Dowsing by a Skeptic

[Slowvehicle]

People seem to like the word believe a lot here. I hate the word. I believe in nothing. Belief only possible in the absence of Knowledge, in other words when you don't know, and if you don't know then what's the point ?

1. Lighten up, Francis. I was indulging in my penchant for situational humor. (see the post to which I was responding)

2. You believe you can dowse. Without evidence, well, cool story, bro.

(I wonder what you believe are the forces and effects involved? I wonder how you beleive you have accounted for ideomotor effect? I wonder how many tests you beleive "countless tiems" entials?)

 

[Pixel42]

Read the entire thread and you will see why I can demonstrate it to you in person. It most probably would fail a scientific test.

Just to be clear: we all know that dowsing "works" in the sense that the rods/pendulum move without being consciously directed, and are perceived by the dowser to indicate whatever it is he/she is dowsing. What scientific testing shows is that it does not work in the sense that it can correctly identify what is being dowsed for more often than would be expected by chance. That perception has been shown to be erroneous.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You are quite right, I know nothing about the proper protocol. It was a spur of the moment video made to show my friends

How do you intend to repair this woeful state of affairs? Do you even understand why your "tests" should be double-blinded?

 

[SaskMick]

Please source that quote. It's mostly on pro-dowsing websites, so I'm doubtful of its authenticity or its context. In any case, it's at most an appeal to authority. Einstein was not an expert on this topic.

Having said that, I am not worried at all about "being shown that dowsing does indeed work."

It doesn't, and I am not worried. Many, many properly done tests have demonstrated over the years that dowsing doesn't work. Many tests have shown that dowsers are deluded in believing it works, and that it fails in properly blinded tests.

Are you the first dowser to show otherwise? Let's see.

It is mostly on dowsing websites. Hardly surprising though as he talks about dowsing.

I got it from here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-lancashire/plain/A3373175

 

[Slowvehicle]

Far ?

The rods are not precision instruments, they are nothing more than a visual indicator.

You are "far from the first" to believe you can dowse. Others, many, many,many others, have shred your belief in their own abilities to dowse.

 

[AdMan]

It is mostly on dowsing websites. Hardly surprising though as he talks about dowsing.

I got it from here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-lancashire/plain/A3373175

Yes, so how was your post not an appeal to authority? How was Einstein an expert on dowsing?

Do you know much about logical fallacies?

 

[Slowvehicle]

As an ex uber skeptic I can only assume that you are worried of being shown that dowsing does indeed work.

In other words, you believe that the only reason a person would fail to rush to your house to watch you not be able to dowse under controlled conditions is that they are worried about whether an "ability" that has never been demonstrated under controlled conditions might be demonstrated at your house?

Here's my counter-offer: You come to my house,and show meaht you believe you can do. Or are you worried it might not work under controlled conditions?

 

[SaskMick]

1. Lighten up, Francis. I was indulging in my penchant for situational humor. (see the post to which I was responding)

2. You believe you can dowse. Without evidence, well, cool story, bro.

(I wonder what you believe are the forces and effects involved? I wonder how you beleive you have accounted for ideomotor effect? I wonder how many tests you beleive "countless tiems" entials?)

How the rods move is not important, it's what they find that is.

You may believe I believe, but that's because you are a believer

I'm off to bed. When you go I wish you sweet dreams

 

[AdMan]

How the rods move is not important, it's what they find that is.

You may believe I believe, but that's because you are a believer

I'm off to bed. When you go I wish you sweet dreams

Sweet dreams. And go back to your supposed "skeptic" roots to find some grounding for your claims. Otherwise you won't find much support here.

 

[Slowvehicle]

What he describes is exactly what happened to me. One day I suddenly found that I had the intuition. I don't know where I got it from exactly, ( the quote ) but it was from a dowsing website.

It's not really that important as in the next quote he does mention the word dowsing, and that he thinks it's not BS.

...except that the "quote" you believe is attributable to Einstein has yet to be traced to an actual source.

http://doubtfulnews.com/2012/09/dowsers-quote-einstein-in-worthless-appeal-for-legitimacy/

 

[AdMan]

Read the entire thread and you will see why I can demonstrate it to you in person. It most probably would fail a scientific test.

It's not clear to me from your posts why this would be.

Unless it's simply not a real phenomenon.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Read the entire thread and you will see why I can demonstrate it to you in person. It most probably would fail a scientific test.

What do you believe is the reason for this?

Are you pulling the old, "It doesn't work in the presence of negative vibes" dodge?

If it cannot be demonstrated to work under controlled conditions,well...cool story bro.

