Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Samson]

New stuff turns up in this case all the time. It will continue to do so for one simple reason - fraud.

Hmm singular knives, singular bra clasp hooks, singular judges, all purpose built. I never would have seen this coming, not ever.

 

[Diocletus]

We have to set those times back 12 minutes don't we?

Why aren't the shots of "Rudy" and "Amanda" that clear?

 

[kwill]

Oggi article translation.

Perugia. Does the truth lie in this forgotten video?

There are 2,068 registered files the evening of the murder and they have never been analysed in depth. In one there is a worrying finding. It has a resounding similarity.

By Giangavino Sulas

In the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher there is a DVD, which till now has inexplicably been ignored. It contains 2,068 files made the night of 1st November 2007 by the surveillance telecamera, placed at the entrance to the Sant’Antonio carpark in Perugia. It was seized by the flying squad and consigned to the Scientific Police for analysis of the recorded images for the hours preceeding and following the murder. This telecamera in fact not only captures the entrance to the parking lot, but also the entrance gate to the house in via Della Pergola from across the road. Having finished its work, the Scientific Police, in the account given to the Prosecutor, did not indicate anything relevant, on account of the poor quality of the images and the difficulty in identifying the people taken. And yet there are worrying images taken a little before 10pm, which were missed by the eyes of the enquirers. Very sharp images, among which not only are the people recognisable and potentially identifiable, but all show the same strange behaviour. Between 21.00 and 22.00, the telecamera recorded the entry into the car park of 37 people. All those captured between 21.31 and 21.52 passing the entrance barrier show the same reaction; they stop to look to the left, towards the entrance of the carpark, in other words towards the entrance to Meredith’s house. In several images we see a small family, consisting of father, mother, and two children stop; first the mother turns, then one of the children, then both together. They seem to be discussing something. Finally they go away. The couple who passed before them had the same reaction. What attracted their attention? What was happening during those minutes? Had they heard screams? Had they heard someone screaming for help? Had they seen someone running away? Why were these people not identified and questioned?

In the first trial process the hour of the murder was established based on the evidence of Nara Capezzali, an elderly lady who lived in via Della Pergola (actually strictly incorrect – overlooking it, DCA). She said that she went to sleep at around 21.00, and awoke, for physiological reasons (ie to get up for a pee!, DCA) at around 23.00. She said that on the night of 1st November 2007 when she awoke she heard a harrowing scream. The Perugia Court that condemned Raffaele and Amanda established that the emission of this scream could only have been because Meredith had been stabbed. Had the persons who entered the parking lot heard the same scream, but at a different time (ie from that stated by Capezzali)? Opening a new inquiry the investigators should be able to identify and question them.

Was this a dereliction of duty?
Then there is an image which could change the fate of Amanda. It shows a girl with a shoulder bag and a calm expression who has passed the entrance barrier of the carpark, from where one can pass to the old centre of the city. If this was really Amanda, this picture would become her alibi. It provides the time as indicated on the same telecamera; 20.53. In reality the exact time is different, 21.05, because the time recorded throughout is 12 minutes early. But the English student was murdered between 21.00 and 22.30. This was established in the last judgement of the Appeal Court of Assizes of Florence. Amanda therefore would have been going away from her house five minutes after Meredith’s return. For this reason she could not have taken part in the murder, cleaned herself up and washed, and got back to the Piazza Grimana, where then the tramp Antonio Curatolo saw her, in the company of Raffaele, from 21.30 to 23.30. In order to accuse her once more it would be necessary to change the time of the murder. And if the tramp Antonio Curatolo remains a credible witness, as the Court in Florence maintained, Meredith’s murder has to be moved forward by at least three hours. In fact it would be necessary to do the whole trial again. But in order to redo the trial the Prosecutor of Perugia would need first to open the investigation by reason of dereliction of duty by the Police, to explore why these other pictures, which we are publishing exclusively, were never shown to the examining magistrates by the Scientific Police, who had been given the task of examining the contents of that telecamera. Will they do this? The prosecutors Giuliano Mignini and Manuela Comodi for now prefer silence.

