Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

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Oh stop it Alec. It's ONE glacier in one month. Gets wearisome. I know probably better than you what the ice losses are so bug off.

The article gave a good visual ....something you appear not to comprehend the importance of....a mountain range of ice.
One glacier out of 53, one month.

Go argue with the author......see how you do. :rolleyes:

•••

Another big number

Saving trees in tropics could cut emissions by one-fifth, study shows
Date:
June 6, 2014
Source:
University of Edinburgh

Reducing deforestation in the tropics would significantly cut the amount of carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere -- by as much as one-fifth -- research shows. In the first study of its kind, scientists have calculated the amount of carbon absorbed by the world's tropical forests and the amounts of greenhouse gas emissions created by loss of trees, as a result of human activity.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140606091644.htm
 
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Gets wearisome. I know probably better than you what the ice losses are so bug off.

Lacks of data and linking that piece of ... blog say otherwise. So please don't "retweet" things like that without a sceptical inspection first.

It's just one glacier of many thousands -not 57-, however

Jakobshavn Glacier drains 6.5% of the Greenland ice sheet[1] and produces around 10% of all Greenland icebergs. Some 35 billion tonnes of icebergs (35 cubic kilometres) calve off and pass out of the fjord every year. Icebergs breaking from the glacier are often so large (up to a kilometer in height) that they are too tall to float down the fjord and lie stuck on the bottom of its shallower areas, sometimes for years, until they are broken up by the force of the glacier and icebergs further up the fjord. Studied for over 250 years, Jakobshavn Glacier has helped develop our understanding of climate change and icecap glaciology.[4][5]
Source: Wiki / text in red mine, not in original

In three months I will ask you how much additional ice has joined those amazing 10 cubic kilometres. If the answer is less than 10, your article was just describing "the usual".

Why don't you just say "people need to be reminded through striking news that global warming continues to happen every day, otherwise they become accustomed to and they won't feel any need of change". I may agree but, is this the right place to do that?

You can't ask anybody to constantly turn off their scepticism in a sceptical forum any time you might feel the masses need to be reminded. Scepticism drives in the right posters and out the undesirable ones.
 
The expected answer is the root of every answer in this topic, so, if you fail at it, you're just being throwing leaves and telling you had the tree. Failing to detect that is serious enough.
Noobs can't post urls on this forum. But I may be a layman in climate science, I am still a very foxy froggy Papy.

So I bet on the figure page 5 on this report from the Met Office :
part_1_Our_Changing_Climate.pdf

And this time it's very serious so I'm all in.
 
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Noobs can't post urls on this forum. But I may be a layman in climate science, I am still a very foxy froggy Papy.

So I bet on the figure page 5 on this report from the Met Office :
part_1_Our_Changing_Climate.pdf

And this time it's very serious so I'm all in.

No, this time. It's not Ocean Heat Content Change.

A hint:

The questions are right but the data in them can be quite right or dead wrong. And it's more of a question of "-A is A and B is B -So what? C continue to be C".

The answers don't contain anything new. However they lay out a hierarchical structure of causes, consequences and feedbacks that gives away the trickery of denialism in a clearer way: denialists haven't succeeded in proving wrong any cause or consequence, but they've been extremely instrumental in numbing social action by hiding all the connexions and blurry people's perceptions.
 
Knock it off with games, Alec. Seriously. You're not an educator administering a test; we're not your pupils. What you're doing is just... annoying.
 
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How Does Air Pollution Affect Clouds?
The answer could help clarify how warm climate change might get

Jun 6, 2014 |By Gayathri Vaidyanathan and ClimateWire |

Few clouds used to populate our skies before the Industrial Revolution, and pollutants spewed by factories since then have vastly increased the cloudiness of our atmosphere.

Deadening calm fills the Horse Latitudes, where there's ocean, sky and little else. A satellite peers down, capturing wisps of cloud, counting particles suspended in the air, measuring rainfall and monitoring weather.

There is little wind. These latitudes, between 30 and 35 degrees away from the equator, are so calm that Spanish sailors in the 17th century could not move their heavily laden ships, or so the legend goes. So, the sailors dumped their cargo—horses—into the subtropical ocean and heaved on. But they left the place with a name: Horse Latitudes.

These windless tracts have yielded a new hypothesis relevant to climate science: Few clouds may have populated our skies before the Industrial Revolution, and pollutants spewed by factories since then may have vastly increased the cloudiness of our atmosphere. The results were published yesterday in the journal Science.

