Implications of Scottish Independence

[Tsukasa Buddha]

No. To be complete, the image had to show that the creation of a new nation state was achieved by separating and damaging another one. Otherwise you don't see the costs as well as the benefits.

The damage of not needing to subsidise a bunch of leechers?

 

[Camillus]

Too explicit. The power of the image is that you have to imagine what the butterfly is rising away from.

Rolfe.

I thought it was tired and sick, lagging behind, weighed down by expectations it couldn't deliver and doomed to flutter helplessly to the ground there to be devoured by passing ants.

My bad.

 

[Craig B]

No. To be complete, the image had to show that the creation of a new nation state was achieved by separating and damaging another one. Otherwise you don't see the costs as well as the benefits.

You mean, like how Sweden was wrecked in 1905, and Great Britain in 1922 and the Czech Republic in 1993?

 

[Rolfe]

I thought it was tired and sick, lagging behind, weighed down by expectations it couldn't deliver and doomed to flutter helplessly to the ground there to be devoured by passing ants.

My bad.

As you said, your bad.

You wouldn't care to give your reasons for believing that Scotland is a less viable country than those it's trying to catch up with?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Outstanding article here. Snipers-from-the-sidelines would do well to take heed.

http://marksimonfrankland.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/james-forsyth-of-spectator-thinks-that.html

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

You mean, like how Sweden was wrecked in 1905, and Great Britain in 1922 and the Czech Republic in 1993?

He thinks Scotland should stay in an abusive relationship because otherwise someone in England might feel a wee bit miffed.

And the addition to the butterfly picture may be crass, but it's not wrong. The Butcher's Apron portrayed as a suffocating blanket trapping the butterfly, which has at last managed to break free.

For some reason I saw it as a net of some sort, but that flag does fit the bill.

Rolfe.

 

[Giz]

He thinks Scotland should stay in an abusive relationship because otherwise someone in England might feel a wee bit miffed.

And the addition to the butterfly picture may be crass, but it's not wrong. The Butcher's Apron portrayed as a suffocating blanket trapping the butterfly, which has at last managed to break free.

For some reason I saw it as a net of some sort, but that flag does fit the bill.

Rolfe.

You continue to ignore that some people identify as British. And that is equally as valid as you identifying as Scottish.

 

[Rolfe]

Some people do. Just way not enough to win the referendum.

Rolfe.

 

[Craig B]

Another set of poll figures in the Sunday Herald.

Tom Gordon, Scottish Political Editor. Sunday 15 June 2014
THE Yes campaign is within touching distance of an historic victory in the independence referendum, according to a new poll, which puts the two sides almost neck and neck.
The Panelbase survey found a record 43% of voters now say they will back independence on September 18, compared to 47% voting No.
The figures are 48% for Yes and 52% for No once undecided voters are removed, suggesting the Yes camp needs just a 2% swing for victory.

I don't know whether the intervention of the Pope and Gordon Brown's scary lottery story will change these figures.

ETA Interesting Guardian comment here. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/14/better-together-mistakes-scottish-independence

 

[Soapy Sam]

Another set of poll figures in the Sunday Herald. I don't know whether the intervention of the Pope and Gordon Brown's scary lottery story will change these figures.

And anyone who says he does is fibbing.

I'm still finding it hard , in such numbers, to see the claimed groundswell desire for independence. The numbers are in fact, about even and could equally be interpreted as a groundswell desire for the status quo. I imagine there are a few snipers on the sidelines like myself who want something rather different from either, but I'm not claiming my views are in the majority.

ETA Interesting Guardian comment here. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/14/better-together-mistakes-scottish-independence

I'll have a look...
...my, my. It seems someone has woken up and smelled the whisky. If "Better Together" could have done a better job of selling independence to the Scots electorate, it's hard to see how. The friend of my enemy is my enemy, unless it's Alistair Darling.

 

[LondonJohn]

Another set of poll figures in the Sunday Herald. I don't know whether the intervention of the Pope and Gordon Brown's scary lottery story will change these figures.