If instead the girl caught on camera at 21.05 was not Amanda, this image would not invalidate her alibi: she and Raffaele have in fact always maintained that they never went out that night. They did not go to via Della Percola, nor to the centre or any local place. They watched a film on the computer, smoked a joint, made love and went to sleep. If they had gone into Meredith’s house they could not have avoided the telecamera of the Sant’Antonio carpark, just as didn’t Guede or for the same reason Meredith did not do.

‘Oggi’, in November 20121, already published an image from 21.00 on November 1st, in which one sees a girl with a white jacket like Meredith’s who is going towards via della Pergola. In two other cameras they caught at 19.40 and 20.10, a man who could have been Rudy Guede, leaving the carpark towards the house of the murder, which, by his own admission, he entered at 20.30, half an hour before Meredith arrived. How he entered the flat, the President of the Court of Florence did not know, and he has said that it is unimportant. The return of the English girl at 21.00 was confirmed by the testimony of her friend Sophie Purton who accompanied her for part of the way (home). Also in those videos there is no trace of Amanda and Raffaele

I wonder what's behind this. Someone from Oggi randomly asked for the tapes and managed to get them? Someone from inside the Polizia tipped them that there was footage worth reviewing? Oggi decided to go looking for more images after the recent click bonanza generated by the recent woman with a handbag?

That first highlight is pretty amazing. ALL the people in the 21-minute window between 9:31 and 9:52 (actually 9:19 and 9:40, after you adjust the time) were struck by something in the direction of the cottage, and this was not interesting to the Police? ALL the people for that long of a stretch, but not before or after? That's a long time . . . whatever they were reacting to was interesting to both adults and children, which makes me think, maybe an animal? Could it have to do with the cat blood?

And none of them were interviewed, and none of them came forward. That's just weird, given all the publicity.

 

[Bill Williams]

I wonder what's behind this. Someone from Oggi randomly asked for the tapes and managed to get them? Someone from inside the Polizia tipped them that there was footage worth reviewing? Oggi decided to go looking for more images after the recent click bonanza generated by the recent woman with a handbag?

That first highlight is pretty amazing. ALL the people in the 21-minute window between 9:31 and 9:52 (actually 9:19 and 9:40, after you adjust the time) were struck by something in the direction of the cottage, and this was not interesting to the Police? ALL the people for that long of a stretch, but not before or after? That's a long time . . . whatever they were reacting to was interesting to both adults and children, which makes me think, maybe an animal? Could it have to do with the cat blood?

And none of them were interviewed, and none of them came forward. That's just weird, given all the publicity.

And it took a year for the police to interview Quintavalle, and they didn't even interview Nara even after she appeared on TV (after a year).

There was something mentioned in the Oggi article that the only way to get all the car-p;ark video into evidence was to first investigate the police for dereliction of duty. I think we now know why Mignini did not want to go there.....
The criminal thing here is that the next Cassazione ruling determines if Knox and/or Sollecito will be considered convicted killers or not.

 

[Anode]

Oggi article translation.

Perugia. Does the truth lie in this forgotten video?

There are 2,068 registered files the evening of the murder and they have never been analysed in depth. In one there is a worrying finding. It has a resounding similarity.

By Giangavino Sulas

...

In the first trial process the hour of the murder was established based on the evidence of Nara Capezzali, an elderly lady who lived in via Della Pergola (actually strictly incorrect – overlooking it, DCA). She said that she went to sleep at around 21.00, and awoke, for physiological reasons (ie to get up for a pee!, DCA) at around 23.00. She said that on the night of 1st November 2007 when she awoke she heard a harrowing scream. The Perugia Court that condemned Raffaele and Amanda established that the emission of this scream could only have been because Meredith had been stabbed. Had the persons who entered the parking lot heard the same scream, but at a different time (ie from that stated by Capezzali)? Opening a new inquiry the investigators should be able to identify and question them.

...

Well no. Not unless the scream lasted for 25 minutes. When was the broken down car there? It was later right? This is roughly 9:40 - 10:05ish. They should find out though. This is right around the time of the murder or just after. Anything I could suggest is pure speculation but since it was dark I'm guessing noise, like a loud protracted argument. If it were people standing around in the dark quietly, who would look at that? Could you see details of a stunned, distraught, blood-covered person (the murderer) from that distance in the dark? And if so, why would that person be outside for so long. I'm guessing noise.

