoy's HM and the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal.

2) Where did I say that was my entire argument, etc.?

I dismiss the two videos that you cite because they are anecdotes not evidence, Red Baron Farms !
I dismiss any other anecdotes that you cite as supporting HM because they are anecdotes, not evidence, Red Baron Farms!

Please do not insult Savoy's HM by making it akin to homeopathy (lots of anecdotes, not evidence) or acupuncture (lots of anecdotes, some evidence that it works as good as a placebo) or any other practice supported by anecdotes but not scientific evidence.

I know that there is scientific evidence for and against Savoy's HM.
You should know that anecdotes are not scientific evidence for or against Savoy's HM, Red Baron Farms. Think about this: someone could cite all of the successful farmers in the world that are not using Savoy's HM and their unwritten "anecdotes" as evidence against Savoy's HM !

 

[Reality Check]

Oh so now you are a conspiracy theorist!

Here the hole is the dependency on anecdotes - every anecdote you rely on is a shovel full of dirt that is steadily digging yourself into a hole until you arrive in China !

 

[Reality Check]

A possible example of a lack of scientific evidence: A central part of Savoy's HM looks like that "In many regions, pastoralism and communal land use are blamed for environmental degradation caused by overgrazing. After years of research and experience, Savory came to understand this assertion was often wrong, and that sometimes removing animals actually made it worse".

So, Red Baron Farms, where is the scientific evidence for this?
An obvious "experiment"- what effects did the removal of the American plains bison have on the Great Plains? Did new deserts form? Existing deserts expand or contract? What would be Savoy's "postdictions" for these?

A less obvious "experiment": The reduction of large herbivores (elephants, antelopes, buffalo, rhino) from the African savannah. Did new deserts form? Existing deserts expand or contract? What would be Savoy's "postdictions" for these?

 

[rwguinn]

Oh so now you are a conspiracy theorist!

wHOOSH!

When you find yourself at the bottom of a deep hole, Put the shovel down

 

[Red Baron Farms]

You seem to have forgotten the team working with Gabe Brown to collect the evidence in the educational vid include half a dozen or more Phd scientists. You can call that "anecdotal" if you wish. Who cares really? You have clearly established you have no knowledge of the subject at all beyond google and referencing a wiki page I wrote on the subject , and couldn't even recognize HM when presented to you in the simplest of terms. SARE means sustainable agriculture research and education. Not just research and not just education, but both. The research is done and the evidence is collected by professionals. I even gave you a list of a few since I doubted you could be bothered to actually investigate the evidence yourself. You can bad mouth it all you wish, but it only makes you sound like a fool.

 

[Reality Check]

You seem to have forgotten the team working with Gabe Brown to collect the evidence in the educational vid include half a dozen or more Phd scientists...snipped rant and insults....

Yes, Red Baron Farms - that video remains an anecdote.
When that team publishes the data in the scientific literature then it becomes scientific evidence. Amazing that you do not know this simple fact, Red Baron Farms !
If the analysis of that scientific evidence shows that it can only be produced from Savoy's HM being better then any other land management regime then we will have a bit of scientific evidence on HM's side.

ETA: And the "half a dozen or more Phd" is an irrelevant addition - it could be 1 person, it could be a hundred people, it could be a graduate student, it could be a professor with decades of experience. What matters is that the data is gathered properly, analyzed properly and published properly.

 

[Reality Check]

Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI

The ignorance of thinking that I do not know what SARE stands for when I linked to their web site hear and found no SARE educational material about Savoy's HM on it (just a link to one SARE conference):

As for SARE - I get results from "Holistic management Savoy" that are mostly personal accounts, a conference event and books.

reminds me of the unsupported assertions:
* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

And now:
Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Who cares if it is better than any other? It is significantly better than conventional. Gabe started with a SOM of 1.7-1.9% and a water infiltration rate of 0.5 inches per hour. Now his SOM is 5.1 -6.3% and has an infiltration rate of 8 inches per hour. He completely stopped fertilisers, insecticides and fungicides 100% and is down to 1 herbicide pass every 2-3 years on his cropland and never on the rangeland. AND he outproduce the county average by 25% or more. And feeds cattle on crop residue and cover crops for an additional production/profit stream! Probably isn't even close to the best that can be done, but it's one hell of a lot better than current so called BMP or GAP.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Who cares if it is better than any other? It is significantly better than conventional. Gabe started with a SOM of 1.7-1.9% and a water infiltration rate of 0.5 inches per hour. Now his SOM is 5.1 -6.3% and has an infiltration rate of 8 inches per hour. He completely stopped fertilisers, insecticides and fungicides 100% and is down to 1 herbicide pass every 2-3 years on his cropland and never on the rangeland. AND he outproduce the county average by 25% or more. And feeds cattle on crop residue and cover crops for an additional production/profit stream! Probably isn't even close to the best that can be done, but it's one hell of a lot better than current so called BMP or GAP.

In which journal were his results published?

 

[Red Baron Farms]

In which journal were his results published?

As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal. However, the same team that has been working on Gabe's farm have started a project that probably will be published at some point. It varies because instead of a working with a farmer cooperator, this is owned directly by the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. It is called the Menoken farm soil foodweb project. Here is the project's funding request, and it is currently operational: link

PS:Gabe's case study as well as a couple other case studies are also part of the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District, but the Menoken Farm is owned and managed directly instead of through a cooperating farmer.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal. However, the same team that has been working on Gabe's farm have started a project that probably will be published at some point. It varies because instead of a working with a farmer cooperator, this is owned directly by the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. It is called the Menoken farm soil foodweb project. Here is the project's funding request, and it is currently operational: link

PS:Gabe's case study as well as a couple other case studies are also part of the Burleigh County Soil Conservation District, but the Menoken Farm is owned and managed directly instead of through a cooperating farmer.