ETA Interesting Guardian comment here. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/14/better-together-mistakes-scottish-independence

For balance, another interesting article here:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-campbell-gunn-part-of-snp-machine-1-3444216

 

[LondonJohn]

While we're posting interesting links, here's one to "Reverend" Stu Campbell's astute, incisive and mature political analysis:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/everyone-in-britain-is-a-moron/

 

[LondonJohn]

And how's this for an interesting insight into "Reverend" Stu Campbell's mentality and stability (caution, contains a litany of expletives, most of them courtesy of the "Reverend"):

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...-terrible-Metal-Slug-feature-reviewed!/page23

Even though the following paragraph was written for effect, it is still (in my opinion) extraordinarily crass, insensitive and unpleasant:

Hey Steve! I hope you get cancer, and that your cancer gets AIDS, and that you and your entire family die of being raped to death by rabid wolves in the middle of a choking chemical fire. Know what else? 9/11 was brilliant. I watched it all on TV and I laughed the whole time.

I wonder if many of those championing Campbell for his pro-independence lobbying are aware how obnoxious, unpleasant, immature and provocative he can be? Or do most of them choose to overlook this on account of the fact that he's "in their side".....?

 

[anglolawyer]

Just dipping in to this now and again as a South East Briton with no Scottish roots, I am having trouble deciding what I think and also what (if anything) I should think. In general, I am against nationalism but that cancels out here as both sides are nationalist in one way or another. I doubt Scottish independence will make much difference to me personally. I mean fiscally. Actually, if anything, it is probably good for me for the Tories to have a permanent majority in E & W except that their track record suggests they sink into abject corruption if left in office too long. Independence for London and the South East might be personally beneficial, but not Scotland.

I am not attached to the idea of GB as a Great Power Punching Above Its Weight so I don't care if we get thrown off the security council or out of the G8 or whatever. I reject as unwanted brain implants concerns about the currency or how much debt/oil/nuclear weapons the Scots inherit.

I am curious to see what political culture would emerge in an independent Scotland. Maybe it will be toxic, incompetent and corrupt or loony left, spendthrift and headed quickly for the buffers and the tender mercies of the IMF.

Overall, I forecast defeat for the Yes campaign, based on the stupidity and pointlessness of the project. A last minute pro-UK blitz by senior English Conservatives might swing it the other way though.

 

[LondonJohn]

Just dipping in to this now and again as a South East Briton with no Scottish roots, I am having trouble deciding what I think and also what (if anything) I should think. In general, I am against nationalism but that cancels out here as both sides are nationalist in one way or another. I doubt Scottish independence will make much difference to me personally. I mean fiscally. Actually, if anything, it is probably good for me for the Tories to have a permanent majority in E & W except that their track record suggests they sink into abject corruption if left in office too long. Independence for London and the South East might be personally beneficial, but not Scotland.

I am not attached to the idea of GB as a Great Power Punching Above Its Weight so I don't care if we get thrown off the security council or out of the G8 or whatever. I reject as unwanted brain implants concerns about the currency or how much debt/oil/nuclear weapons the Scots inherit.

I am curious to see what political culture would emerge in an independent Scotland. Maybe it will be toxic, incompetent and corrupt or loony left, spendthrift and headed quickly for the buffers and the tender mercies of the IMF.

Overall, I forecast defeat for the Yes campaign, based on the stupidity and pointlessness of the project. A last minute pro-UK blitz by senior English Conservatives might swing it the other way though.

I share your overarching view - I too am somewhat ambivalent to the outcome, but I intellectually believe that Scottish independence would, on balance, be a negative move for Scotland and for the remainder of the UK (save, of course, for on an emotional, nationalistic, "we want our country back" level - and if that's more important to Scottish voters than the raw economic/political/societal outcome, then that's for them to decide).

However, I am interested (and disappointed) by the levels of polemic, hyperbole, disinformation and poor intellect on display in the debate. To my eyes, most of the worst offenders are on the "Yes" side of the debate - both in general and on this thread in particular. I'm therefore interested in pointing out (and correcting if possible) some of the worst examples of this sort of thing. It could all get much more interesting - and much more volatile - in the run-up to September 18th.....

