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Deeper than primes - Continuation

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By following this reasoning, Φ existence depends on x existence within the following atomic formula:

3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula.

So if Φ is a formula within (3), then ∃x must be a formula within (3).

Your reasoning is faulty, as usual. Φ is not dependent on set x. Item #3 (from this Wikipedia page for those of you who are playing the home version)does NOT state that ∃x is a formula.

You keep trying to add things that are not present. You keep trying to redefine things. You can't even define your own terms that you make up.
 
Your reasoning is faulty, as usual. Φ is not dependent on set x. Item #3 (from this Wikipedia page for those of you who are playing the home version)does NOT state that ∃x is a formula.

You keep trying to add things that are not present. You keep trying to redefine things. You can't even define your own terms that you make up.


Doron is one of those big-picture, concept guys. He leaves the fiddly details to lessor folk (as clearly evidenced by his track record with getting details correct).
 
The current agreement between mathematicians simply does not distinguish between platonic and non-platonic existence, and therefore misses the hierarchy of dependency between the platonic (the discovered) and the non-platonic (the invented).

As long as one asks to define things by the current agreement between mathematicians, one determines the indistinguishably between platonic existence and non-platonic existence, and in this case there is no way to communicate with this one about the difference between platonic and non-platonic existence, and the hierarchy of dependency between the platonic (the discovered) and the non-platonic (the invented).

Thank you. It is a long-winded way of saying "my definition of wff differs from the traditionally accepted definition of wff" but I'll take it.

So, as Innocuous points out, it all hinges on your 'moment of discovery'.

Does this mean that some things never exist unless they are discovered?

Let me ask in a concrete example: Did the square root of 9 exist before it was discovered?
 
Innocuous,

As you can see, the posters here simply ignore http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060207&postcount=4055, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060306&postcount=4057 or http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060339&postcount=4059 exactly because (as already mentioned in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060207&postcount=4055):

The current agreement between mathematicians simply does not distinguish between platonic and non-platonic existence, and therefore misses the hierarchy of dependency between the platonic (the discovered) and the non-platonic (the invented).

As long as one asks to define things by the current agreement between mathematicians, one determines the indistinguishably between platonic existence and non-platonic existence, and in this case there is no way to communicate with this one about the difference between platonic and non-platonic existence, and the hierarchy of dependency between the platonic (the discovered) and the non-platonic (the invented).

Furthermore, the claim that I make up platonic existence, simply demonstrates that the one that uses this claim, uses only non-platonic view.
 
It is not an atomic formula.

Finally, the set of formulas is defined to be the smallest set containing the set of atomic formulas such that the following holds:
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula#Predicate_logic )

1. ...
2. ...
3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula.
4. ...

Yes, ∃x Φ is a formula, not an atomic formula. Perhaps if you went back and actually read and understood the full wiki article instead of quote mining, you may have noticed this part just a few lines above:

...
The next step is to define the atomic formulas.

If t1 and t2 are terms then t1=t2 is an atomic formulaIf R is an n-ary relation symbol, and t1,...,tn are terms, then R(t1,...,tn) is an atomic formula
 
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula#Predicate_logic )

1. ...
2. ...
3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula.
4. ...

Considering jsfisher's correct comment on this, I should consider this strike three... I'll let it slide though.

Doron, get off it; you already admitted that it is not a wff according to traditional definitions.

If you continue to go back and act as if it is, I really need to call attention of the moderators to this thread and let them know of your breach of contract with the forum.
 
Yes, ∃x Φ is a formula, not an atomic formula. Perhaps if you went back and actually read and understood the full wiki article instead of quote mining, you may have noticed this part just a few lines above:

jsfisher, "3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula." is an atomic formula, so please read what I write before you reply.

Here it is again (the following part was taken from http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060207&postcount=4055):

doronshadmi said:
Again, here is some atomic formula (which is some universe of discourse):

3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula.

And this is your reply about this part above (your reply about my part above, can be seen in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060462&postcount=4060):
doronshadmi said:
Again, here is some atomic formula....
It is not an atomic formula.


