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Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Yes of course, completely different. I was guilty, the cop was the witness. I guess I just wanted to make a point that saying "I don't know" to a cop, at least in my case, escalated things to me "not paying attention" and to him adding additional charges until I confessed to the one thing he was looking for.

I try to extrapolate to what would happen if I were accused of something serious like AK and RS were and it's just hard to tell from my example because as you say, it's not the same situation. But after my simple traffic encounter, I'm not optimistic.

No you were not. You were innocent until found guilty by someone other than yourself or the cop. The witness cannot find you guilty, neither can you.

You could confess, but there could be dozens of reasons to make you "not guilty" despite your confession, which is BTW not the same as "innocent."
 
On iffy wireless broadband at the moment so cannot watch it. I am almost 46 years old and would probably confess myself.

Tim Masters didn't implicate himself in this interrogation. I find it rather amazing that he didn't after watching the video.

Investigator tunnel vision played a large role in the case against Masters. Just as it did in the prosecution of Amanda Knox.
 
They know they are "putting you in a box with that very first question of "Do you know how fast you were driving". Trust me they know that. My answer to that question is "I believe I do"...leaving it at that ..but not telling them how fast. Then if they bear down on the question by asking "how fast", you flip the question. "How fast do you think I was driving?"

Need to sound innocent and apologetic
Then again, I got pulled over about six months ago where I knew I woudl get in trouble if I asked truthfully.
"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
"Yes, I am driving a red sports car at three AM."
That answer might not go too well.
Edit: Should add that I knew I was not speeding.
Usually though, I get pulled over for a tail light.
 
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Need to sound innocent and apologetic
Then again, I got pulled over about six months ago where I knew I woudl get in trouble if I asked truthfully.
"Do you know why I pulled you over?"
"Yes, I am driving a red sports car as three AM."
That answer might not go too well.
Usually though, I get pulled over for a tail light.

I love the answer though.

Here is a funny but true story of a friend of mine who was driving well in excess of the speed limit on the highway between Olympia and the Washington coast. The officer pulled him over and asked Do you know how fast you were driving. My friend said "No" The officer looked him incredulously and said "really"? My friend said "sorry, no officer, the speedometer doesn't go that high".

He then explained that there wasn't any traffic and he always wanted to know what it would be like.

And believe it or not, the officer who could have arrested him for reckless driving, laughed and told him ..."Now you know, don't do it again and didn't write him a ticket.
 
Let's start from the beginning, though.

First, Italian law and the ECHR (requiring equality of arms) obligate the prosecution to turn over all investigatory materials. The prosecution did not do so. Further, the prosecution engaged in obstructive behavior as outlined here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HcqNZWrCPMyMfOBfHMuVpOmcFrteW82Xh5Fw-gmlWs/edit?hl=en_US

Second, the defense requested all of the lab data and Massei on July 18, 2009 ordered them to produce it. Commodi got all indignant and the prosecution proceeded to violate the order by only turning over select data which was a tiny fraction of the lab data. The prosecution then opposed the defense's ensuing motion to enforce the discovery order (and motion to dismiss for the prosecution's concealment of the lab data), and Massei acted like a ball-less wonder and let the prosecution get away with it.

As I recall, the discovery issues were renewed before Hellman.

As to Nencini, my recollection is that the defense made 20 or 30 requests which were almost all denied. Dollars to donuts one of those requests is for the lab data, which obviously would include the EDFs.

This all brings me back to a more basic point, though. What's the problem with giving a defendant access to the information that the lab has generated in the course of its investigation? Shouldn't even guilters be in favor of disclosure to defendants, since disclosure is the hallmark of a full and fair trial? At this point, the process is so non-transparent that a conviction will always be viewed as tainted.

1. No dispute that the defense asked for EDF files pre-Hellman.

2. You speculate that the defense further asked for disclosure of EDF files in front of Nencini. I haven't found that they did, and I'm still looking for proof of that.

3. As best as I can tell, Bongiorno didn't mention EDF files in front of Nencini in her address to the court.

The question is why, if the "suppression" of EDF files is so important, that she didn't express that?