A single scream or a person running away does not last for 25 minutes.

 

[Samson]

I wonder what's behind this. Someone from Oggi randomly asked for the tapes and managed to get them? Someone from inside the Polizia tipped them that there was footage worth reviewing? Oggi decided to go looking for more images after the recent click bonanza generated by the recent woman with a handbag?

That first highlight is pretty amazing. ALL the people in the 21-minute window between 9:31 and 9:52 (actually 9:19 and 9:40, after you adjust the time) were struck by something in the direction of the cottage, and this was not interesting to the Police? ALL the people for that long of a stretch, but not before or after? That's a long time . . . whatever they were reacting to was interesting to both adults and children, which makes me think, maybe an animal? Could it have to do with the cat blood?

And none of them were interviewed, and none of them came forward. That's just weird, given all the publicity.

The standard crime theory has Rudy breaking and entering before 9 pm, at which time he pulls the exterior shutters closed to conceal activity, and lines up the glass on the right broken wind sill while having climbed in the glass free left casement as viewed from the street. This is misinterpreted by Massei as meaning the exterior shutters were closed and an interior action made those glass shards line up against the already closed shutters. Therefore there was nothing to see, and it is nonsensical to imagine all those people sensing noise or irregular activity without coming forward after the publicity. It is far more likely there was another innocent reason. For example, someone might have opened the bonnet of their car.

 

[acbytesla]

I wonder what's behind this. Someone from Oggi randomly asked for the tapes and managed to get them? Someone from inside the Polizia tipped them that there was footage worth reviewing? Oggi decided to go looking for more images after the recent click bonanza generated by the recent woman with a handbag?

That first highlight is pretty amazing. ALL the people in the 21-minute window between 9:31 and 9:52 (actually 9:19 and 9:40, after you adjust the time) were struck by something in the direction of the cottage, and this was not interesting to the Police? ALL the people for that long of a stretch, but not before or after? That's a long time . . . whatever they were reacting to was interesting to both adults and children, which makes me think, maybe an animal? Could it have to do with the cat blood?

And none of them were interviewed, and none of them came forward. That's just weird, given all the publicity.

It is curious. You would have thought that ever tidbit associated with this crime/trial would have been gone over a dozen times at least by now.

 

[Bill Williams]

It is curious. You would have thought that ever tidbit associated with this crime/trial would have been gone over a dozen times at least by now.

Which is a lead-in to....

..... why is no one discussing Nencini's court, or the latest motivations report? According to none other than once-poster here, Machiavelli, Nencini's view of things is "an improvement on Judge Massei."

To summarize some of the glaring things that will be sending Raffaele to jail....

1) Nencini rests his conviction (his belief there was no contamination on the bra-clasp) on his factoid that women have Y-genetic material.

2) Nencini conveniently believes one and only one element of Rudy Guede's pack of lies, namely that Meredith was complaining that she thought Amanda was stealing the rent money. (This is part of Guede's story where he says Meredith let him in.)​

Why is no one talking about this? There are dozens of other issues, as per Luca Cheli's reporting on what Nencini says. Is it because Nencini's writings are beyond stupid? Are people simply resigned that Italy's Cassazione will sign-off on ANYTHING that convicts Knox and Sollecito?

 

[Samson]

Which is a lead-in to....

..... why is no one discussing Nencini's court, or the latest motivations report? According to none other than once-poster here, Machiavelli, Nencini's view of things is "an improvement on Judge Massei."

To summarize some of the glaring things that will be sending Raffaele to jail....

1) Nencini rests his conviction (his belief there was no contamination on the bra-clasp) on his factoid that women have Y-genetic material.

2) Nencini conveniently believes one and only one element of Rudy Guede's pack of lies, namely that Meredith was complaining that she thought Amanda was stealing the rent money. (This is part of Guede's story where he says Meredith let him in.)​

Why is no one talking about this? There are dozens of other issues, as per Luca Cheli's reporting on what Nencini says. Is it because Nencini's writings are beyond stupid? Are people simply resigned that Italy's Cassazione will sign-off on ANYTHING that convicts Knox and Sollecito?