-----------------------------

Anyway, the main thing here is http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060885&postcount=4065.
 
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jsfisher, "3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula." is an atomic formula, so please read what I write before you reply.

I did read what you posted. It was wrong. Repeating it doesn't make it any less wrong.

It does, however, highlight your reading comprehension skills, or lack of them, and this seems at the root of much of your misunderstanding of all things mathematical.
 
I did read what you posted.
jsfisher, as clearly shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060866&postcount=4064, "3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula." is an atomic formula, so you are wrong when you claim that "3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula."
jsfisher said:
It is not an atomic formula.
.

---------------------------------------


Anyway, the main thing here is http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10060885&postcount=4065.
 
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jsfisher, as clearly shown in ...

As clearly shown in the wikipedia article you linked, there are two atomic formula schemas. ∃x Φ is neither of them. It is, however, a formula schema, just as the wikipedia article indicates.
 
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As clearly shown in the wikipedia article you linked, there are two atomic formula schemas. ∃x Φ is neither of them. It is, however, a formula schema, just as the wikipedia article indicates.
Jsfisher, according to Traditional Mathematics a given set is defined by its contained objects (or their absence).

The concept of set is explicitly used in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula#Predicate_logic , as follows:
Finally, the set of formulas is defined to be the smallest set containing the set of atomic formulas such that the following holds:

The two following expressions
If t1 and t2 are terms then t1=t2 is an atomic formula
If R is an n-ary relation symbol, and t1,...,tn are terms, then R(t1,...,tn) is an atomic formula
which are defined as atomic formulas, are not useful (according to Traditional Mathematics) unless they are contained within the smallest set as its fundamental objects, where the highlighted object within the smallest set { {1. ...}, {2. ...}, {3. ∃x Φ is a formula, when x is a variable and Φ is a formula.}, {4. ...} }, is an example of translation of the atomic formulas into members of the smallest set that is mentioned in the following quote:
Finally, the set of formulas is defined to be the smallest set containing the set of atomic formulas such that the following holds:

If you disagree with me, then please explicitly demonstrate how the two atomic formulas are useful (by Traditional Mathematics) without using the concept of set.

---------------------------------------

Moreover, the concept of set is used as the basis of the definition of atomic formulas:
The definition of a formula comes in several parts. First, the set of terms is defined recursively ...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula#Predicate_logic)

So no matter how you look at it, without the existence of set as a tautology, you can't do anything that is involved with sets, including the definition of wff (whether they are atomic, or not)/
 
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A correction of the last part of the previous post:

So no matter how you look at it, without the existence of set as a tautology, you can't do anything about what is involved with sets, including the definition of wff (whether they are atomic, or not).

Moreover, please look at the beginning of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula):
In mathematical logic, a well-formed formula, shortly wff, often simply formula, is a word (i.e. a finite sequence of symbols from a given alphabet) that is part of a formal language.[1] A formal language can be considered to be identical to the set containing all and only its formulas.
In other words, without the platonic existence of set, no wff (atomic or non-atomic) are defined.
 
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The concept of set is explicitly used in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula#Predicate_logic , as follows:

You do struggle so much with language, Doron. Is your comprehension of Hebrew as bad as it is for written English?

The wikipedia article does state:

Wikipedia said:
Finally, the set of formulas is defined to be the smallest set containing the set of atomic formulas such that the following holds

Let's break that down so you can hopefully understand it.

  • Finally -- an indication that were are now to the point that all the preliminary stuff has been presented and we can proceed to the ultimate result, namely...
  • the set of formulas -- or to be complete, the set of well-formed formulae, but that is patently obvious from the context. Under no conditions, though, would anyone with reasonable comprehension of English take that as the set of atomic formulae.
  • containing the set of atomic formulas -- amazingly enough, the set of (well-formed) formulae include the atomic formulae, those being the things defined in the article paragraph immediately before the one, above. Put another way, any atomic formula is a well-formed formula.
  • such that the following holds -- "the following", of course, being the four conditional statements. Those four statements recursively describe additional well-formed formulae. It does not say that any of these additional formulae are atomic.
  • is defined to be the smallest set -- this is a simple but necessary restriction to narrow the set being defined to just formulae and nothing else. The "smallest set" assures us the set contains nothing else.