To play devil's advocate, she may have been prohibited from mentioning it. I doubt that, of course, because it has never been mentioned to my knowledge.

On the flip side, it may be that the defense did, in fact, get the files they sought, and therefore she didn't press the issue.

But whatever the reason, I can only assume that she didn't press it because she doesn't consider the missing EDF files helpful to the case. She can't very well turn around and tell Cassation later this year that the missing files were crucial if she neglected to mention them at Nencini.

So if Bongiorno, who knows every advantage to her client's case, didn't consider them important to mention, why are they important?
 
I want to say first and foremost, that I am not against coercive interrogation techniques. 98% of the time, the cops have the real perp in front of them, and coercive techniques, upto and including the cops lying... I actually have no trouble with.

And it's with this said that an interrogation IS NOT about eliciting further information. It's about confession. Why do you who claim knowledge of law enforcement not acknowledge this.

What's at issue are a couple of things: one is that whatever technique is used, Reid Technique or others, what is the check and balance within it which guards against the 2% - guards against simply eliciting a false confession? American law enforcement claims that since the lessons of the Central Park Five false confessions; they now take special care to be as coercive in their questioning, while at the same time looking for the telltales signs that the questioners themselves are not causing the result they've set out to want falsely.

The trouble I have with the Sollecito/Knox/Lumumba interrogations is not thatthey were coercive - it's that they were illegal.

None of them had lawyers. Machiavelli went through dietrological gyrations here to position Amanda Knox as "all but suspected", because Machiavelli knows that for Knox to make "spontaneous statements", she cannot do them while already suspected. For Knox to be denied a lawyer she cannot be denied one while already being suspected. For Knox to be denied a competent translator (ie. one who would not act as a mediator!) she cannot be denied one while already being suspected.

Yet, guilters and Machiavelli alike need to also show that (especially) Knox was corrected suspected from the beginning. The bit about the alleged "staging of the crime scene" was supposed to have uniquely pointed to Knox from Nov 2 onwards.... John Follain writes a book with the subtext that the PLE was right to suspect Knox from the beginning, etc, etc, etc, and on cop says that at interrogation, "she buckled and told us what we already knew."

The illegal part of this is the error, not the coercive part of it. Not videotaping it (ie. flipping the switch)made the thing unusable, yet could slipinto court against Sollecito and Knox because of Lumumba's parallel calunnia charge, adjudicated at the same time by the same court.

Everything about the interrogation said that the cops had the wrong people. Knox had lied about the drug use in the upstairs of the cottage - but then again so did everyone else, except for Filomena who at trial had to admit she "had sinned". Filomena knew the score on that with her legal career ahead at stake.

It was the patent illegality of the interrogation which is the problem - virtually admitted to by Mignini himself in the 2010 CNN interview with Drew Griffin. Mignini said he'd quoted the law to Ficarra which forced him to shut down the interrogaiton leading to the 1:45 am statement, then incredibly Mignini tells Griffin that he continued.... all to effect a second "spontaneous" statement at 5:45 am. That statement betrays the importance of all this by even putting that word right at the front of the 5:45 am statement.

Mignini said he'd not coached or asked a single question - and we're to believe that a 20-year-old foreigner who did not speak the language or understand the subtleties of Italian interrogation law remembered to put that in!!!!???

What was going on that night was illegal and Mignini knew it. His behaviour that night and explanations to Griffin in 2010 prove it.

Mignini is a criminal. Demonstrably so.

But..... in theory interrogations are just fine, coercive or not. No one would have complained if they had got Guede to confess using these means.

