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Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Curbing GHG emissions and increasing CO2 capture, of course.

well i don't argue that geoengineering is a better solution than reducing CO2 emissions. Because i don't think it is.

in the seatbelt analogy i see us driving towards a tree. and our solution is slowdown (reductions of CO2 emissions) and change direction (CO2 neutral energy ) so we don't hit that tree. but sofar we try to not further accelerate towards the tree and slowly turn the steering a little bit.
and i feel like we don't have any seatbelts. and i'd like to have seatbelts, and in the case we need them, id like them to be good and tested seatbelts.

i don't say, keep speeding towards the tree because we got seatbelts.
 
well i don't argue that geoengineering is a better solution than reducing CO2 emissions. Because i don't think it is.

in the seatbelt analogy i see us driving towards a tree. and our solution is slowdown (reductions of CO2 emissions) and change direction (CO2 neutral energy ) so we don't hit that tree. but sofar we try to not further accelerate towards the tree and slowly turn the steering a little bit.
and i feel like we don't have any seatbelts. and i'd like to have seatbelts, and in the case we need them, id like them to be good and tested seatbelts.

i don't say, keep speeding towards the tree because we got seatbelts.

I agree. But take the video more as a promotional piece than an educational one.

I've looked in the TEDx site for the transcript -so I could quote the guy without going back and forth with the flash thingy-, and the video is gone in their site. The guy says the stratosphere is 5 or 6 km over the surface (it's typically above 10 km everywhere but in the polar regions). Well, I don't want to say case closed, but you have to understand. Take a look at this article. With such money involved, I would expect to have more precision about what is "in the oven" now.

I also think that the global warming tragedy is a slow one. There's no tree to hit, so I hardly see a plausible scenario when we have to say: "all hands in the geoengineering deck, we have to act real quick".
 
So Hence, the drama.
So you did not read what you replied to or quoted. Hence the ignorance of what the cited papers are about (sea ice, not ice sheets)
Can we put all this ice ... sheet thing to a rest?
So can we have you read these papers about the sea ice and realize that sea ice is not ice sheets, aleCcowaN?

Of course the actual previous post in following previous post was
... and the former ice becomes salty water again :rolleyes: ...
so rather than the rather charitable "nothing" there is the inane demand for people to do calculations.
 
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I agree. But take the video more as a promotional piece than an educational one.

I've looked in the TEDx site for the transcript -so I could quote the guy without going back and forth with the flash thingy-, and the video is gone in their site. The guy says the stratosphere is 5 or 6 km over the surface (it's typically above 10 km everywhere but in the polar regions). Well, I don't want to say case closed, but you have to understand. Take a look at this article. With such money involved, I would expect to have more precision about what is "in the oven" now.

I also think that the global warming tragedy is a slow one. There's no tree to hit, so I hardly see a plausible scenario when we have to say: "all hands in the geoengineering deck, we have to act real quick".

i do take it as a promotional video for the idea that we should research geoengineering.

but as is said at the begining of the video, the ideal solution is a reduction in CO2 emissions.

http://www.murrayedwards.cam.ac.uk/exploring/environmentontheedge/eoe/geo

makes it even clearer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Earth_Challenge

top contenders are CO2 removal from the atmosphere.

i have no problem with those people financing research and promotion of such techniques. especially CO2 removal, i already accept this as a reality, this is already in the scenarios. we will be capturing CO2 from the atmosphere one way or another.

i am very well aware that there is money to be made. Also seatbelts are sold for a profit.

i do think to have a rough understanding of what the ideal solution to the problem would be. yet i am far more convinced that my idea is pretty far away from reality. and i prefer a more realistic aproach. and with that i find the irrational rant in your article very unconvincing, especially after i looked at what they are actually funding.
 
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Aquaculture being affected by Global Warming

The CSIRO has told a world aquaculture conference in Adelaide the industry already is facing challenges from climate change.
The fast-growing industry generates more than $1 billion annually for the Australian economy and CSIRO research scientist Alistair Hobday says aquaculture operators have been making a strong impression in the international marketplace.
"I think aquaculture operators in Australia are very sophisticated, they grow high-value products that go to international markets as well as our domestic markets and I think they're well set up for coping with these changes," he said.
But Dr Hobday says aquaculture operators will need to find ways to adapt to rising temperatures.
"We've seen cases around Australia where warming waters that have been unusually warm have led to declines in salmon production, have led to declining oxygen in tuna pens," he said.

The CSIRO says temperatures have risen by one degree Celsius in the past century in Australia, but by more than two degrees in the south-east and south-west of the nation.
It predicts a further rise of two to three degrees by 2050, a rate faster than for the rest of the world.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-09/aquaculture-industry-facing-challenges-climate-change/5509858

This is interesting to me from two aspects.

