Quantum Field Theory: The Woo Stops Here

[Ed Glosser]

In what ways are your anecdotal ghost stories "concrete, empirical, practical, objective, congruent, fruitful, and luminous evidence"?

I am not discarding your "...experiences of reality...". I am waiting for you to provide concrete, empirical, practical, objective, congruent, fruitful, and luminous evidence of anything that does not fit within the standard model.

Like I said, I respect your position on this. I'm sure you've studied what us woos call the evidence and come to a different conclusion. I respect that.

I will, however, venture to wager a batch of home-made chewy chocolate chocolate chip oatmeal cookies against whatever you care to risk that whatever is living there, if it does, in fact, exist, it can, in fact, be detected.

Come on! I'm trying to lose weight here! Don't start talking to me about cookies. You bastard.

 

[Ed Glosser]

It is charming that you think this is a secret.
<3

It's charming that you think that I think it's a secret.

 

[abaddon]

Like I said, I respect your position on this. I'm sure you've studied what us woos call the evidence and come to a different conclusion. I respect that.

What is it that "you woos" call evidence?

What is it evidence for?

What conclusions did you reach?

 

[Ed Glosser]

Everyone experiences things they can't explain. The proper method to dealing with that is finding an explanation that fits with what we know about reality. If you can't do that, you might just not be smart enough. Or it didn't happen as you remember.

I know that feeling stupid or wrong aren't things anyone wants, but we are stupid, and we're often wrong. Fitting "magic" into those events we can't explain doesn't change that. In fact, it prevents changing that. Belief in the supernatural keeps people stupid and wrong.

People do keep telling me I'm stupid. It's quite hurtful. Well, I don't have to tell you what that's like!

I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. Thank you for your insightful of cumments.

 

[Ed Glosser]

As I put it in another thread, if you have an iPhone, you literally have no soul.

Finally something we can agree on!

 

[Ed Glosser]

Personally, I'm not convinced that there's "no supernatural," myself. I simply see little reason to accept that "supernatural" things actually are the case.

You've got my attention. Why aren't you convinced there's no supernatural?

 

[Ed Glosser]

If you can't detect it, why would you think it exists?

I'm sorry, I don't have time to go back and I don't remember what the original quote was in reference to.

Could we just say you won?

 

[Ed Glosser]

The key to be a happy well adjusted individual is to understand what part of your truth is just wishful thinking. And then you can appreciate how lucky you are that all the parts of physics came together and allowed you human consciousness. Not only are you conscious but you are the highest level we know about. My golden retrievers were happy but not as happy as I am. You don't need woo to believe the universe is wonderful.

Very inspiring. Thank you.

 

[PixyMisa]

Maybe I'm using the wrong word here. What I mean is, things happen in a person's life and, simultaneously, planets are in certain positions. Sorry if I made it sound like something else.

But there's no correlation.

The cause, then, is the same thing that caused everything to happen and to play out the way it has, does and will. I guess this is called Deism, if anyone wants to be picky and label things.

But there's no correlation.

What, then, would the planets and their positions actually have to do with our daily doings?

There is no correlation. It's not just that astrology is impossible. It also doesn't work. In any way whatsoever.

 

[PixyMisa]

We'll just have to disagree to agree.

That would suggest our positions are equivalent. They're not, in two very important ways.

First, my position is based on the systematic evaluation and testing of hypotheses against objective evidence - in other words, science. Your position is based on uninformed guesswork.

Second, I am right and you are wrong.

 

[Ed Glosser]

Whatever you experience, its interpretation takes place in your brain and the conclusion you come to is based on the information and ideas your brain already contains, isn't it?

No, I don't think it is, actually. When I was 25 I was an atheist, living in one of the most secularized nations on Earth. There was nothing there to prompt an investigation into the paranormal, no other incitament than the opportunity of being regarded as a crackpot, and no other engine propelling that journey than the distant rumbling of some slumbering part of my true self.

If any of the explanations you decide on comes under a heading of 'woo - not possible', then it should temporarily be put under the 'don't know' heading until further notice

That won't be necessary. I've found all the evidence I need. What I'm doing now is trying to understand how it relates to scientific truths. Unlike creationists, and other cranks, I don't ignore science, but I need to understand how it connects with the soul.

I've looked at the lot - palmistry, astrology, revisionist history, flying saucers, etc but always with the question 'Is this TRUE?' running alongside my reading. A couple of things took a time to rationalise, but when I learnt about how cold reading and memory work, then the very small question mark was no longer needed.