 

[SaskMick]

In other words, you believe that the only reason a person would fail to rush to your house to watch you not be able to dowse under controlled conditions is that they are worried about whether an "ability" that has never been demonstrated under controlled conditions might be demonstrated at your house?

Here's my counter-offer: You come to my house,and show meaht you believe you can do. Or are you worried it might not work under controlled conditions?

This is my last post tonight.


I will try to explain again. The rods are only a visual indicator. It is the dowser that does the dowsing, not the rods. I have discovered that dowsing does not work when I have just woken up, or when I am tired. It also does not work when I am not relaxed. I doubt I would feel relaxed when being subjected to controlled conditions.

That's just the way it is. But I can show you !

Good night

 

[AdMan]

This is my last post tonight.


I will try to explain again. The rods are only a visual indicator. It is the dowser that does the dowsing, not the rods. I have discovered that dowsing does not work when I have just woken up, or when I am tired. It also does not work when I am not relaxed. I doubt I would feel relaxed when being subjected to controlled conditions.

That's just the way it is. But I can show you !

Good night

Excuses, excuses...

Believe it or not, we've heard them all before!

 

[Slowvehicle]

Read the entire thread and you will see why I can demonstrate it to you in person. It most probably would fail a scientific test.

Wait. In between 10:45 and 11:02, did you "read the entire post"?

Why not simply explain why you believe that something that cannot be demonstrated under controlled conditions is an actual "ability"?

Are you posting from Michigan?

 

[Slowvehicle]

It is mostly on dowsing websites. Hardly surprising though as he talks about dowsing.

I got it from here... http://news.bbc.co.uk/dna/place-lancashire/plain/A3373175

In other words, you believe the quote to be authentic, even though the original, primary source cannot be identified.

(NTM, even if ol' Albert had said that very thing, for reals, how does an appeal to authority help your story?)

 

[AdMan]

I will try to explain again. The rods are only a visual indicator. It is the dowser that does the dowsing, not the rods. I have discovered that dowsing does not work when I have just woken up, or when I am tired. It also does not work when I am not relaxed. I doubt I would feel relaxed when being subjected to controlled conditions.

That's just the way it is. But I can show you !

Yeah, right. Admit it--you were never really a skeptic.

Try displaying a bit of critical thinking.

 

[Pixel42]

I have discovered that dowsing does not work when I have just woken up, or when I am tired. It also does not work when I am not relaxed. I doubt I would feel relaxed when being subjected to controlled conditions.

The only way you can find out if dowsing works is to do a test under controlled conditions. You don't need to have anyone there (although you'd need someone to help you set it up), you can wait until you're completely relaxed before doing it. But until you have done such a test you yourself will not know whether dowsing works, all you have is the perception that it works. That perception may be mistaken.

 

[Slowvehicle]

How the rods move is not important, it's what they find that is.

Nonsense. If there is no possible effect, or force, or interaction "driving" the rods, well, cool story, bro.

You may believe I believe, but that's because you are a believer

I'm off to bed. When you go I wish you sweet dreams

Actually, a lexofile, but I do believe you believe what you say.

The term, "believer", however, has a particular connotation, whether you believe it does or not; and I, personally, reject the sobriquet for that very reason.

Good night, SaskMick.

Edited by Locknar: 

Please do not alter members names in such a manner that they could be viewed as insulting and in breach of rule 0.

 

[Slowvehicle]

This is my last post tonight.

I thought you went to bed?

I will try to explain again.

Do you believe that you need to? I am convinced that I understand the claim you are making. WHere we differ is not in the clarity of you rexplanation, but the quality of your evidence. However,feel free to continue.

The rods are only a visual indicator.

ANd, as such, they are either moving under the influence of a measurable, detectable, comprehensible force or effect that fits within our lepto-baryonic universe; or, you are moving the rods yourself. I though tyou said you understood the ideomotoer effect?

It is the dowser that does the dowsing, not the rods.

And how do you believe you are divining the materials you claim?

I have discovered that dowsing does not work when I have just woken up, or when I am tired. It also does not work when I am not relaxed. I doubt I would feel relaxed when being subjected to controlled conditions.

That's just the way it is. But I can show you !

And, of course, if you come to my demesne and are (predictable) unable to demosntrate the ability you believe you have, under controlled conditions, it will not be because you do not, in fact, have a non-existent ability, but will instead be my fault for "stressing" you. Or "doubting" you. Or setting up the test on the east slope of a mountain, or too near a church, or too far from a church...

Same old, same old.

Good night

Goodnight again, SaskMick.