• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

Status
Not open for further replies.
If "proving an absence is difficult", then I don't see why it should be assumed that the defense did not, in fact, receive all the EDF's.

In looking over Bongiorno's statement at the appeal, she doesn't seem to mention EDF files.

If the missing EDF files are a smoking gun for contamination, then I find it peculiar that they aren't mentioned, or to the extent they are, aren't a focal part of the argument.

Is there a link or cite to Bongiorno expressing dismay at the missing EDF's specifically at the recent appeal?

1) The defence say they did not get full disclosure. The records available support the contention full disclosure did not occur. Stefanoni said she would decide what information was necessary for the defence. I suspect if full disclosure had occurred the file containing this would have appeared. It would be an electronic file and easily uploaded. There is no direct statement by the police that they have provided full disclosure.

2) The records may show several things e.g. exculpatory evidence by identifying DNA of a previously unidentified individual, which when run through records identifies a known sex criminal whose modus operandi is to break in to commit rape and murder. It may demonstrate poor laboratory practice such that the DNA tests are unreliable. It may demonstrate contamination if negative controls are contaminated by DNA. No one knows. But one can think of no good reason not to disclose. All of this data is electronic, providing paper copies is more effort than providing an electronic copy.

To be honest I do not really understand how the Italian court works. Most of the evidence appears to be paper based with little evidence given in court. Do the judges sit down together and go through the files? This is when the thinking of the court arises, yet it seems that the rational is written later by the professional judge alone. Only a proportion of the case appears to be made (certainly at appeal level) in person.

There are lots of quotes some give above.
 
Your point being that it is possible that the luminol gave a positive result but that then there was the perfect dilution so as to test negative for blood with TMB.

This is a statistical invalid.... some would even say stupid argument. About as honest and believable as that Captain who said he tripped and fell into the life boat. This logic is not scientific...it is speculation...at its worst!

There appear to be several innocent explanations for the Luminol positive smudges found around the flat. There is no time stamp to say when they occurred, their nature is uncertain. They may be attributable to dilute blood, but whose or what's is unknown. They may have been produced by people moving around after the murder. Pictures show Luminol positive material on the overboots. (Also I believe there was a break in prior to the Luminol testing being carried out.) The smudges may be due to non blood material. Certainly there is insufficient detail to derive any identity as to who made these smudges. So we have no identity, no time and uncertainty as to the nature of these smudges. The smudges show no evidence of cleaning so that is in favour of the defence. The smudges do not lead from MK bedroom and show no fading nor do they fit with any particular narrative of the crime.

I would take the view (and I may be wrong) that the defence do not have to provide a single explanation for the evidence. Several alternatives would seem legitimate. It does seem that the defence does need to provide explanations for all evidence, e.g, Nencini's criticism of the defence for failing to explain the telephones being dumped. If the defence cannot explain this then it must be evidence of guilt he seems to argue.
 
There appear to be several innocent explanations for the Luminol positive smudges found around the flat. There is no time stamp to say when they occurred, their nature is uncertain. They may be attributable to dilute blood, but whose or what's is unknown. They may have been produced by people moving around after the murder. Pictures show Luminol positive material on the overboots. (Also I believe there was a break in prior to the Luminol testing being carried out.) The smudges may be due to non blood material. Certainly there is insufficient detail to derive any identity as to who made these smudges. So we have no identity, no time and uncertainty as to the nature of these smudges. The smudges show no evidence of cleaning so that is in favour of the defence. The smudges do not lead from MK bedroom and show no fading nor do they fit with any particular narrative of the crime.

I would take the view (and I may be wrong) that the defence do not have to provide a single explanation for the evidence. Several alternatives would seem legitimate. It does seem that the defence does need to provide explanations for all evidence, e.g, Nencini's criticism of the defence for failing to explain the telephones being dumped. If the defence cannot explain this then it must be evidence of guilt he seems to argue.

That's another one of his stupid mistakes. They did but he mustn't read it.