Bill this is the rest of the link Strozzi posted successfully of LashL

Alibis: Alternatives to coercive methods rendered the statements elicited
involuntary, unreliable and therefore inadmissible. In his ruling,
Justice Fletcher Dawson found that, notwithstanding that the KGB
criteria (R. v. B. (K.G.) [1993] 1 S.C.R. 740) had been met, he was
left with serious misgivings about the reliability of Cox’s recantation
of his alibi. He found that the disputed part of the Cox interview was
inadmissible. He also excluded the Allison interview “for the truth of
its contents” but he did permit the prosecution to use the statement
for the limited purpose of testing the witness’s credibility during
examination, but with the jury being expressly prohibited from
relying on the statement to make any findings of fact.
The Morgan case demonstrates that the Reid interrogation method
can be used to extract inculpatory statements from eyewitnesses and
retractions from alibi witnesses. Because the trustworthiness of
such statements is compromised by the pressure tactics and threats
used to procure them using the Reid Technique, the criminal justice
system is ill-served by such methods. There are viable interviewing
methods for suspects and witnesses that do not rely on
oppressive or accusatory methods (e.g., the Cognitive Interview).
Criminal defence lawyers should be alerted that using coercive interview
practices could possibly imperil trial fairness.

Brian Cutler is professor and associate dean at the University of
Ontario Institute of Technology, where he teaches in the forensic
psychology program. Timothy Moore is professor of psychology at York
University’s Glendon College, where he teaches psychology and law.

Continued from page 14

THE LAWYERS WEEKLY June 6, 2014 • 15
 
1. No dispute that the defense asked for EDF files pre-Hellman.

2. You speculate that the defense further asked for disclosure of EDF files in front of Nencini. I haven't found that they did, and I'm still looking for proof of that.

3. As best as I can tell, Bongiorno didn't mention EDF files in front of Nencini in her address to the court.

The question is why, if the "suppression" of EDF files is so important, that she didn't express that?

To play devil's advocate, she may have been prohibited from mentioning it. I doubt that, of course, because it has never been mentioned to my knowledge.

On the flip side, it may be that the defense did, in fact, get the files they sought, and therefore she didn't press the issue.
But whatever the reason, I can only assume that she didn't press it because she doesn't consider the missing EDF files helpful to the case. She can't very well turn around and tell Cassation later this year that the missing files were crucial if she neglected to mention them at Nencini.

So if Bongiorno, who knows every advantage to her client's case, didn't consider them important to mention, why are they important?

They are important in the sense of this parallel:

Our traffic cops used to use "photo radar", to catch speeders.

Stefanoni testifying at court that someone was caught speeding is one thing, it's quite another to show the photo itself, plus some documentation that the photo-machine was calibrated properly that day.

Stefanoni did the former. She basically said, "I'm the expert, you must trust me," and never showed the photo with the raw data on it.

Even in the Hellmann trial, Hellmann actually didn't need the EDFs because he acquitted. It is not up to the defence to prove they'd not been given them, it is up to the prosecution to produce them. They didn't and I (think) that was one of the reasons why Hellmann acquitted, because it is up to the prosecution to prove a case, not up to the defence to disprove it.

My view is that if Stefanoni did not mention the EDFs, she probably thought (wrongly) that there was no evidence otherwise against her client to convict.

So, rather than get stuck of the defence's view of the EDF's, I'd value your opinion on the "factoids" that Nencini cited in which he DID convict.... things like women having Y-genetic material.

Do you think women have Y-genetic material... not just one, but in Nencini's scenario.... two women.
 
In 2010 Bob Graham wrote, "And, despite repeated applications from the defence for independent forensic tests to be conducted and for a full disclosure of all DNA test results and methods, the Italian court has remained obdurate in its refusal to do so."

As I said earlier today, Bongiorno discussed the lack of disclosure in an address to the court in the summer or fall of 2009. And as previously noted, the links are in a previous continuation thread. Rather than going into JAQ mode, I suggest that you or anyone else who is interested should turn them up, read, and link them again. And as I said earlier, Dalla Vedova also discussed the lack of disclosure in 2011 (link previously given today).

To repeat what I just said, I don't disagree that the defense alleged EDF files were missing or suppressed as far back as 2011 (Hellman, essentially)

But those complaints don't seem to carry forward to 2014. Why would Bongiorno not beat the drum for missing EDF files in front of Nencini if they were so pivotal to the proof of contamination?

I don't see EDF in her address, but even if it's there, she says very little about it. Instead, she alleges contamination broadly, and is more forceful about collection and storage, not testing.
 
People should read Steve Moore's anlysis of the Nencini motivations report as it relates to the "selective clean-up" in the murder room.