So, a well-formed formula is (1) anything that qualifies as an atomic formula according to the two conditions give for atomic formulae, (2) anything that qualifies as a formula according to the four conditionals given for formulae, and (3) nothing else.


Bottom line: Nowhere in that wikipedia article is ∃x Φ described as an atomic formula. Nowhere.
 
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If you disagree with me, then please explicitly demonstrate how the two atomic formulas are useful (by Traditional Mathematics) without using the concept of set.

Just to be clear, you mean the concept of set with respect to the formulae themselves, not the underlying discourse. The latter would be blatantly stupid.

ZFC admits "membership" as a primitive relationship. We could use M as a binary relation symbol, but the infix ∈ is more common. Let's use b and c as terms, then
b ∈ c​
and
b = c​
are atomic formulae (and therefore well-formed formulae). Would you not consider them useful?
 
You do struggle so much with language, Doron. Is your comprehension of Hebrew as bad as it is for written English?

The wikipedia article does state:



Let's break that down so you can hopefully understand it.

  • Finally -- an indication that were are now to the point that all the preliminary stuff has been presented and we can proceed to the ultimate result, namely...
  • the set of formulas -- or to be complete, the set of well-formed formulae, but that is patently obvious from the context. Under no conditions, though, would anyone with reasonable comprehension of English take that as the set of atomic formulae.
  • containing the set of atomic formulas -- amazingly enough, the set of (well-formed) formulae include the atomic formulae, those being the things defined in the article paragraph immediately before the one, above. Put another way, any atomic formula is a well-formed formula.
  • such that the following holds -- "the following", of course, being the four conditional statements. Those four statements recursively describe additional well-formed formulae. It does not say that any of these additional formulae are atomic.
  • is defined to be the smallest set -- this is a simple but necessary restriction to narrow the set being defined to just formulae and nothing else. The "smallest set" assures us the set contains nothing else.

So, a well-formed formula is (1) anything that qualifies as an atomic formula according to the two conditions give for atomic formulae, (2) anything that qualifies as a formula according to the four conditionals given for formulae, and (3) nothing else.


Bottom line: Nowhere in that wikipedia article is ∃x Φ described as an atomic formula. Nowhere.
Thank you for the detailed reply, it helped me to understand that wff (atomic or not) depend of the existence of set but not vice versa, where set is taken as a platonic object.

For example, the first step according to wikipedia article is:
First, the set of terms is defined recursively. Terms, informally, are expressions that represent objects from the domain of discourse.

1. Any variable is a term.
2. Any constant symbol from the signature is a term
3. an expression of the form f(t1,...,tn), where f is an n-ary function symbol, and t1,...,tn are terms, is again a term.

Without the existence of set of terms, one can't do the next steps in order to define the atomic formulas (or other formulas).

So set's existence (as a platonic object) is fundamental in order to define terms, which are used in order to define wff (atomic, or not).

In other words, we return to square 1, where a set is a platonic object (it is always exists, whether it is discovered or not, or whether its properties are given, or not).

The most simple expression which defines the existence of platonic object is done by ∃x ("There exists" x, where x is the platonic object, and at this first stage all is known is that it exists).

The next step defines properties for x according to membership if x is a set (for example: b ∈ x), and only according to x properties (where in the case of set, are given by members or their absence), one can define expression like b = x.

So, even by Traditional Mathematics, no work can be done without the existence of platonic object (whether it is called a set, or not, any domain of discourse is based on the existence of platonic object).

jsfisher, please provide some domain of discourse where a given fundamental object of this domain is not platonic, or please provide domain of discourse that does not have any fundamentals, and yet one can do mathematics with such domain.
 
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Thank you for the detailed reply, it helped me to understand that wff (atomic or not) depend of the existence of set but not vice versa, where set is taken as a platonic object.