The obvious one is that we have research by the CSIRO showing that the warming we already have is enough to affect what is for us an important fish species.

The less obvious one is that most fish species aren't farmed. Dr Hobday believes the farmers will have to adapt their farming methods to cope with the already present and coming climate change. What do the rest of the species do?

http://www.csiro.au/Outcomes/Climat...ange-effects-on-marine-ecosystems-report.aspx
 
well i don't argue that geoengineering is a better solution than reducing CO2 emissions. Because i don't think it is.

in the seatbelt analogy i see us driving towards a tree. and our solution is slowdown (reductions of CO2 emissions) and change direction (CO2 neutral energy ) so we don't hit that tree. but sofar we try to not further accelerate towards the tree and slowly turn the steering a little bit.
and i feel like we don't have any seatbelts. and i'd like to have seatbelts, and in the case we need them, id like them to be good and tested seatbelts.

i don't say, keep speeding towards the tree because we got seatbelts.

If artificial ameliorations (engineered filters/offsets) are limited to being seen as a short-term extension of the time to implement adaptation due to an overshoot that we are actively and substantively engaged in addressing, ...which, I believe, is what you are stating, I agree.

Using such high-risk, potentially aggravating technologies to allow some private interests to continue to make profits by not paying for the problems that are the result of their profit earning activities. These are the crooked roots of the modern crony capitalists. The last time this type of excess happened in U.S. history, it spawned the greatest Republican development in the history of politics,...Progressivism!

(BTW, I realize that this post is more political than should generally be put in a science/technology themed board, but I'm still not 100% clear on the JREF forum policy with regards to AGW posts, is this general thread in the science discussion area supposed to be limited to general discussions of the scienceof climate change and the human forcing of such in the modern era?

If you feel that this post should more appropriately moved to its own thread in Politics or Politics USA, please report it and request that it be moved to its own thread in (under applicable general housekeeping rules/policies) the appropriate discussion forum (USA Politics?) so that we can properly discuss and engage on this topic in the appropriate forum for political (public policy) considerations and discussions.)
 
Focus on the "bio" part: Halving the two-step

(wait a minute isn't that combining two parts of a three-step?*)

Unusual Microbe Engineered to Convert Grass Into Gas
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/06/unusual-microbe-engineered-convert-grass-gas

Today, almost all ethanol—at least in the United States—comes from converting corn kernels into fuel. But because farming corn requires lots of energy and fertilizer, corn ethanol doesn't actually do much to reduce petroleum use or greenhouse gas emissions. Several companies are working to convert agricultural waste—known as cellulosic biomass—into ethanol. But they've had a hard time making it as cheaply as corn ethanol, because it's costly to break down biomass into sugars that microbes can ferment. Now, researchers in the United States have engineered a microbe that both breaks down cellulose into sugar and ferments it to produce ethanol...

...One ray of hope came with the discovery in the 1980s of microbes native to hot springs in Yellowstone National Park in the United States and elsewhere that are naturally able to break down the lignin in cellulosic biomass. These organisms don't make ethanol, but researchers hoped they could manipulate their genes to give them that ability. "If you start with organisms that can do the hard part, teaching them to make ethanol is relatively easy," says Janet Westpheling, a geneticist at the University of Georgia (UGA), Athens...

Engineering at its finest!




* "Ass, gas or grass: no one rides for free!" ironically apropos in the modern era.
 
New World Order

India riots sparked by heat wave, power outages
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/india-riots-sparked-by-heat-wave-power-outages-1.2668358
Police intervene as temperature rises to 47 C and crowd storms electricity substation
The impoverished state of Uttar Pradesh has never had enough power for its 200 million people — about the population of Brazil — and many receive only a few hours a day under normal conditions, while 63 per cent of homes have no access to electricity at all.

But recent temperatures that soared to 47 degrees Celsius (117 Fahrenheit) have caused power demand to spike at 11,000 megawatts — far higher than the state's 8,000 MW capacity — triggering blackouts that shut down fans, city water pumps and air conditioners.

...Thousands of people stormed an electricity substation Friday near the state capital of Lucknow, ransacking offices and taking several workers hostage for 18 hours until police intervened Saturday morning, state utility official Narendra Nath Mullick said.

...Elsewhere, an angry crowd set fire to an electricity substation in Gonda, 180 kilometres southeast of Lucknow. It took three hours for firefighters to put out the flames on Friday. Another substation was set on fire in Gorakhpur, 320 kilometres southeast of Lucknow.