Sollecito Defence Witness – Bruno Pellero

I have done a range of scientific-based studies, immediately after entry to the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Genoa I began to travel for work and I started to design mobile communications systems, in particular in Japan, in Korea and later in Finland. I’m referring to first generation cell phone devices, and later GSM cell phones. In about 1989 I was called back to Italy to assist the management of the judicial authorities in terms of design and solutions for intercepting cellular communications which I designed and made available to the judicial authorities. Later I specialized at Oxford University in the United Kingdom in GSM systems and network installations, design, operations for both the 900 network and the 1800… In the course of my professional activities my collaborations in the industry have extended from telephone manufacturers to manufacturers of wiretapping devices, for telephony companies and public administration. For a few years I was a consultant for the Cabinet of the Ministry of Justice on wiretapping, consultant for the Minister of Communications on the same subject, technical component of the Ministry for network security and safeguard of communications in the field for which I have defined the characteristics, the costs of the mandatory services that the operators provide to the judicial authorities for wiretapping and documentation of traffic. I do a lot of consultancy and above all lecturing, I work in the lecturing of forensic techniques, for the High Council of the Judiciary at the study days for the Magistrates of the judicial authorities and I’m the coordinator of the lecturers of methodological and technical subjects of the Upper University institute of Pavia and at that institute I’m a member of the Scientific Council of the centre for risks and security, lecturer in electronic surveillance systems of Intelligence of the (inc.) of Calabria, I deliver seminars in investigative technologies in 4 continents.

p106-108 questioning by defense lawyer Giulia Bongiorno


Q: Now what interests us, other than this theoretical reconstruction, which is the most important fact for us for the findings that interest the Court, is to understand: based on all these reconstructions, cell repeaters and measurements, and from your experience when did this cell phone leave Meredith’s house? Are we able to say?
A: I’ll refer to the summarized result and then I can explain it. On the basis of the summarized result the telephone would have been in the area for which it has was established that there wasn’t any unusual traffic, the Judicial Police did tests regarding the quantity of traffic and that is not a concern, the area in which the cell repeater 30064 is received which you find in this area and so excluding the rural area over here which is of no interest, it would be the area of Sant’Angelo Park. So where? What connection could there be? It’s not the area of Meredith and Amanda’s house, because from the measurements taken I will explain what the situation is, and so it was in any case already a distance from the house of via della Pergola. How far? Let’s imagine that at 22.13…
Q: Ok first, then later you can explain to us the slide, however just to call to the Court’s attention, because this premise is needed for this conclusion. All of this reconstruction on the basis of the documents submitted by the Judicial Police, of the measurements taken for us, they must be of use in practice and not just to know how things work in theory and it must be used to inform us when the telephone leaves. Seeing as we have a time, 22:13, with a GPRS connection, the question which I’d like you to respond to is this: given the premise that this time 22:13 exists with this connection according to your reconstruction and the following slides this connection occurred when the telephone was inside the house of via della Pergola or outside?
A: No, the connection for me, and I’m convinced of this, occurred here, while the telephone was inside Sant’Angelo Park, in the vicinity of the garden of via della Pergola and probably the reason why the telephone was thrown in the garden of via della Pergola, otherwise there wouldn’t be a reason to throw it there. For me it happened that the telephone received an MMS message, the telephone rang, whoever had the telephone remembered in that moment having a telephone which amongst other things was proof of a crime and decided to get rid of it and it was gotten rid of in the place where the person was. So at 22:13 the telephone was here, it was more or less here, it couldn’t have been very far, but the fact that it couldn’t be very far is a result of the compatibility of the radio-electric coverage with that cell repeater, and we’ll see it in detail later, and of the compatibility with the toss which can’t be 200 meters further there, but must be in the region of a few meters or very few tens of meters. At this point when could it have left? I can go back in time to the exit from the house within the limits of the journey that was done, I’ve done it by road, and it’s about 800 meters, it can be done on foot cutting across the field. Just to be clear and then from the photos it’s easier to understand, going via the center of Perugia, especially after such an event, hence likely to be out of breath, perhaps covered in blood and so on, whoever was carrying Meredith’s telephone and so had taken it from her in the moment or moments immediately before or after Meredith’s murder probably wouldn’t want to be noticed. At this point this person would have passed through the center, this person would have gone via the external route, and having the choice and knowing Perugia probably not along the road that is the longest route but perhaps along Sant’Angelo Park which is the shortest route. In combination with this route the cell repeater which covers much better than all the others is repeater 30064 and it is that one which corresponds with the highest value of parameter C2 which is what causes the decision for. [Italian original stops unexpectedly mid-sentence]. Along Sant’Angelo Park the reason why the person arrived here, it’s not for me to say, but in this moment something happened, the telephone which could have been abandoned in the field, in a bush in Sant’Angelo Park, is thrown down a steep bank along the road and it finished in a restricted area that is the garden. At about 22:00 when in November it is completely dark, the garden cannot be distinguished as a place in its own right, it appears just as a thicket, perhaps the biggest thicket of the steep bank which comes after via Andrea da Perugia. So probably the intent to get rid of the phone is executed through a toss which hoped to send it as far away as possible and which carried it into the trees without knowing that beyond those trees there was a garden. This is the conclusion I arrived at.