No. All it really did with respect to sets was to confuse you further, apparently. Logic and set theory are just about as fundamental as you can get in Mathematics. The wiki article is attempting to describe well-formed formulae without being obtuse or obscure. To do that, the article allows some circularity in its presentation.

Don't read any more into it than that. If you were ever to take a real course in, say, mathematical logic, you might come to appreciate the difficulties dealing with a mathematical subject without the handy, pervasive tool, logic. It is a complicated and nuanced topic, and that is why it is advanced college material.

First order logic sufficient for the ZFC axioms can be rigorously defined without circularity. However, since you continue to be confused by whether ∃x Φ is an atomic formula or if ∃x is a formula at all, there is little point in you leaving the wading pool to try cliff diving.
 
there is little point in you leaving the wading pool to try cliff diving.

I guess you, as many others, are just chilling your feet in the wading pool watching Doron run amok in the shallow waters... :)

However, a lot of us, and Doron conventiently avoids this by kibitzing about something he will never use in the rest of his work anyway, are really waiting for some serious mileage on Doron's philosophical work; the road towards unity (which apparently can not exist as he is defending the duality of existence now... which is quite at odds with his previous claims...).

Doron, how will this platonic existence stuff help? You have not even answered a quite rudimental question: Did the square root of 9 exist before it was discovered?
 
No. All it really did with respect to sets was to confuse you further, apparently. Logic and set theory are just about as fundamental as you can get in Mathematics. The wiki article is attempting to describe well-formed formulae without being obtuse or obscure. To do that, the article allows some circularity in its presentation.

Don't read any more into it than that. If you were ever to take a real course in, say, mathematical logic, you might come to appreciate the difficulties dealing with a mathematical subject without the handy, pervasive tool, logic. It is a complicated and nuanced topic, and that is why it is advanced college material.

First order logic sufficient for the ZFC axioms can be rigorously defined without circularity. However, since you continue to be confused by whether ∃x Φ is an atomic formula or if ∃x is a formula at all, there is little point in you leaving the wading pool to try cliff diving.
Let's take for example what is written about atomic formula in wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_formula):

In mathematical logic, an atomic formula (also known simply as an atom) is a formula with no deeper propositional structure, that is, a formula that contains no logical connectives or equivalently a formula that has no strict subformulas. Atoms are thus the simplest well-formed formulas of the logic. Compound formulas are formed by combining the atomic formulas using the logical connectives.

So, by using mathematical logic an atomic formula is the simplest well-formed formula of the logic, that if combined with logical connectives or quantifiers , provides compound formulas.

Here are the two expressions that define atomic formula ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula#Predicate_logic ):
1. If t1 and t2 are terms then t1=t2 is an atomic formula

2. If R is an n-ary relation symbol, and t1,...,tn are terms, then R(t1,...,tn) is an atomic formula

The first expression is about identity.

The second expression is about relation over terms.

Platonic existence, as I define it, is a tautological existence that does not need any identity or relation in order to exist, but this tautological existence is the basis for things that are defined by using identity or relation, where these things do not have tautological existence.

So platonic existence is simpler than the atomic formulas.

If the domain of discourse is ZFC, then set is the platonic existence of ZFC that does not need any identity or relation in order to exist.

By following the notion of set's tautological existence, ∃x is the expression of it, and it can be found, for example, within ZFC Axiom Of Infinity, as follows:

"There exists a set x (or ∃x)" (this is the platonic existence, that does not need any identity or relation in order to exist (it is a tautological existence)) "such that" (this is the non-platonic existence, that needs identity and/or relation in order to exist (it is not a tautological existence))"the empty set is a member of x and, whenever a set y is a member of x, then S(y) is also a member of x."

So by this finer resolution about existence, set x tautological existence (notated by the outer "{" and "}") is inaccessible to any form of existence that is not tautological existence (where this form of existence, that is also defined as no existence at all) is between the outer "{" and "}".

Traditional Mathematics does not deal with tautological existence, and as a result ∃x (where in the case of ZFC, x is the notion of set) is not a valid expression of its domain of discourse.
 
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