Will they jail Raffaele before processing Amanda's extradition, or will they leave him at large pending her extradition, or will they jail him and not request her extradition? Mach declared on TJMK some time ago they would certainly request her extradition.

One of the above will happen if the morons defy science and ratify the execrable puppet nencini.

 

[acbytesla]

Will they jail Raffaele before processing Amanda's extradition, or will they leave him at large pending her extradition, or will they jail him and not request her extradition? Mach declared on TJMK some time ago they would certainly request her extradition.

One of the above will happen if the morons defy science and ratify the execrable puppet nencini.

I would imagine that they would issue an arrest warrant for Raffaele within minutes of any final affirmation of a conviction of Raffaele. I'd be shocked if that wouldn't happen. But then again, this is Italy where up is down and vice versa.

Mach may know that they would ask for extradition...he seems to have an inside view of the politics..

 

[Bill Williams]

Will they jail Raffaele before processing Amanda's extradition, or will they leave him at large pending her extradition, or will they jail him and not request her extradition? Mach declared on TJMK some time ago they would certainly request her extradition.
One of the above will happen if the morons defy science and ratify the execrable puppet nencini.

Italy as a nation-state would be insane to request extradition.

We would then ALL be discussing Nencini's moronic motivations report - which Machivaelli has said is an improvement on Massei's theories.

Can you imagine arguing Nencini's points in an American court? True, the conviction itself perhaps trumps the reasons for the conviction - but what's an American judge going to do with:

After all the courts before him declare Guede to be an amateur, but athletic burglar.... Nencini declares Guede to be such a professional that he wouldn't have crapped in Laura's/Filomena's toilet without permission!?

Of course Nencini implies that this is because Amanda had asked Rudy to the cottage - yet Rudy's story is that Meredith asked him to the cottage - this is the story that Nencini mines to get the "rent money" motive.

Can you imagine these things argued in an American court?

Then it gets to the State Department, one that is under a Hillary Clinton presidency....

..... where they will actually know that women, even women presidents, do not have Y-genetic material......

With all due respect to Machiavelli, I actually hope Italy DOES request extradition. That would truly internationalize this, and expose Giuliano Mignini for the provincial criminal he is.

My point stands - why is no one discussing Nencini? One of the PMF's has Amanda and Raffaele wrapping Meredith in a blanket in an aborted attempt to kidnap her!!!! THAT'S how much they believe Nencini!!!

 

[acbytesla]

Italy as a nation-state would be insane to request extradition.

We would then ALL be discussing Nencini's moronic motivations report - which Machivaelli has said is an improvement on Massei's theories.

Can you imagine arguing Nencini's points in an American court? True, the conviction itself perhaps trumps the reasons for the conviction - but what's an American judge going to do with:

After all the courts before him declare Guede to be an amateur, but athletic burglar.... Nencini declares Guede to be such a professional that he wouldn't have crapped in Laura's/Filomena's toilet without permission!?

Of course Nencini implies that this is because Amanda had asked Rudy to the cottage - yet Rudy's story is that Meredith asked him to the cottage - this is the story that Nencini mines to get the "rent money" motive.

Can you imagine these things argued in an American court?

Then it gets to the State Department, one that is under a Hillary Clinton presidency....

..... where they will actually know that women, even women presidents, do not have Y-genetic material......

With all due respect to Machiavelli, I actually hope Italy DOES request extradition. That would truly internationalize this, and expose Giuliano Mignini for the provincial criminal he is.

My point stands - why is no one discussing Nencini? One of the PMF's has Amanda and Raffaele wrapping Meredith in a blanket in an aborted attempt to kidnap her!!!! THAT'S how much they believe Nencini!!!

PMF is nuts. Does Raffaele seem like the kind of guy to be so enamored with a girl that he would allow himself to kidnap Meredith?

The extradition process worries me. It seems as if the bar is much lower to extradite someone after they have been convicted as opposed to before a trial. As if they just accept the fact that there was a conviction and they don't second guess that decision. That said, I can't actually imagine the US courts not being diligent to make sure that the decision was fair before they ship off a young pretty college educated girl next door white girl to spend twenty years in prison.