I have the same question running alongside me when my girlfriend watches "reality" shows. That question mark you couldn't see with a nanoscope.

 

[PixyMisa]

People do keep telling me I'm stupid. It's quite hurtful. Well, I don't have to tell you what that's like!

I'm sorry. I'm just kidding. Thank you for your insightful of cumments.

It's very important to remember that we're all stupid, that our minds play tricks on us, that our senses and memories are unreliable.

To give you an idea of the scale of the problem, here's a list of some of the more common and better-understood flaws in human reasoning:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

We have to constantly be on guard against these problems to make progress. That's what science is all about.

 

[Ed Glosser]

I don't have time to await your particular gotcha among the plethora of gotcha's.

Put up your flavour of gotcha, you are at risk of becoming yet another woo claimant. Whatever it is that you believe, post it or forever hold your piece. It is not up to anyone to guess what is on your mind.

Where did this come from? Yes, I do have an open mind about many things woo, based on personal experiences and studying the subject for some time. I believe in reincarnation, based on-- well, does it even matter?

I'm not outtagetcha!

 

[PixyMisa]

That won't be necessary. I've found all the evidence I need. What I'm doing now is trying to understand how it relates to scientific truths. Unlike creationists, and other cranks, I don't ignore science, but I need to understand how it connects with the soul.

Here's your problem: We know that souls cannot possibly exist. You can never relate your position to scientific truths, because it is not a scientific position.

What you need to do is re-evaluate the evidence that led you to your belief, using proper scientific methods. Are you willing to do that?

 

[Aridas]

You've got my attention. Why aren't you convinced there's no supernatural?

Naturally, that's what catches your eye. A number of things, in short, none of which, either individually or combined, make a decent case that there actually is anything supernatural. As a general rule, though, I'm quite conservative with my conclusions and there are very few things that I'm firmly convinced about, especially when it comes to unfalsifiable propositions. For example, I don't say that young earth creationism, in general, was not the case, but I do very much say that the arguments for it being the case, that I've seen, are incredibly bad. As a rule, I can also say that the arguments that I've seen show off incredible ignorance and/or dishonesty, regarding either of or both of logic and science. I do say that, given this, it is not reasonable to accept young earth creationism, in general, as the case.

Does that clarify things at all?

 

[PixyMisa]

Where did this come from? Yes, I do have an open mind about many things woo, based on personal experiences and studying the subject for some time. I believe in reincarnation, based on-- well, does it even matter?

Yes, it matters. That's the whole reason this forum exists.

 

[Ed Glosser]

What is it that "you woos" call evidence?

What is it evidence for?

What conclusions did you reach?

You got me there, to a degree. I shouldn't propose to speak for anyone but myself. That was wrong.

To answer your questions:

1. Parapsychological studies and personal (anecdotal) evidence
2. Life after death and the recycling of souls; ESP comes with the territory
3. That there is purpose in life and that death is nothing to fear

 

[Ed Glosser]

But there's no correlation.

It's not just that astrology is impossible. It also doesn't work. In any way whatsoever.

Well, there's no consistent correlation, I guess, but there's movement of planets and there's actions and events concerning humans on earth, and they take place at the same time. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, I'm crazy, but do you see what I'm getting at?

You look at the Mona Lisa at the Louvre, get a sudden premonition, and call your friend and tell her that her runaway dog is coming back in twenty minutes, which it does. What was the connection between the Mona Lisa and the dog coming back? Was there even one?

 

[Ed Glosser]

That would suggest our positions are equivalent. They're not, in two very important ways.

First, my position is based on the systematic evaluation and testing of hypotheses against objective evidence - in other words, science. Your position is based on uninformed guesswork.

Second, I am right and you are wrong.

How does disagreeing to agree suggest our positions are equivalent? Are you going Wolfgang Pauli on me and saying I'm not even wrong?

 

[Aridas]

3. That there is purpose in life and that death is nothing to fear

For the record... reaching these conclusions does not require the supernatural to be the case in the slightest.

Purpose, by its nature, is assigned. Whether it's assigned by oneself or someone or something else is irrelevant at that level. The arguments that it's both better and more meaningful when assigned by oneself tend to be better, though. More can certainly be said on that tangent, but I'm a bit tired at this part of the day, generally speaking.

As for death being nothing to fear? That we fear it instinctively has much to do with nature and evolution, by the look of it. As sentient beings, we seem to be able to overcome our base instincts, though, and understand numerous things much more deeply.