p131 questioning by defense lawyer Giulia Bongiorno

Q: But is the most likely hypothesis that the telephone had left?
A: 99 times out of a 100 the cell repeater 30064 would have been chosen as the repeater serving the points measured in Sant’Angelo Park, there exists a residual possibility in Meredith’s house that could be one, two or three per cent.
Q: It’s not possible to objectively say that the cell repeater 30064 is incompatible with via della Pergola, on the basis of these calculations which take into account the C2 factor, one can say that it is more likely that it was in Sant’Angelo Park, as a probability it’s about 99%?
A: Look the probability can be measured in these terms and what I can tell you is that at Sant’Angelo Park, the difference with the next nearest cell repeater is considerable, really considerable, so it would have used this repeater and wouldn’t have searched for another. This also because obviously I have taken into account the results of the measurements that were obtained by the Procura and this certainly permits me to exclude that the repeater 30064 was incompatible with via Sperandio, which emerged from the other side.
Q: Are there any other clarifications that you’d like to make now?
A: No.

p166-168 questioning by prosecutor Manuela Comodi


Q: Yes, but I have to connect to the Internet.
A: No, the terminal is connected, it’s always ready to connect, if the Context is not open it opens automatically when an MMS is received otherwise the MMS would never be received.
Q: But was the MMS found in the memory?
A: I wasn’t the one to carry out these tests, the Postal Police did it.
Q: Exactly, so taking for granted that the Postal Police did not alter the contents of Meredith’s cell phone…
A: But nothing is taken for granted, because there are 3 calls missing from the list… there are also 3 items missing of the 30 memorized last calls, nobody has doubted what they have done, then there is the log, so … we have another case, on the 2nd in the afternoon when Meredith was dead…
Q: Excuse me, so we don’t take anything for granted, because this is what interests me, we don’t take anything for granted and so it’s being suggested the Postal Police deleted the MMS, and then?
A: We continue to confuse the terminology, the fact that I don’t take anything for granted is because I don’t know…
Judge Massei: Excuse me, the fact?
A: That I can’t take for granted what had been done before, because I don’t know what the Postal Police did, this does not mean that I wish to claim that they made mistakes, it just means I can’t exclude it!
Q: On the other hand I can exclude it, so excluding the possibility that the Postal Police could have deleted some potential evidence…
Defense intervention: But who decided that?
Q: I exclude it!
Judge Massei: Let’s hypothesize that this is the case, what would the question be?
Q: Hypothesizing, because I take for granted that they did not delete evidence, the absence of the MMS, other than the intentional deletion by the Postal Police, what could have caused it?
Judge Massei: Given this hypothesis that the Prosecutor says didn’t happen…
A: I’m a technician and so I can respond also hypothetically: given this hypothesis what could have caused a situation where a user who had it in his hand deleted it before the telephone was taken as evidence.
Judge Massei: Before the telephone was taken?
A: before it was handed over as evidence.
Q: So it was deleted when thrown?
A: No no, let’s not confuse things, I’m responding hypothetically to the possibility that an MMS received is no longer found on the telephone, the simplest explanation is that it was deleted, I continually delete MMS advertisements.
Q: Well, certainly not the murderer then!
Judge Massei: However let’s avoid these…
A: I’m a technician, I can’t say more than this.

