First-grader suspended for turning in toy gun at school

[Safe-Keeper]

I recognize this kind of rigid adherence to the rules from when I was a high school student for three years in Houston. "You broke the rules, you have to be punished. Period". No lenience, no mitigating circumstances. Break the rules by accident? Come clean yourself with the intent to get square? No actual harm done? Completely different circumstances than what the law was intended to counter? I don't care, you broke the rules, you're a bad person, you need to be punished.

This carries over to their justice system as well. Break United States law, and you're in serious trouble. In parts of the US, you risk going to jail for life for three instances of shoplifting. That's right, there are young people serving life sentences in the US, costing tax payers enormous amounts of money and adding to an overburdened prison system, for not rape, not murder, not being accessories to terrorist acts, but for shoplifting.

I've seen people on this very forum defend this practice, and it seems to often come down to the archaic and outdated view I mentioned above: that breaking rules in any way fully defines you as a criminal, a bad person, a threat and a burden that needs to be locked away from society. Of course, I can't generalize and say that all, or even most, of the "tough on crime" pack are like this, but it seems to me that a lot of them are, which also serves to explain both why there isn't more of a focus on rehabilitation in the US, and why some people don't even want to hear about the actual reasons for why crimes are committed.

Of course it's easy to write me off as a cranky foreigner, and it's all subjective whether the conservative US' approach is a good one; it all comes down to different cultures and mentalities. The question of whether it makes for a lawful and peaceful society in the long run, however, is purely objective -- and I strongly fear that it doesn't.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I use that method a lot. When the cop says I was speeding, I blithely inform them that I didn't know how fast I was going. Quite obviously, since I am a law abiding driver, had I known I was speeding, I would have slowed down.

Claiming that you don't know how fast you were going is equivalent to claiming that you don't know if you were following or breaking the law.

 

[marplots]

Claiming that you don't know how fast you were going is equivalent to claiming that you don't know if you were following or breaking the law.

It's almost as if part of attending school is knowing what is or isn't in our backpacks.

 

[marplots]

Under those circumstances the penalty would have been reasonable, but calling attention to his "sin" was foolish and self-harming. no reason to seek punishment.

I sometimes wonder if she knew she had herpes all along, and didn't tell me because she knew I'd break up with her.

 

[The Norseman]

It's almost as if part of attending school is knowing what is or isn't in our backpacks.

Yes, six year old children are evil and should be stopped!

Funny thing that the criminal justice system states clearly that six year old children cannot form the mens rea of crimes that require such. Just wait until he's seven and you can throw the book at him, though, so not all is lost.

 

[marplots]

Yes, six year old children are evil and should be stopped!

Funny thing that the criminal justice system states clearly that six year old children cannot form the mens rea of crimes that require such. Just wait until he's seven and you can throw the book at him, though, so not all is lost.

He demonstrated mens rea by bringing it to someone's attention. I think he did know he wasn't supposed to bring a gun (even a toy gun) to school. The nice side effect is that such a lesson can be shared across his peer group.

"Did you hear what happened to Johnny? I'm sure gonna check my backpack from now on." (Only in cool text speak.)

Of course, had he not been punished, a different lesson would have been passed along: pretend you didn't know and you'll get away with it.

 

[Octavo]

Of course, had he not been punished, a different lesson would have been passed along: pretend you didn't know and you'll get away with it.

That does not follow. Only if the teacher had found it in his backpack rather than him turning it in himself would that analogy work.

As it stands the lesson will likely be: if you find a toy gun in your backpack just keep quiet and hope the teacher doesn't find it. What a wonderful lesson in responsibility and honesty they've all learned. Yay.

 

[marplots]

That does not follow. Only if the teacher had found it in his backpack rather than him turning it in himself would that analogy work.

As it stands the lesson will likely be: if you find a toy gun in your backpack just keep quiet and hope the teacher doesn't find it. What a wonderful lesson in responsibility and honesty they've all learned. Yay.

Gee, I hope his parents had the good sense to tell him they are proud he did the right thing. But maybe not. Maybe the parents will reinforce the idea that one should dodge responsibility, keep quiet and hope you don't get caught.

I wonder which option will produce a better citizen?

 

[Doubt]

Also the school must be razed to the ground.

Nuke it from space....

 

[quadraginta]

How about that "these things are not acceptable at school?" Surely we apply a similar principle all the time when we dress appropriately for work or avoid F-bombs at grandma's house. Learning context appropriateness seems like a good thing to teach a kid.

<snip>

And in this particular context the kid learned that the most appropriate thing would have been to shut up and not get pounded.

("No, Granma. That wasn't me. It must have been the dog that farted.")

 

[newyorkguy]

I hope his parents had the good sense to tell him they are proud he did the right thing. But maybe not. Maybe the parents will reinforce the idea that one should dodge responsibility...

You sound like a parent.

Btw I read a followup article about this story. In the story they quoted the kid as saying he was already "getting tired" of everyone asking him about the incident. Okay!