Perhaps it shouldn't matter what kind of background the people involve have but in reality, I think it matters very much.

 

[carbonjam72]

How long can a scream last -

Well no. Not unless the scream lasted for 25 minutes. When was the broken down car there? It was later right? This is roughly 9:40 - 10:05ish. They should find out though. This is right around the time of the murder or just after. Anything I could suggest is pure speculation but since it was dark I'm guessing noise, like a loud protracted argument. If it were people standing around in the dark quietly, who would look at that? Could you see details of a stunned, distraught, blood-covered person (the murderer) from that distance in the dark? And if so, why would that person be outside for so long. I'm guessing noise.

A single scream or a person running away does not last for 25 minutes.

How long might a scream have lasted?

Weren't there indications of some sort of chase inside the cottage, a knocked over chair, etc?

Could there have been a stand-off of some sort, like on opposite sides of a kitchen table or some other obstruction, where Guede couldn't get to Meredith, and she just kept screaming at the top of her lungs for help? If so, would she be screaming in Italian, or just screaming in english for help and incoherently sounding to Italians?

Just wondering why the assumption that any screaming or disturbance had to be short lived.

Meredith Kercher was said to have a great deal of bruising on her body, including a serious punch in the mouth. Doesn't sound consistent with a short struggle after being taken by surprise, before she's then quickly killed.

Just asking...

 

[acbytesla]

How long might a scream have lasted?

Weren't there indications of some sort of chase inside the cottage, a knocked over chair, etc?

Could there have been a stand-off of some sort, like on opposite sides of a kitchen table or some other obstruction, where Guede couldn't get to Meredith, and she just kept screaming at the top of her lungs for help? If so, would she be screaming in Italian, or just screaming in english for help and incoherently sounding to Italians?

Just wondering why the assumption that any screaming or disturbance had to be short lived.

Meredith Kercher was said to have a great deal of bruising on her body, including a serious punch in the mouth. Doesn't sound consistent with a short struggle after being taken by surprise, before she's then quickly killed.

Just asking...

I think it is reasonable to believe that once Rudy stabbed Meredith in the throat any screaming would have quickly come to a halt. But before that it really is impossible to know and your point is certainly valid.

All of these people should have been questioned as to what they may have seen that night. And they all are very likely to be identified easily given that their automobile license plates were recorded.

 

[xinonix]

She said that on the night of 1st November 2007 when she awoke she heard a harrowing scream. The Perugia Court that condemned Raffaele and Amanda established that the emission of this scream could only have been because Meredith had been stabbed.

Rudy killed Meridith using a technique that military people call " sentry removal ". If done correctly the sentry is stabbed in the neck in a way that he is not able to scream and dies quickly. The goal is to kill the sentry silently so the other enemy soldiers don't hear anything alarming. If there was a scream, it probably didn't come from Meridith.

 

[carbonjam72]

If scream was audible, also suggests window was broken before murder

I think it is reasonable to believe that once Rudy stabbed Meredith in the throat any screaming would have quickly come to a halt. But before that it really is impossible to know and your point is certainly valid.

All of these people should have been questioned as to what they may have seen that night. And they all are very likely to be identified easily given that their automobile license plates were recorded.

Also, if Meredith screamed and was heard by the people in the garage across the street, it is further consistent with the window being broken before the murder, and therefore, confirmation there was no 'staged break-in' after the murder,

The CCTV video tape is a video of the crime scene vicinity at the moment of the crime. It is direct evidence, preserved perfectly for analysis. It shouldn't be seen as 'not a big deal'. It's huge.

 

[acbytesla]

She said that on the night of 1st November 2007 when she awoke she heard a harrowing scream. The Perugia Court that condemned Raffaele and Amanda established that the emission of this scream could only have been because Meredith had been stabbed.

Rudy killed Meridith using a technique that military people call " sentry removal ". If done correctly the sentry is stabbed in the neck in a way that he is not able to scream and dies quickly. The goal is to kill the sentry silently so the other enemy soldiers don't hear anything alarming. If there was a scream, it probably didn't come from Meridith.