p171 questioning by prosecutor Manuela Comodi

Q: To me it is, we also examined the last few days, for example the 3rd October on 6 occasions Meredith’s telephone, especially when calling abroad connects the famous cell repeater 30064, the 4th October connects one, two, three, four times, the 5th October once, but of course one would have to see what is the overall traffic, no?
A: In particular one needs to see where Meredith was.
Judge Massei: In particular where?
A: Where Meredith was when she made these calls.
Q: Where she was. Well, where do you think she was?
A: I’m not able to know, the point is this: we have to compare apples to apples and pears to pears. I can compare against objective data, measure the values, I look at the values and seeing as they automatically place themselves on a scale, I respond that it would have chosen the one with the highest value. To go on and imagine from the communications Meredith did that day using cell repeater 30064 at a certain time and at that time she was at home rather than sitting in the arena of Sant’Angelo Park, I’m not in a position to say.
Q: So your alternative is that, either she was at home, or she was in the area of Sant’Angelo Park? Sant’Angelo or sant’Antonio?
A: Sant’Angelo. The alternative is simpler, the cell repeaters offer coverage to an area and to the extent that is possible in areas in the immediate vicinity, the possibility depends on the factors that we discussed earlier which I won’t repeat. So it couldn’t have been in an area that is absolutely not covered by cell repeater 30064. So with it established that there is a residual probability in via della Pergola I’ve already said that I cannot exclude via della Pergola, but there also isn’t this probability clearly shown in the reading of the logs which tells me yes, it was certainly in via della Pergola at that time. That is to say, without having information that tells me that at that time it was certainly there, at this point I could evaluate a compatibility between the fact that it was certainly there and it used that cell repeater where I have already said that in via della Pergola there is a marginal probability as much as we want, but there was, there is, while at Sant’Angelo park I would say it’s a significant probability, it’s the most significant probability, in the sense that in most cases, unless there is some specific reason, it would always use that one.
Q: Good, so all the times that Meredith’s telephone used cell repeater 30064 you maintain that it is more likely that Meredith was in the park rather than at home, correct?
A: She could also have been at Ponte Rio, should could have been in any area covered by that cell repeater.
Q: Also at home?
A: With a marginal probability she could also have been at home, but marginally, that is to say the probability of being at home could have been due to the nearest cell repeaters being busy and in order of priority that we have established it could have used that one.
 
MichaelB

Thanks for reminding of this. I think the telephone data is an important marker as to time of death (I think this puts an upper limit of 22.00). The court had to ignore this very strong data to allow integration of the weak scream data. Evidence with no identity and uncertain timing.
 
In all fairness to Grinder's argument, I believe Rudy was only convicted of "possessing stolen goods" not burglary.

And in all fairness to me, that's what I just said ('handling' which refers to 'receiving' stolen goods.)

What needs to be understood is that handling/receiving is an offence requiring dishonesty (in my jurisdiction, almost certainly yours and very probably in Italy too). Rudy must have known or believed the goods to be stolen to be convicted. A receiver always commits theft btw. as theft is contained within the definition of receiving (handling). Therefore, it was found that he came by the laptop and phone dishonestly, knowing they were stolen goods. He either nicked them himself (not alleged) or dishonestly received them.
 
In all fairness to Grinder's argument, I believe Rudy was only convicted of "possessing stolen goods" not burglary.