 

[Craig B]

And how's this for an interesting insight into "Reverend" Stu Campbell's mentality and stability (caution, contains a litany of expletives, most of them courtesy of the "Reverend"):

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...-terrible-Metal-Slug-feature-reviewed!/page23

Even though the following paragraph was written for effect, it is still (in my opinion) extraordinarily crass, insensitive and unpleasant:




I wonder if many of those championing Campbell for his pro-independence lobbying are aware how obnoxious, unpleasant, immature and provocative he can be? Or do most of them choose to overlook this on account of the fact that he's "in their side".....?

What is this about? Are you suggesting that this is part of the discourse between Yes and No supporters in the referendum campaign?

 

[LondonJohn]

What is this about? Are you suggesting that this is part of the discourse between Yes and No supporters in the referendum campaign?

I'm suggesting that it gives an insight into the intellect, maturity and credibility of a high-profile yes cyber-campaigner - one whom many here (one in particular...) appear to champion.

Incidentally, here's the "Reverend's" (any idea why he call himself that?) conclusion and prediction in that unpleasant (and racist) piece that I linked to earlier regarding the 2010 General Election results, written a couple of days after the election:

And the outcome of it all? We're almost certainly going to have to do the whole thing all over again inside six months, with no guarantee of it turning out any less of a farce. How in the world has a nation of intelligent people, admired across the globe, managed to contrive such a godawful mess?

How stunningly correct and prescient he was in his analysis. Oh, wait.........

 

[Craig B]

Incidentally, here's the "Reverend's" (any idea why he call himself that?) conclusion and prediction in that unpleasant (and racist) piece that I linked to earlier regarding the 2010 General Election results, written a couple of days after the election:

And the outcome of it all? We're almost certainly going to have to do the whole thing all over again inside six months, with no guarantee of it turning out any less of a farce. How in the world has a nation of intelligent people, admired across the globe, managed to contrive such a godawful mess?

How stunningly correct and prescient he was in his analysis. Oh, wait.........

Could you cite the racist passage you refer to, so that we can examine it?

 

[LondonJohn]

Could you cite the racist passage you refer to, so that we can examine it?

1. THE WELSH ARE SNIVELLING, FORELOCK-TUGGING WRETCHES

2. THE SCOTTISH ARE CRINGING, PITIFUL SCUM

3. THE ENGLISH ARE WHIMPERING, SPINELESS COWARDS

4. THE NORTHERN IRISH ARE POTATO-BRAINED HALFWITS


I particularly like the reference to potatoes in the NI one. Classy.

You see, when you denigrate an entire group of people in this sort of way, it's called racist (under its broader definition of ethnicity/nationality).

PS: Aside from your cherry-picking of one issue within that post of mine, how about we also examine "Reverend" Campbell's stunning ineptitude in political analysis, with particular regard to how it might affect his credibility in his writings on the referendum?

PPS: Do you have any idea why he styles himself "Reverend"? Is he perhaps an ordained religious minister? Or is it an odd affectation?

PPPS: Just for comparison, TV presenter Anne Robinson was called before a parliamentary select committee to explain comments which were branded racist: she had referred to the Welsh as "irritating and annoying".

 

[Rolfe]

Fascinating to watch this campaign of smear and vilification of Stu Campbell start with just one man, his "creepy stalker" known as Longshanker, Ergasiophobe and AhDinnaeKen, in various forums. Then it gets picked up by a small bunch of nasty unionist trolls trying to persuade undecideds not to look at Wings. The bunch of nasty unionist trolls gets bigger and they're joined by some wet-nats who seem to be motivated by jealousy over the success of Wings. It starts to be repeated by people who aren't quite in the knuckle-dragging mouth-breathing category, and over the past few days it's been taken up by unionist politicians with some relish.

Then Euan McColm of the Scotsman, who is also a nasty Twitter troll, printed it in an article in the Scotsman. Now Stu has gone to the Press Complaints Commission and the Scotsman has received a lawyer's letter. They took down their article with no comment or apology, but it ain't going to end there.

Just for the record I've met Stuart Campbell and I like him a lot. He's extremely good company. I don't agree with everything he says, which is hardly cause for remark, but he's never expressed any opinion that would change my opinion of him as a person. (An opinion that includes the words "stubborn as a mule" and "bloody-minded" mind you.)

Rolfe.