While this may be true about how Meredith was killed, it doesn't mean that it wasn't preceded with a standoff. Imagine for example that Meredith encountered Rudy in the living room with him coming out of the bathroom and it is there that she screams... And Rudy tries to get her to calm down...and this continues for a while and finally the energy builds up and one of them makes a break...either Rudy toward Meredith or Meredith toward her own bedroom. At which point Rudy grabs Meredith from behind in the sentry removal technique and ends it.

My scenario is meant to be just a possibility. It might explain people turning around trying to figure out what the noise was and then dismissing it as none of their business. OTOH..it might not

 

[Anode]

How long might a scream have lasted?

Weren't there indications of some sort of chase inside the cottage, a knocked over chair, etc?

Could there have been a stand-off of some sort, like on opposite sides of a kitchen table or some other obstruction, where Guede couldn't get to Meredith, and she just kept screaming at the top of her lungs for help? If so, would she be screaming in Italian, or just screaming in english for help and incoherently sounding to Italians?

Just wondering why the assumption that any screaming or disturbance had to be short lived.

Meredith Kercher was said to have a great deal of bruising on her body, including a serious punch in the mouth. Doesn't sound consistent with a short struggle after being taken by surprise, before she's then quickly killed.

Just asking...

A standoff maybe, but chasing her around the apartment screaming for 25 minutes?? I can run over 3 miles in 25 minutes. And I have to assume that realistically 25 minutes of death screams would have surely brought the police. One would hope anyway.

Yet it has to be something of interest. People are purposely turning and looking. I wish we had a photo of what exactly their view was. Does everyone stop and look regardless of day/time? Is it a beautiful view of the canyon? Or can you just see the street and cottage indicating some remarkable activity?

Again, here I am with more questions than answers...

ETA: I brought up Google Maps and they are indeed looking right at the area where the broken window was and Meredith's room.

 

[carbonjam72]

Probably Pretty Close, imo

While this may be true about how Meredith was killed, it doesn't mean that it wasn't preceded with a standoff. Imagine for example that Meredith encountered Rudy in the living room with him coming out of the bathroom and it is there that she screams... And Rudy tries to get her to calm down...and this continues for a while and finally the energy builds up and one of them makes a break...either Rudy toward Meredith or Meredith toward her own bedroom. At which point Rudy grabs Meredith from behind in the sentry removal technique and ends it.

My scenario is meant to be just a possibility. It might explain people turning around trying to figure out what the noise was and then dismissing it as none of their business. OTOH..it might not

Sounds pretty plausible, more or less. People were there at the time in the garage, they have ears and hear things, and all looking in the same direction, something must have been happening. If not a violent murder, then what? But something was apparently happening.

All the evidence has to be taken into account, in some way. Maybe or maybe not related. But the time is in the ballpark for the murder, there was a lot of bruising on Meredith, suggesting prolonged engagement in a fight.

That issue of the duration of the crime is something that has always stuck out in my mind. The murder in the bedroom appeared to be fast. But the signs of injury suggested a longer struggle. The symptoms of a chase in the apartment were something new to me, anyway. The cctv video in the garage is strongly consistent with this scenario & very interesting to me.

It's a piece of the puzzle that seems to "fit", and provide a more complete picture of the totality of the event.

 

[acbytesla]

Sounds pretty plausible, more or less. People were there at the time in the garage, they have ears and hear things, and all looking in the same direction, something must have been happening. If not a violent murder, then what? But something was apparently happening.

All the evidence has to be taken into account, in some way. Maybe or maybe not related. But the time is in the ballpark for the murder, there was a lot of bruising on Meredith, suggesting prolonged engagement in a fight.

That issue of the duration of the crime is something that has always stuck out in my mind. The murder in the bedroom appeared to be fast. But the signs of injury suggested a longer struggle. The symptoms of a chase in the apartment were something new to me, anyway. The cctv video in the garage is strongly consistent with this scenario & very interesting to me.

It's a piece of the puzzle that seems to "fit", and provide a more complete picture of the totality of the event.

I honestly think it is a whole lot of guessing, The only thing I know for sure is that these people should have been identified and asked if they saw or heard anything unusual that night. Do they remember what made them look backwards.

Beyond that we are just playing a game of "I wonder".