If they found him guilty of burglary, they would have a much harder time arguing convincingly that Amanda stole Meredeth's money. As such, I kind of smell a rat here.
 
With all due respect Grinder, I think I'm looking at this very objectively. There is nothing that points to Rudy being a fence as opposed to a burglar. Not a single thing. But that doesn't mean he isn't a fence. But him having three laptops doesn't make him a fence. The fact that he has two of three items from a burglary that took place only days before means that a burglar he bought the laptop form sold it to him within days of the burglary. More likely is that he is the burglar. Then you have the ladies gold watch. Now we will never know for sure who that watch belong to. but you can deny the coincidence that Rudy's very next door neighbor was burglarized a couple of days earlier and is missing her mother's gold watch.

You have dismissed CT out of hand. I'm not sure if he is telling the truth or not.

That said, add all of us to the fact that Rudy was carrying the hammer and he was caught inside the nursery is is more than a pretty good indication that Rudy is a burglar.

I am more than willing to consider some evidence that Rudy is a fence instead of a burglar, but you have not provided any. I also think that the fact that Rudy is 20 years old counts against him being a fence.

I have been following your discussion with Grinder as the two of you debate whether Rudy was a burglar or a fence. I don't see evidence that he was a fence and am surprised that it is Grinder making that assertion since Grinder is the most demanding for real evidence.

If Rudy were detained with items from crimes he could not personally have committed, that would indicate he was a fence. But what he had in his possession are items that he could himself had stolen.

The fact that he loaded his favorite photo of Armani and himself as screensaver onto a laptop stolen from Perugia suggests it is something he wanted to use (retain) himself. I think that was Rudy's new laptop. Not to say he would not sell it if someone offered him a good price for it, but it is a laptop he was using and had personalized.

The fact that Rudy is connected/linked to two properties where crimes occurred and where the rock MO was used - connected by possessing items stolen from the lawyers' office and connected by prints and DNA to the cottage where Meredith was murdered and her phones and cash were stolen - suggests more that he is a burglar rather than that he was a reseller of items that someone else stole.

As acbytesla pointed out above, Rudy possessed in his backpack the little hammer which can be a tool for burglary.

What do you make of the fact that he stole the large kitchen knife at the nursery? He reportedly said he took it for protection. It is not normally an item you carry on your person for self-defense. (A pocket knife/switchblade would be better for that.).

I think the reason he possessed the lady's gold watch and several computers (desktops?) is much more likely to be that he stole them and had not found a way to sell them yet, not that he was fencing them for someone else.

Let me also ask if there is a common progression/career path. Does someone young like Rudy become a burglar and normally later, with age and connections, become a fence, or does someone become a fence and later with experience in the criminal lifestyle become a burglar?
 
Last edited:
Guede was charged with theft, receiving stolen goods and possession of a weapon.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7946289

Great link Annella,

The wording is
Guede was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released.

There is a translation also to consider.

What I find interesting is that in the back pack was
1. A large kitchen knife
2. A stolen cell phone.
3. A small hammer (suitable for tapping and breaking glass in a controlled manner)
4. A gold? watch.
5. A stolen laptop
Also suggested missing

6. Stolen money (small change from Del Prato).

Items 1 to 3 overlay all evidence at Via Pergolla
5 Not stolen at Via so suspicious to the police.
6 Suggested missing from Via

Note Rudy has a knife wound on his stomach.

Amanda seems somehow in her history disconnected from the above linkages:)
 
@ Michael

Thanks for posting those exchanges with Pellero. Boy, do they make a meal of things over there! They let expert witnesses randomly speculate outside their area of expertise as with this:

No, the connection for me, and I’m convinced of this, occurred here, while the telephone was inside Sant’Angelo Park, in the vicinity of the garden of via della Pergola and probably the reason why the telephone was thrown in the garden of via della Pergola, otherwise there wouldn’t be a reason to throw it there. For me it happened that the telephone received an MMS message, the telephone rang, whoever had the telephone remembered in that moment having a telephone which amongst other things was proof of a crime and decided to get rid of it and it was gotten rid of in the place where the person was.