Peer reviewed or it didn't happen.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Peer reviewed or it didn't happen.

Was your birth peer reviewed and published in a scientific journal? Show me or you didn't happen and I can safely ignore your trolling from here on out.

 

[Reality Check]

Who cares if it is better than any other? ...snipped anecdote....

And your scientific evidence is, Red Baron Farms?
You have an anecdote about (supposed because not published!) improvements on one ranch because the rancher decided to pay attention to improving their ranch !

And then you ask the rather dumb question - "Who cares if it is better than any other?"! It seems better than whatever he was doing before ! The best way to see if a method improves land quality is to test it against other methods.

 

[Reality Check]

* Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

* Red Baron Farms (9th June 2014): Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

* Red Baron Farms (10th June 2014): Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?

* Red Baron Farms (16 June 2014): Please supply evidence for the USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI.
And that this is somehow special, e.g. they only give grants for valid or proven land management techniques. If they give grants for any research into land management then this is nothing to do with the validity or not of Savoy's HM

 

[Red Baron Farms]

And your scientific evidence is, Red Baron Farms?
You have an anecdote about (supposed because not published!) improvements on one ranch because the rancher decided to pay attention to improving their ranch !

And then you ask the rather dumb question - "Who cares if it is better than any other?"! It seems better than whatever he was doing before ! The best way to see if a method improves land quality is to test it against other methods.

I gave you one published paper, and a trial that is set to be published, and very strong anecdotal evidence that was collected by trained professional observers. Not to mention Savory himself is a published scientist and he built his work based partly on further developing published science. Your bickering over this is petty. Get over it. It doesn't have to be perfect to be much better than current models, and it is.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal.

I gave you one published paper....

Does not compute.

...and very strong anecdotal evidence....

Ding ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!!

...that was collected by trained professional observers. Not to mention Savory himself is a published scientist and he built his work based partly on further developing published science. Your bickering over this is petty. Get over it. It doesn't have to be perfect to be much better than current models, and it is.

Meaningless drivel.

 

[Reality Check]

Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results

I gave you one published paper,

I see no sign of a published paper "given" to me Red Baron Farms.
So:

Red Baron Farms, Please cite the published paper containing Gabe Brown's results.

And what does this assertion say about

As far as I know, the results are not published in a scientific journal.

.

 

[Reality Check]

Here is the project's funding request, and it is currently operational: link.

Looks like another irrelevancy from you, Red Baron Farms: Here is a project's funding request that seems to have nothing to do with Savoy's HM !
Scanning through the document indicates no mention of Savoy or even holistic.

The Menoken farm project is about restoring what looks like degraded land (page 4 of the request). If the description is typical of the County and includes Gabe Brown's then it is no surprise that a change in management style improved the land. Any sensible change would have done so.

ETA: Gabe Brown started with:

Gabe Brown was drawn into agriculture while in high school. After college Gabe and his wife Shelly took over management of her parent’s ranch, which had seen very little diversity. The pastures had been grazed season long with cow/calf pairs and the heavily tilled cropland had only seen monocultures of small grains for many decades. The lack of diversification turned out to be an issue for the Browns because three years of intense hail and one year of drought forced them deep into debt and into off-farm jobs just to make ends meet.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Does not compute.

Of course not. You haven't been paying attention.
The Teague study, Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie, is on holistic managed land in Texas compared to other systems. How do I know this? Because I read the whole study, check all the references, checked everything I possibly could about the study including researching the land and the landowners in the study! Clint Josey for example is (or was) actually on the board of directors of HMI. That's just one example and that's Texas.

There is another ongoing study area in Burleigh County, ND The Burleigh County Soil Conservation District. Evidence for the work being done there is available, but no scientific studies published yet. The evidence is gathered by a team of scientists sent to accredited labs and they specifically started the Menoken farm for that purpose, but the scientific study is still in progress. Gabe Brown on the other hand is a cooperating farmer in ND. He is the practitioner of Holistic Management that was able to dramatically improve his severely degraded farm with HM. Dramatic enough to gain nationwide interest from said scientists.

In simple terms, Gabe tried HM. It worked. So that brought the scientists. They collected data for a few years. They even checked it with other farmers by getting them to change. That worked too. They were very impressed. They decided to run a proper publishable study in the same county so they could rigorously start from the beginning with degraded land with all the proper controls. That is currently funded and has been a couple years, but the study is not published in a scientific study yet. You can find preliminary results with the USDA NRCS and SARE, but nothing published in a science journal...yet.

Go to Arizona. Terry Wheeler is also a formally trained professional and also used HM to restore land. link In this case not land that was degraded by conventional agriculture, but instead land that was degraded by mining. Worked consistently for him too. No scientific studies though.

These are all evidences that HM works to restore degraded and desertified land and all back up Savory's claims. One is published in a scientific Journal, and one will be published, and one probably never will be. But all the evidence was collected by trained professionals. So even in the case of unpublished anecdotal evidence, it is very strong evidence. There are literally hundreds of weaker anecdotal evidences that can be found that HM works consistently, (Like the large number of ranchers using HM receiving awards) but I chose these because they are strong evidences.

I strongly feel the reason you and Reality Check and others are making such ridiculously silly arguments is that you are lazy. You haven't read the studies both for and against thoroughly. You haven't checked the evidence, or the references, or the credentials of the people involved. You haven't even taken the time to learn HM, even though it is free for the asking.

As I said more than once here. Total woo. Your arguments are purely made from ignorance.