I'll go through a bit of it here, but the link is: (And scroll down)


Nencini acknowledges the difficulty of someone performing such a selective-clean at the molecular level, and admits that it is theoretically impossible.

But the reason why he still holds that this does not "exonerate" either Knox or Sollecito is because, "The affirmation, if apparently agreeable theoretically, must be correlated with the case in question, of which there are certain peculiarities."

Moore summarizes this to mean: Even if it's theoretically impossible, we must look at this impossibility in relation to this case.

Nencini's "reasoning" relates to that not a lot of Knox was found at the cottage itself, a place where she lived. (Nencini, apparently forgets about Raffaele, but I'm assuming his remarks about Knox relate to Sollecito, so perhaps he can be given some slack on that point.)

Moore quickly discovers what's wrong with Nencini's assumption, the strawman argument Nencini is making so as to knock down some other point.

Moore says: "That would be peculiar if the statement was true--but it's not. There were many traces of Amanda in the cottage--that were admitted into evidence. Just none in the victim's room where the murder occurred. How he can get away with that lie is a mystery."

Judge Nencini has written a motivations report based on nonsense.... and it's not just that he says women have Y-genetic material.

The conclusion of this factoid of Nencini's that the alleged clean-up had to have been selective is this: "The evidence provided by the Scientific Police proves this incontestable truth, which the reasoning must take into consideration."

Meaning, that despite its impossibility it must have happened, judicially speaking of course.

And Moore summarizes Nencini's reasoning correctly by saying:

1. Either it is possible (against scientific fact) to selectively clean DNA, or Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.
2. We have already decided that Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.
3. Therefore, the only conclusion left is that it MUST be possible to selectively clean DNA from a crime scene.​
 
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1. No dispute that the defense asked for EDF files pre-Hellman.

2. You speculate that the defense further asked for disclosure of EDF files in front of Nencini. I haven't found that they did, and I'm still looking for proof of that.

3. As best as I can tell, Bongiorno didn't mention EDF files in front of Nencini in her address to the court.

The question is why, if the "suppression" of EDF files is so important, that she didn't express that?

To play devil's advocate, she may have been prohibited from mentioning it. I doubt that, of course, because it has never been mentioned to my knowledge.

On the flip side, it may be that the defense did, in fact, get the files they sought, and therefore she didn't press the issue.

But whatever the reason, I can only assume that she didn't press it because she doesn't consider the missing EDF files helpful to the case. She can't very well turn around and tell Cassation later this year that the missing files were crucial if she neglected to mention them at Nencini.

So if Bongiorno, who knows every advantage to her client's case, didn't consider them important to mention, why are they important?

Putting aside whatever went on previously, the problem specifically with the nencini proceeding is that we don't know exactly what was requested. That said, I do recall reading something about a Sollecito lawyer (not bongoiorno) making reference to missing amplification records before nencini, although I don't have a cite. I don't believe that they would have filed a motion to dismiss for lack of disclosure in the lower court, and then failed to mention the issue on appeal.

Also, you're assuming that they need to preserve this issue at each intermediate stage of a single trial process. I don't know whether that's an accurate presumption.
 
I thought that might be the point - although it is silly to use paparazzi magazine shots as proof of anything as they are all tweaked and mirrored so that they look their best on the page. And I think lots of people swap their bag side, depending on whether their shoulder/arm is aching so don't really agree with that argument and a far better argument is that Amanda is not a fat middle aged woman with a moustache

Nancy the only times Amanda has used the left shoulder is with James Terrano. I went through the images and posted the links, this photo was the same walk, and they swapped sides in walking, and she did not swap shoulders with her bag. Unfortunately this CCTV thing has worked against Amanda, and evidence it is not her should not be either or, but additive IMO.

My link requires a few seconds to load

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=a...knox-steps-out-with-new-beau-20111411;467;436

And Sherlock's link

http://amradaronline.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/amanda-knox-boyfriend.jpg

I see it as a non trivial point, but others disagree.
See if some one can find another clothing bag combo where she uses the left shoulder.
 