The finding cuts to the heart of uncertainty contained in climate models today. Most scientists agree that humans are releasing massive quantities of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and causing global temperatures to rise. But they disagree on the rate of warming. A doubling of CO2 concentrations could warm the planet by between 2 and 4.5 degrees Celsius, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

more
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-does-air-pollution-affect-clouds/?print=true

The biggest uncertainty remains according to Gavin....aerosols. Wonder what happen when China cleans up as Europe and North America did....another bounce? :(
 
+1
Seems ESL needs a bit more pointed nudge.
Perhaps he should start a climate quiz thread.
••••
I agree. In it's proper place it could be both entertaining and educational. What it amounts to here is just a major thread hijack.
With all due respect to your awesome intellect Alec (and I really mean that), you really should start another thread where you could be headmaster and anyone who wishes to participate could be your pupil. ;)
 
Participation is not mandatory. When many of you, page after page, reply silly things to even sillier questions from random people who can't decide if they want to be idiots or morons when they're grown up, you won't heed any reason. Why should I?

This is no popularity contest either. My questions are formatted in a you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourself way to elicit answers, not to show that "the king is naked". Now, I think many should be that way. Just by not answering the last question, which is a snap, I consider my point proved.

It all boils down to the same "attack the argument, not the arguer". You have some questions pointing to the basic causes and workings of our current global warming. You can't answer them and you don't like any finger pointed at you because of that. Then, why are most of you here? This is the general global warming thread that deals with everything related to some process of global warming that is currently happening or not. My questions and their answers are the most legitimate on-topic of this thread.

Don't worry. The answers will come very soon, anyway, as exposing the excess of attitude and the massive lack of knowledge, scepticism and critical thinking skills of the clientèle weren't their main point but seem to be their disgraceful sole by-product.
 


This short 16 minute video pretty much changed my view on geoengineering.

Geoengineering might be our seatbelts.
 


This short 16 minute video pretty much changed my view on geoengineering.

Geoengineering might be our seatbelts.

Yes, some people wearing seatbelts may feel safe and they may be a bit more reckless while they drive but the overall effect is safer cars. The problem is that people having St Christopher's medals and images also may feel safe while they drive, and I don't think they're getting any real benefit from it, safety-wise.

If health cannot be assured it's good having a good health insurance including state of the art intensive care treatment. What kind of treatment offers this geoengineering? That intensive care facility or an eighteenth-century physician bringing leeches, cupping glasses and bleeding bowls? Something in between, probably. Closer to which extreme? Anyway, medicine had to go from one to the other, so geoengineering surely deserves a shot; funding and mid-scale field tests, to start. But so far the results, Inner Mongolians are very pissed with their rain being captured in lower latitudes.
 
Yes, some people wearing seatbelts may feel safe and they may be a bit more reckless while they drive but the overall effect is safer cars. The problem is that people having St Christopher's medals and images also may feel safe while they drive, and I don't think they're getting any real benefit from it, safety-wise.

If health cannot be assured it's good having a good health insurance including state of the art intensive care treatment. What kind of treatment offers this geoengineering? That intensive care facility or an eighteenth-century physician bringing leeches, cupping glasses and bleeding bowls? Something in between, probably. Closer to which extreme? Anyway, medicine had to go from one to the other, so geoengineering surely deserves a shot; funding and mid-scale field tests, to start. But so far the results, Inner Mongolians are very pissed with their rain being captured in lower latitudes.

yeah changes in rain patterns is a very big unknown.
and i am not advocating doing geoengineering now. but it might be that we will need it one day, and then i rather have a system that had atleast some research put into it and some testing than a completely new untested system.

i see it as a backup system, in case we understimated AGW or we fail to act in time.
 
yeah changes in rain patterns is a very big unknown.
and i am not advocating doing geoengineering now. but it might be that we will need it one day, and then i rather have a system that had atleast some research put into it and some testing than a completely new untested system.
In a case like this the first test is the first use. Putting some thought into the matter is obviously called for, though.

A problem is that risk management is likely to rate geoengineering plus AGW as a worse option than AGW alone, since the uncertainties will make the high-end, low-likelihood risks appear large. We're less uncertain about the devil we know.

i see it as a backup system, in case we understimated AGW or we fail to act in time.
The way I see it, if "we" fail to act on AGW "we" will fail to act on geoengineering as well. "We" will be too busy with local adaptation.
 