He should just stick to saying where the phone was at 22.13. The rest is none of his business. He should also try harder not to refer to Lana's house as 'via della Pergola' as that renders his evidence horribly confusing. Maybe also listen and just answer the question asked, which he virtually never does.

We are losing some of the sense of this evidence because he was evidently referring to a map, presumably showing the coverage of each tower, so we can't see what other parts of the city were covered by 30064 (to answer Comodi's point that it was highly unlikely MK would be so often in the vicinity of Lana's place when making calls.

I am interested in what folks make of the deletion thing. In the course of making a point about the deleted MMS, Comodi declares the posties have deleted nothing from the phone (I like the infuriated way she does it :D). What she is saying is that, as it is highly unlikely the killer/thief would have deleted it, the inference must be that MK was still alive at 22.13 and deleted it herself. Why, if at all, is she wrong about that?
 
Our first view of the bra is in the crime scene video showing the bra near Meredith's feet with the clasp clearly missing. There are subsequent shots and closeups with the still camera. At the time of collection there is video of fingers pointing to the end where the clasp should be and audio remarks in Italian (have these ever been transcribed and translated?)

I have noted that between the time of that first video shot and the stills the bra had moved as if it were picked up and put down again but not in exactly the same spot.

Thanks, Dan. I was trying to figure out this weird report:

The fastener appeared to have been cut, rather than ripped, off the bra. "We know that it belonged to one of Miss Kercher's bras because we found a bra that was missing a fastener and it matched," the source added.

However, the fastener was not from the bloody bra which was discovered near Miss Kercher's body, and which allegedly bears traces of Guede's DNA on its strap.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1575287/DNA-link-in-Meredith-Kercher-case.html

It seemed wrong, but also oddly definite and specific. Just another dead end, I guess.

On a more productive note, we have just determined that the quantification run for the bra clasp was contaminated. For those keeping score, that's proven contamination in 3 RT-qPCR runs. Basically, this lab wasn't fit to make bathtub gin.
 
Thanks, Dan. I was trying to figure out this weird report:



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1575287/DNA-link-in-Meredith-Kercher-case.html

It seemed wrong, but also oddly definite and specific. Just another dead end, I guess.

On a more productive note, we have just determined that the quantification run for the bra clasp was contaminated. For those keeping score, that's proven contamination in 3 RT-qPCR runs. Basically, this lab wasn't fit to make bathtub gin.
That is indeed weird. He is the guy who reported De Felice (or somebody) saying they found messages from Patrick on her phone fixing a meeting. The cops, it must be remembered, also sourced a story printed by The Times on about 17 Nov 2007 about the discovery at Raf's place of timed receipts for bleach, purchased in the early hours of 02 Nov. Nobody except Michael at dot net (who claimed to have photographs of them) has ever seen these receipts which is sufficiently conclusive proof of their non-existence.
 
In looking over Bongiorno's statement at the appeal, she doesn't seem to mention EDF files.

If the missing EDF files are a smoking gun for contamination, then I find it peculiar that they aren't mentioned, or to the extent they are, aren't a focal part of the argument.

Is there a link or cite to Bongiorno expressing dismay at the missing EDF's specifically at the recent appeal?

Let's start from the beginning, though.

First, Italian law and the ECHR (requiring equality of arms) obligate the prosecution to turn over all investigatory materials. The prosecution did not do so. Further, the prosecution engaged in obstructive behavior as outlined here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HcqNZWrCPMyMfOBfHMuVpOmcFrteW82Xh5Fw-gmlWs/edit?hl=en_US

Second, the defense requested all of the lab data and Massei on July 18, 2009 ordered them to produce it. Commodi got all indignant and the prosecution proceeded to violate the order by only turning over select data which was a tiny fraction of the lab data. The prosecution then opposed the defense's ensuing motion to enforce the discovery order (and motion to dismiss for the prosecution's concealment of the lab data), and Massei acted like a ball-less wonder and let the prosecution get away with it.