One of the comments is a real good one:
Great stuff pointing out how ludicrous the clean up theory is. It makes even less sense when you consider that neither Amanda nor Raffaele so much as mentioned Guede during their interrogations - if they were so careful to orchestrate a miraculous clean up in order to frame Guede, why the hell wouldn't they point the finger in their interrogations??
 
Putting aside whatever went on previously, the problem specifically with the nencini proceeding is that we don't know exactly what was requested. That said, I do recall reading something about a Sollecito lawyer (not bongoiorno) making reference to missing amplification records before nencini, although I don't have a cite. I don't believe that they would have filed a motion to dismiss for lack of disclosure in the lower court, and then failed to mention the issue on appeal.

Also, you're assuming that they need to preserve this issue at each intermediate stage of a single trial process. I don't know whether that's an accurate presumption.

We don't know what was requested, you assert it was requested, Bongiorno never mentions it in her address to the court, yet you presume that that the missing EDF's are meaningful when she apparently doesn't?

And you then think that she may raise the issue more forcefully later in the Supreme Court when she didn't raise it in the more important Nencini appeal?

This makes little sense to me. If she was prohibited from not raising EDF's at Nencini, I would have expected that story to come out -- the judges denied it, and Bongiorno was incensed.

Instead, there is no story that Bongiornio is incensed, she doesn't mention EDF's, and makes her case for contamination broadly, in other ways.

So in light of this, how important are the EDF's?
 
We don't know what was requested, you assert it was requested, Bongiorno never mentions it in her address to the court, yet you presume that that the missing EDF's are meaningful when she apparently doesn't?

And you then think that she may raise the issue more forcefully later in the Supreme Court when she didn't raise it in the more important Nencini appeal?

This makes little sense to me. If she was prohibited from not raising EDF's at Nencini, I would have expected that story to come out -- the judges denied it, and Bongiorno was incensed.

Instead, there is no story that Bongiornio is incensed, she doesn't mention EDF's, and makes her case for contamination broadly, in other ways.

So in light of this, how important are the EDF's?

It is my understanding griffin that the defense made more than twenty motions and pretty much all but two were denied. (Grinder corrected me when I said one in an earlier post) Frankly I don't know what all those motions were.

Would you really expect Bongiorno to express her displeasure with the same people that told her no? You should find out if it is an issue in the appeal to the Court of Cassation.
 
It is my understanding griffin that the defense made more than twenty motions and pretty much all but two were denied. (Grinder corrected me when I said one in an earlier post) Frankly I don't know what all those motions were.

Would you really expect Bongiorno to express her displeasure with the same people that told her no? You should find out if it is an issue in the appeal to the Court of Cassation.

The question is why Bongiorno didnt' mention missing EDF's, or didn't emphasize missing (supressed) EDF files as part of the defense.

The missing EDF's are supposedly crucial to the contamination debate.

Why do you think she didn't express this in front of Nencini?
 
The question is why Bongiorno didnt' mention missing EDF's, or didn't emphasize missing (supressed) EDF files as part of the defense.

The missing EDF's are supposedly crucial to the contamination debate.

Why do you think she didn't express this in front of Nencini?

I am not sure why this would bother anyone in comparison to things like Nencini has said.... women having y-genetics being one.
 
Frank Esposito, false confessions, and the Reid technique

You have a right to remain silent. You have a right to have an attorney present durring any questioning. Any technique the police use to get around these rights should be unacceptable, period.
I agree, and I would put limits on what the police are allowed to lie about. I would write explicit rules saying that the police may not lie about anything relating to what the penalty for a certain crime is, or their ability/willingness to put a good word in for the suspect, or whether or not they failed a polygraph test. Consider the Frank Esposito arson case. He was told it would be best for him to say that he started the fire accidently and was very sorry he did so. As soon as Esposito (then 17 years old or so) did so, they charged him with arson. Eventually his lawyers were able prove his innocence on the basis of cell phone data. BTW his videotaped confession is somewhat disconcerting to watch. I used to have the link...
 
We don't know what was requested, you assert it was requested, Bongiorno never mentions it in her address to the court, yet you presume that that the missing EDF's are meaningful when she apparently doesn't?