Let's share some answers. Shall we?

The Earth got 1408 W/m2 from the Sun on January 4th (perihelion) and will get 1316 W/m2 next July 3rd (aphelion). Solar incoming energy varies a lot -because of an elliptic orbit-, does it matter? Not much. Compared to what? It will become apparent soon.

Last January 4th global average temperature was about 12.4°C. Next July 3rd it will be about 16.2°C. Would that mean the world heated? No. It wouldn't cool either. I mean, one of both must be true but the figure - variation of thermal energy in the system- will be really meaningless.

Why is that? Because the Earth gets almost all its energy from the Sun every day, and it gives all that energy back into space the same day, with "all" meant in a practical sense. Of course it may be a loss or a gain, every day is different. We know that little daily energy gains are now more common than energy losses and that situation didn't use to be that way. Anyway, the balance is really minimal once you compare it with the original exchange of energy.

If you want some numbers, the Earth got some 1.55 x 1022J on January 4th and it will get some 1.45 x 1022J on July 3th. Compared to that, the 0-2000 m layer in the ocean (60% of the hydrosphere, managing way above 60% of the global heat imbalances) absorbed 12 x 1022J during the last 9 years. Just 8 days of solar input in 3300 days.

How does it work then? Well, the planet will achieve the temperature level needed to balance that and it will have it pretty balanced at the end of the day. But, why? Because all of it happens "at the speed of light".

On January 4th the Southern Hemisphere is getting some 75%-80% of all incoming solar energy. As this hemisphere has 20 million square kilometres of well "sunbathed" ice, it will reflect a lot back into space. But mainly, being this hemisphere one of waters, heat will tend to generate more water vapour than what would happen in the Northern Hemisphere. That's why temperatures don't climb so much. Additionally, the NH will more fraction of lands can't oppose well to the loss of thermal energy into space. Continental soils will quickly cool as they give up the little energy they contain. Soils are excellent insulators and little heat can flow upwards in them. That's not what happens with waters, but the NH has less ocean area and a big chunk of it becomes quickly covered with ice, which is also an excellent insulator. Anyway, heat from water can escape in loads through the ice when compared with soils. That's why I asked the following question many months ago and got just one extremely wrong answer (You might provide now an answer for the anomalies)

This is the outgoing longwave radiation for yesterday, December 21st (click on for a larger version)



Look carefully the region between 75N and 90N and appreciate how about a half of it -a tiny little bit less than a half- radiated more than 180 W/m2, with regions where the figure was even above 220 W/m2.

Now look carefully at the region between 75S and 90S and appreciate how about a half of it -a not so tiny bit less than a half- radiated more that 180W/m2 with no region radiating more than 220.

Got the facts?

As yesterday was the longest day in the year in the Southern Hemisphere would you care to explain to me and others why did the Antarctic region radiate about the same -a bit less indeed- than its Arctic counterpart provided yesterday was a 24-hour night in the Arctic and a 24-hour day -with the sun up to 38.5° above the horizon at midday- in the Antarctic region? Where does all that heat in the North come from?

Before making any wrong speculation, take a look to the anomalies in OLR for yesterday (again, click on the image for a larger version and to see how I'm roasting here now):



so, as you can surely appreciate, the Antarctic is in "business as normal" while the Arctic is radiating way above the normal. Again, why is that so? I assure you in the end this will relate with those funny, rioting, nice polar bears you cared to mention.

I hope other eager newcomers like Jules, Arnold et al will also dive in to reply these questions. If not -in a few days- I'll invite the normal crowd to reply.

I'm gonna think other interesting questions for some other nice visitors who are eager to engage in debate, no matter who -the feistier(livelier), the merrier-.

[to be continued]
 
In a case like this the first test is the first use. Putting some thought into the matter is obviously called for, though.

A problem is that risk management is likely to rate geoengineering plus AGW as a worse option than AGW alone, since the uncertainties will make the high-end, low-likelihood risks appear large. We're less uncertain about the devil we know.

The way I see it, if "we" fail to act on AGW "we" will fail to act on geoengineering as well. "We" will be too busy with local adaptation.

spraying arosols in the atmosphere comparable to a volcano, just we get to choose where it goes off. seem to me not very risky overall. yes rain patterns might change for a year or two. but overall, we absorb less solar energy and will this slowdown the warming temporary.

like with a seatbelt, you have now the chance to get internal injuris from the seatbelt, yet your risk of faceplanting the windshield and street has been reduced considerably.
 