Imagine Red(neck)istan (aka: bible belt USA) circa 2015!
 
Dude does his thang!

Dr. David Archer, University of Chicago
Meltwater Pulse 2B
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71l9lzLsBRc
Published on Jun 1, 2014
Independent videographer Peter Sinclair's 'This is Not Cool' video explores recent headline-grabbing research on Antarctic glacial melting, the first video produced under the name Yale Climate Connections, formerly The Yale Forum on Climate Change & The Media

Apocalyptic almost seems an understatement.

I wonder how much this is gonna cost?
 
A clear military perspective

NATO NEXT WAR For ENERGY? AFRICA: General Wesley Clark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv3pM4MZEHM

Energy independence,
economic and political independence
from undue influences
both abroad and
domestic.

Oil isn't the sole source of our problems
but it isn't the source of
any of our nation's
solutions for
the future.

Buck up campers
 
Economics: The Doctor is in! Middle Ground

You don't have to believe in Human forced climate change to accept sound conservative economic measures to deal with common front issues!

"Serious follow-up to the '10 principles'"
by the brilliant economist who brought you
“Mankiw’s 10 Principles of Economics, Translated”

http://www.standupeconomist.com/archived-8.6.09/clips/globalwarming.mp4
(download and save QuickTime player helps but any MP4 player will suffice - inferior version at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO4vKm6XomI)

Short version -both conservatives and progressives like carbon taxes!
 
If artificial ameliorations (engineered filters/offsets) are limited to being seen as a short-term extension of the time to implement adaptation due to an overshoot that we are actively and substantively engaged in addressing, ...which, I believe, is what you are stating, I agree.

Using such high-risk, potentially aggravating technologies to allow some private interests to continue to make profits by not paying for the problems that are the result of their profit earning activities. These are the crooked roots of the modern crony capitalists. The last time this type of excess happened in U.S. history, it spawned the greatest Republican development in the history of politics,...Progressivism!

(BTW, I realize that this post is more political than should generally be put in a science/technology themed board, but I'm still not 100% clear on the JREF forum policy with regards to AGW posts, is this general thread in the science discussion area supposed to be limited to general discussions of the scienceof climate change and the human forcing of such in the modern era?

If you feel that this post should more appropriately moved to its own thread in Politics or Politics USA, please report it and request that it be moved to its own thread in (under applicable general housekeeping rules/policies) the appropriate discussion forum (USA Politics?) so that we can properly discuss and engage on this topic in the appropriate forum for political (public policy) considerations and discussions.)

well i didn't advocate the use, i advocate the research.
and its partially political in the same sense that the IPCC stabilisation scenarios are political. Geoengineering (CO2 removal from the Atmosphere) is already in several scenarios.
and we are not even on track for those scenarios. we are on track with the business as usual scenario. (And that is ignoring the fact that Methane emission from fracking is much (10x+) larger than the industry claimed it to be.)
maybe the time has come to take a realistic look at this.



here the IPCC WGIII presents it's finding in a short presentation.
Ignoring CO2 Removal is ignoring reality.
 
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So you did not read what you replied to or quoted. Hence the ignorance of what the cited papers are about (sea ice, not ice sheets)

So can we have you read these papers about the sea ice and realize that sea ice is not ice sheets, aleCcowaN?

Of course the actual previous post in following previous post was

so rather than the rather charitable "nothing" there is the inane demand for people to do calculations.

So you still haven't read that post of mine :rolleyes:.

What makes you think I didn't read them? Not agreeing with you? or your choice of fabricating a story about what I did and what I meant by that? :rolleyes:

I even mocked one of your papers, if you didn't notice. Maybe the figures blurred your vision. :rolleyes:

Who do you think I am? r-j?

You seem to not understand a whole bunch of interconnected processes. For any practical purpose sea ice doesn't contribute to sea level rise. I already explain why, and I can explain further. Look at what you have done. You have linked to a page in a medium quality source showing pictures of how a big chunk of fresh water ice and coloured brine saltier than sea water -take a look to the flotation line- all at fusion temperature become expanded when melted and at room temperature. If warming at room temperature weren't enough, we can even place a couple of dominoes below the back legs of the table. The gain of volume is negligible for any global warming related purpose, even more if you take into account the intellectual level this thread has: garbage in as part of the input, garbage out as its exclusive cultural product.

What do you think? That melting glaciers on the Himalayas don't contribute to negligible additional sea level rise? Do you think that one cubic metre of fresh water coming to the Indian Ocean from the Himalayas through the Ganges-Brahmaputra will only contribute with one cubic metre to the sea volume? It'll suffer the same negligible changes of your sea ice, because that comes from being fresh water, not from being ice.