As I recall, the discovery issues were renewed before Hellman.

As to Nencini, my recollection is that the defense made 20 or 30 requests which were almost all denied. Dollars to donuts one of those requests is for the lab data, which obviously would include the EDFs.

This all brings me back to a more basic point, though. What's the problem with giving a defendant access to the information that the lab has generated in the course of its investigation? Shouldn't even guilters be in favor of disclosure to defendants, since disclosure is the hallmark of a full and fair trial? At this point, the process is so non-transparent that a conviction will always be viewed as tainted.
 
Your point being that it is possible that the luminol gave a positive result but that then there was the perfect dilution so as to test negative for blood with TMB.

This is a statistical invalid.... some would even say stupid argument. About as honest and believable as that Captain who said he tripped and fell into the life boat. This logic is not scientific...it is speculation...at its worst!

TMB has a higher threshold. Luminol is more sensitive. It's just another possibility instead of turnip juice or rust. Work on those analogies.
 
griffinmill said:
In looking over Bongiorno's statement at the appeal, she doesn't seem to mention EDF files.

If the missing EDF files are a smoking gun for contamination, then I find it peculiar that they aren't mentioned, or to the extent they are, aren't a focal part of the argument.

Is there a link or cite to Bongiorno expressing dismay at the missing EDF's specifically at the recent appeal?

This all brings me back to a more basic point, though. What's the problem with giving a defendant access to the information that the lab has generated in the course of its investigation? Shouldn't even guilters be in favor of disclosure to defendants, since disclosure is the hallmark of a full and fair trial? At this point, the process is so non-transparent that a conviction will always be viewed as tainted.

But in the meantime, instead of the prosecution ending this line of inquiry by simply pointing to where they'd been turned over, the conversation is switched to the defence, as if it is the defence's obligation.

The main point is - did Stefanoni or the Mignini prosecution do in Perugia what the RIS Carabinieiri and the Crini prosecution did in Florence?

No. The RIS Carabinieri handed over everything, and that ended this line of discussion.

Not only did sample 36i on the knife blade belong to Knox, all the data was there to demonstrate it.

Here it is 2014 and we're still debating if Stefanoni handed over what was required to be handed over regardless of what the defence said.
 
With all due respect Grinder, I think I'm looking at this very objectively. There is nothing that points to Rudy being a fence as opposed to a burglar. Not a single thing. But that doesn't mean he isn't a fence. But him having three laptops doesn't make him a fence. The fact that he has two of three items from a burglary that took place only days before means that a burglar he bought the laptop form sold it to him within days of the burglary.

That's what they do - they get rid of stuff fast - they sell, trade or front the stuff.


More likely is that he is the burglar. Then you have the ladies gold watch. Now we will never know for sure who that watch belong to. but you can deny the coincidence that Rudy's very next door neighbor was burglarized a couple of days earlier and is missing her mother's gold watch.

You can't provide a second source other than a True Crime Novel and even if everything reported is true the only known fact is that Rudi had the gold watch (not matched) just as he would if he were fencing it.

You have dismissed CT out of hand. I'm not sure if he is telling the truth or not.

No I didn't out of hand. I showed that he much like the witnesses against that we don't trust only came forward AFTER Rudi's picture was in the papers. His claim that he found the perp and punished him by banning him from a couple doesn't ring true and even less so when it turns out Rudi was in those clubs a month later. You can't honestly say if CT's story pointed to the kids' guilt you would believe it.

That said, add all of us to the fact that Rudy was carrying the hammer and he was caught inside the nursery is is more than a pretty good indication that Rudy is a burglar.

As I have said the hammer is the single best evidence, however it doesn't fit your MO of the big rock or a second story job. Those are used more for breaking into a car AFAIK.

I am more than willing to consider some evidence that Rudy is a fence instead of a burglar, but you have not provided any. I also think that the fact that Rudy is 20 years old counts against him being a fence.