 

[Totovader]

He demonstrated mens rea by bringing it to someone's attention. I think he did know he wasn't supposed to bring a gun (even a toy gun) to school. The nice side effect is that such a lesson can be shared across his peer group.

"Did you hear what happened to Johnny? I'm sure gonna check my backpack from now on." (Only in cool text speak.)

Of course, had he not been punished, a different lesson would have been passed along: pretend you didn't know and you'll get away with it.

The lesson shared across his peer group is that there is no clear line between doing the right thing and being punished for it.

Consider the case where one of his classmates accidentally brings a real gun to school... instead of turning it in, he now has to hide it all day long or ditch it- leaving it for someone else to find.

There's a reason zero tolerance is criticized: when policies replace reason, it makes it impossible to follow real principles. (no pun intended)

I'm reminded of the insight that Hannnah Arendt provided in response to this "we just follow the policy" nonsense. Take away an individuals ability to think: that's evil.

 

[The Norseman]

He demonstrated mens rea by bringing it to someone's attention.

Sorry, no, that's not how it works.

I think he did know he wasn't supposed to bring a gun (even a toy gun) to school. The nice side effect is that such a lesson can be shared across his peer group.

"Did you hear what happened to Johnny? I'm sure gonna check my backpack from now on." (Only in cool text speak.)

Why do all of your examples never sound like a six year old?

Of course, had he not been punished, a different lesson would have been passed along: pretend you didn't know and you'll get away with it.

Again, such certainty with no evidence to demonstrate why your way would be the outcome.

 

[newyorkguy]

I suspect most of the kids in the New Kensington PA elementary school probably see both sides of this. The boy turned in the toy gun he brought to school by mistake but the rules apparently do not allow for any exceptions. If you bring any kind of gun -- real or imaginary -- into the school building and it is discovered you get suspended.

In fact I often find kids see things more clearly than adults do. They don't get as caught up in some of the emotionalism that surround these issues. In fact the kid who was suspended reportedly complained, "Are people going to be asking me about this for the next forty-five years?"

 

[quadraginta]

He demonstrated mens rea by bringing it to someone's attention. I think he did know he wasn't supposed to bring a gun (even a toy gun) to school. The nice side effect is that such a lesson can be shared across his peer group.

Nope. He didn't. He would have had to be aware that there was a gun in his pack when he brought it into the school, and done it anyway..

Mens Rea has to accompany actus reus.

What he did was demonstrate a respect for authority, obedience to the rules, and a sense of confidence that the people in charge would act sensibly.

Lot of good that did him.

"Did you hear what happened to Johnny? I'm sure gonna check my backpack from now on." (Only in cool text speak.)

Of course, had he not been punished, a different lesson would have been passed along: pretend you didn't know and you'll get away with it.

A different teaching moment would have been to show his peers that it was safe to abide by the rules and act responsibly.

 

[quadraginta]

Gee, I hope his parents had the good sense to tell him they are proud he did the right thing. But maybe not.

Doing the right thing was shown to be a patsy's move.

Maybe the parents will reinforce the idea that one should dodge responsibility, keep quiet and hope you don't get caught.

It seems that would teach him more about reality. At this point if they don't he'll know they are lying to him.

I wonder which option will produce a better citizen?

Or a more pragmatic one.

 

[quadraginta]

I suspect most of the kids in the New Kensington PA elementary school probably see both sides of this. The boy turned in the toy gun he brought to school by mistake but the rules apparently do not allow for any exceptions. If you bring any kind of gun -- real or imaginary -- into the school building and it is discovered you get suspended.

In fact I often find kids see things more clearly than adults do. They don't get as caught up in some of the emotionalism that surround these issues. In fact the kid who was suspended reportedly complained, "Are people going to be asking me about this for the next forty-five years?"

They're certainly will now. A bunch of double-talk about ZTP and responsibility isn't going to be very persuasive anymore. They know what happens in real life.

 

[marplots]

The lesson shared across his peer group is that there is no clear line between doing the right thing and being punished for it.

He wasn't punished for doing the right thing, he was punished for having a toy gun at school.

There's a reason zero tolerance is criticized: when policies replace reason, it makes it impossible to follow real principles. (no pun intended)

I'm reminded of the insight that Hannnah Arendt provided in response to this "we just follow the policy" nonsense. Take away an individuals ability to think: that's evil.

Best critique of the situation yet.

 

[marplots]

Why do all of your examples never sound like a six year old?

Cause I turned 8 last week and I've matured some.

 

[marplots]

Doing the right thing was shown to be a patsy's move.

This seems to be a theme in the thread. It saddens me to think that honesty, responsibility and virtue are so easily dismissed in favor of "what's best for me?"

Here's an idea. We should do the right thing, even if we are embedded in a system which doesn't. Virtue should be its own reward. I see a value in this and I hope the kid does as well.

The focus on "what can I get away with" seems to me like the kind of cold calculation a sociopath might do. We are better than that and we should expect others to self regulate as well, even when it is painful to do so.