One million tons of fresh water per second is poured into the oceans and it all will show the same changes. One week of that matches a whole year in your petty little paper. Ahh! What you say? that evaporation from the ocean will complete the cycle and leave everything even? And why do you think the just-a-piss less of two cubic kilometres of sea level expanse a year that your little paper implies is going to do? Is it out of the cycles for any good reason?

In the end, what I told you, what I tell you, and what I will tell you again -and consider you to be singular or plural, as you wish- is that the precise "truth" that matters so much to you remains to be negligible and cut-out from the whole system, hence meaningless, because IT ONLY MATTERS THE SUM OF ALL PROCESSES INVOLVING SALINITY, AND THAT IS CALLED THE HALOSTERIC CONTRIBUTION TO SEE LEVEL RISE, AND THAT HAS BEEN BEING NEGATIVE FOR YEARS WITH A DOWNWARD TREND DOZEN OF TIMES STRONGER THAN THAT OBVIOUS ARTIFICIALLY ISOLATED REALITY SPOTTED BY THE TINY LITTLE PAPER YOU INSIST TO QUOTE.

I'm not looking for the Mr Congeniality prize, nor to be acknowledged as intelligent or scientist of whatever -so far it feels like to be pointed as the smartest kid with Down syndrome-. But you all have to understand when you contribute to the misunderstanding of our present global warming crisis, and yet you believe you're doing it for the good.
 
peer reviewed scientific papers atacked by all caps rant by someone not able to express himself without sounding like some wannabe mystic.

is there any scientific research that contradicts the sofar established fact that sea ice does indeed cause sea level rise?
 
i do think to have a rough understanding of what the ideal solution to the problem would be. yet i am far more convinced that my idea is pretty far away from reality. and i prefer a more realistic aproach. and with that i find the irrational rant in your article very unconvincing, especially after i looked at what they are actually funding.

Maybe I wasn't clear. That article wasn't meant to show geoengeenering as a danger nor a hope but merely to point the levels of funding these days -not what is exactly being founded-. My remark is that such level of funding seems not to match the level of spreading of their notions and projects. It looks like -looks- there's no much worth to be shown, and that's a pity.
 
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is there any scientific research that contradicts the sofar established fact that sea ice does indeed cause sea level rise?

Ummmm in the context of sea level rise engendered by AGW which IS the context of this thread.....melting sea ice has neglible effect.

Melting Arctic Sea Ice

Today, summer sea ice in the Arctic is about half as thick as it was in 1950. Just like an ice cube melting in a glass of water, melting Arctic sea ice does not contribute to sea-level rise, except by the expansion of seawater with heat.

http://www.eo.ucar.edu/basics/cc_2_b.html

It has other impacts in terms of albedo changes and salinity changes, the latter can modify the thermohaline circulation but as far as being any sort of a factor in sea level change to be considered that's a crock.

It's measureable
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18841-melting-icebergs-boost-sealevel-rise.html#.U5W1AMxmv3w
It's insignificant.
Move on.
 
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peer reviewed scientific papers atacked by all caps rant by someone not able to express himself without sounding like some wannabe mystic.

is there any scientific research that contradicts the sofar established fact that sea ice does indeed cause sea level rise?

Another one who didn't read this post and think he has something to contribute on the subject :rolleyes:.
 
Maybe I wasn't clear. That article wasn't meant to show geoengeenering as a danger nor a hope but merely to point the levels of funding these days -not what is exactly is being founded-. My remark is that such level of funding seems not to match the level of spreading of their notions and projects. It looks like -looks- there's no much worth to be shown, and that's a pity.

and the reason why i posted the video about geoengineering is because i find the argument he brought up against the irrational opposition to even researching geoengineering, like in the blog post you linked to, very convincing.

especially considering the ranting in your link, when you actually take a look at what those people they pointed out, are actually funding (mainly CO2 removal from the atmosphere) shows how irrational the ranting is.
 
Ummmm in the context of sea level rise engendered by AGW which IS the context of this thread.....melting sea ice has neglible effect.



http://www.eo.ucar.edu/basics/cc_2_b.html

It has other impacts in terms of albedo changes and salinity changes, the latter can modify the thermohaline circulation but as far as being any sort of a factor in sea level change to be considered that's a crock.

It's measureable
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18841-melting-icebergs-boost-sealevel-rise.html#.U5W1AMxmv3w
It's insignificant.
Move on.

i agree, it is totally insignificant. but still a believe many people have about sea ice that is a missconception.
 
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