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[It began here]

On the contrary, in July, it's the NH the one getting most of the heat. As it has less polar ice than the SH, it reflects less solar energy (and as it has less and less ice every year, this contributes to warm the NH faster). Less ocean area to absorb the heat, and temperature in large continental areas going quickly up.

Comparatively, the SH, with its ocean masses, experiences a great loss of heat but without temperatures dropping so steeply. So the global mean temperature goes up.

A variation of the global air temperatures at surface of almost 4°C around the year shows how the planet adapts to sunshine conditions to match energy-in with energy-out. You already knew it? Well, if that is true you can easily gut-feel the result of this hypothetical situation:

Suppose all mankind joined together in a journey of prayer. Every living human being praying the deities for them to do this miracle: take heat from the atmosphere, the first 5 metres of ground and the first 10 metres of ocean, and take heat enough to make every temperature to drop 1°C, so the world would have about the same temperatures as 1900. The miracle also includes to take away enough heat to condensate 20% of water vapour in the atmosphere.

Suppose that Xenu hears our prayers and grants us such a miracle. Temperatures drop and global warming is wiped out from the surface of the Earth. How long do you think it will take for the temperatures to get to the levels before the miracle? Don't make any calculation. Your gut-feeling is enough. Take 15 seconds.

(15 seconds pass) Well, about a week later, half of the heat will have returned to the system. One month later the miracle will be just a memory. Of course, pretty strange weather patterns would arise in the meantime, but soon the miracle will be gone. The reason is the miracle requiring 2.2 x 1022J of sensible heat and 0.4 x 1022J of latent heat to be withdrawn. Less than two days of Sun given energy.

Let's raise the bet. If we're asking a miracle, let's not be cheap. We like all the thermal energy the system trapped since 1900 to be withdrawn, including that energy melting all that ice -but we're not asking the ice to come back ... yet-. That is asking a lot. There isn't an exact figure but 70 x 1022J is a good estimate. Some 45-50 days of solar energy trapped in a span of 114 years (+40,000 days). What tells your gut now? How long until we are back in square one (take other 15 seconds).

In some 6 months most of the change will be undone. Of course it's not easy to get those petajoules back into deep ocean and history wouldn't repeat itself. In less than 2 years all the temperatures will be going up again "normal" speed. And if we had asked all the lost ice to be recovered? Almost exactly the same, with a difference of weeks.

That leaves us with this bit of truth. Today's world temperatures depend mostly of the ability that the atmosphere has to deal with today's incoming solar energy. Yesterday is not much relevant -yesterday, 24 hours ago, and even less relevant is yesterday, 114 years ago-. To solve the current warming we might wipe out all the energy accumulated in 114 years pretty much to no avail. Nothing can be solved because the system is damaged. The miracle shouldn't have affected the heat content or the ice cover but the atmosphere.

If we ask the miracle of an atmosphere back to 300ppmv of CO2 -and the same with other main greenhouse gases- it will take to the planet a few weeks to go back to 1900 -with also strange weather patterns in the meantime-. And ice cover will be recover in a few years -its area, not its volume-.

That poses the question. What are we discussing when we "debate" global warming with the endless parade of denying vagrants that show hear now and again?

Here, there are a lot of intellectual vices and lack of knowledge operating both sides of the rope in this sort of tug-of-war.

Just as a uncategorised sample:

  • Discussing "it's the Sun" with the famous figure against "the Maunder minimum" and other notions that are irrelevant to the problem.
  • Discussing heat trapped in the system and loss of ice as if that could take command of the warming process. Of course they give life to feedback loops. Yes. Feedback! Not the basic problem.
  • Innumeracy has another ugly companion: asystemicity. How the very concept of feedback is dealt is such a big problem. People believing that any negative feedback will cancel the original signal, like a person in a boat having a breach in its hull and they thinking that they can avoid the boat sinking with a bilge pump or just patting water outboard with their hands (most denialists believe this thing). Or people believing that any positive feedback will make the system much worse, or even changed into a different system (way too many "warmers" believe this).
[it will continue]
 
But you have serious impact on the forests and fresh water world wide with acid rain.
oh well i do nope we will find a solution to that before we use it large scale.
and maybe we might reach a point where a little acid rain will be our least of worries.
 
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