And you then think that she may raise the issue more forcefully later in the Supreme Court when she didn't raise it in the more important Nencini appeal?

This makes little sense to me. If she was prohibited from not raising EDF's at Nencini, I would have expected that story to come out -- the judges denied it, and Bongiorno was incensed.

Instead, there is no story that Bongiornio is incensed, she doesn't mention EDF's, and makes her case for contamination broadly, in other ways.

So in light of this, how important are the EDF's?


I agree with you that we simply don't have the case details that we should have in order to evaluate if the EDF's were or were not provided or even requested.

OTOH I think the EDF's are critical to the case. If the defense failed to ask for these files or accepted some partial version then they are wrong and incompetent and out of their depth in this area of the murder case.

I happen to think the defense was poorly handled. I make no bones about that. This is such a clear cut case of wrongful prosecution of a far fetched, missing all evidence, wildly speculative accusations that no defense should have been necessary at all...and in fact the defendants barely had a defense in truth. These lawyers were crap.

The proof is that they could not win THIS case. They were afraid to defend their clients with the truth. They failed to demand interrogation tapes. They allowed the SC first ruling blocking any interrogation material into the case to be simply sidestepped with hardly a whimper.

Bongiorno was the worst. She missed most of the first trial being pregnant and then having a baby meanwhile she caused most of the delays. OTOH a good expert murder trial lawyer would have mopped Mignini and Perugia police up.

These lawyers were political choices...and what the defendants needed was an expert not afraid to call a spade a spade. They exist in Italy...not everyone cowers at the threat of a crazy prosecutor...

So yes the defenders made tons of mistakes...it would not surprise me in the least if they missed the importance of the DNA data. AK lawyers were afraid to mention the fact that she was struck by police. Why would she make that up? Why would her lawyers not hammer away at the fact? Demand the recordings? Demand the EDF's! Right sure...did they? I don't know. But a competent defense lawyer would have done so...no doubt.
 
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The question is why Bongiorno didnt' mention missing EDF's, or didn't emphasize missing (supressed) EDF files as part of the defense.

The missing EDF's are supposedly crucial to the contamination debate.

Why do you think she didn't express this in front of Nencini?

I understand what your saying but I disagree with the premise. If the defense asked for the EDFs in the pre trial motions and that was denied, it makes little sense for them to bring this point up during the trial. I mean if it wasn't important to the court during the motion, what difference do you think it would make to the same judge who turned you down on this point?
 
I agree with you that we simply don't have the case details that we should have in order to evaluate if the EDF's were or were not provided or even requested.

OTOH I think the EDF's are critical to the case. If the defense failed to ask for these files or accepted some partial version then they are wrong and incompetent and out of their depth in this area of the murder case.

I happen to think the defense was poorly handled. I make no bones about that. This is such a clear cut case of wrongful prosecution of a far fetched, missing all evidence, wildly speculative accusations that no defense should have been necessary at all...and in fact the defendants barely had a defense in truth. These lawyers were crap.

The proof is that they could not win THIS case. They were afraid to defend their clients with the truth. They failed to demand interrogation tapes. They allowed the SC first ruling blocking any interrogation material into the case to be simply sidestepped with hardly a whimper.

Bongiorno was the worst. She missed most of the first trial being pregnant and then having a baby meanwhile she caused most of the delays. OTOH a good expert murder trial lawyer would have mopped Mignini and Perugia police up.

These lawyers were political choices...and what the defendants needed was an expert not afraid to call a spade a spade. They exist in Italy...not everyone cowers at the threat of a crazy prosecutor...

So yes the defenders made tons of mistakes...it would not surprise me in the least if they missed the importance of the DNA data. AK lawyers were afraid to mention the fact that she was struck by police. Why would she make that up? Why would her lawyers not hammer away at the fact? Demand the recordings? Demand the EDF's! Right sure...did they? I don't know. But a competent defense lawyer would have done so...no doubt.

So your opinion is that the EDF's were important, but that Bongiorno, who has access to the entire case file as you don't, didn't think they were.

But she was probably wrong, and a better attorney would have advocated differently?

Is that what you're saying?
 
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