He possesses stolen merchandise as a fence does. The Spanish story had a stash of laptops as a fence would have. He was in the nursery and only had a cheap kitchen knife that clearly wasn't taken for it's monetary value and some petty cash. Just the fact that he slept there makes him look like he isn't a burglar as they are in and out. There is no evidence that he entered the nursery in any other way than the one he described. He was let in by the guy that robbed the place before.

IIRC he was charged with possessing stolen property and nothing else. Maybe he was also charged with the equivalent of trespass.
 
I withdrew the Gould reference due to not reading it carefully.
A motivated PIP person to me is someone who sees innocence screaming at them. Yes the word person is redundant. I never made up labels, I don't like them but they are convenient.

Here is an abstract

Research Article


Effect of ethanol upon gastric emptying.

S E Kaufman,
M D Kaye


Abstract

The effect of ethanol upon gastric emptying in healthy human subjects was studied by measuring the gastric emptying rates of three 750 ml meals, the osmolalities, energy densities, and pH of which were similar. Meal A, which contained 80 ml alcohol, emptied more rapidly than meal B, which contained 40 ml ethanol and 63.3 g dextrose; and meal B emptied more rapidly than meal C, which contained 126.6 g dextrose but no ethanol. The slower rate of emptying of the dextrose meal (C) was not due to an increased gastric secretory rate, as serial measurements of gastric pH were substantially and significantly higher with this than with the other two meals; nor was it due to a greater degree of duodenogastric reflux, as serial measurements of gastric bile acid concentrations were similar for the three meals. We conclude that the duodenal osmoreceptor mechanism is relatively insensitive to ethanol; that the relationship between energy density and gastric emptying rate does not hold in the case of ethanol; and that the gastro-oesophageal reflux which occurs in response to ethanol is not due to impairment of gastric emptying.


I know this abstract does not demonstrate the effect of a hangover, but hardly supports your intuition that delay is a consequence.

There are 7 thousand studies to work through of combos and permutations of gastric emptying in this one link.

http://gut.bmj.com/search?fulltext=gastric+emptying&submit=yes&x=15&y=4

We are coming from opposite directions. I am trying to understand how she could still have a full stomach at 9pm, and think death can be proved about then, and Raf's alibi is absolutely superb, while you appear to see infinite gastric delay possible from a start point of full stomach, though I note you discount 11 30pm death from digestive evidence. I am sure this gap can be closed in Raf's favour, and thus also for his accomplice.

It doesn't address the effects of a major hangover at all. I'm sure that you can prove to yourself that she had to be dead before she reached home. The problem with the GE analysis is it just doesn't eliminate the possibilty she was alive past 9:45 (let's wait for Rudi's scream time - the only truth he tells :rolleyes:)

If you believe that Lalli did a good job and there was no chyme in the duodenum then she hadn't started for 1 1/2 to 3 hours depending on the time of the meal. The graph starts at 9 - only people that haven't started by 9 count. What percentage that haven't started by 9 would last another 45 minutes to an hour? Given that the start time isn't definite this poses quite a problem.

I believe the Indian trial would be the best except they didn't look at the duodenum.
 
That's what they do - they get rid of stuff fast - they sell, trade or front the stuff.
Possibly..but not necessarily. The closer in time frame that it is to the actual burglary makes it more likely that the person is the actual burglar than someone he sold it to.
Also a fence is a business guy. More likely to be older and more experienced. More likely to have a storefront. Less likely to put himself in a position to be arrested or drawn attention to. Not likely to be found inside a nursery. Not likely to have stolen a knife on him. Not likely to be carrying around a hammer.
You can't provide a second source other than a True Crime Novel and even if everything reported is true the only known fact is that Rudi had the gold watch (not matched) just as he would if he were fencing it.
You're right I can't...but there is nothing to back up your contention that Rudy is buying and selling stolen goods. The fact is that the available clues point to Rudy being a burglar as opposed to a fence Add in the cottage and it is a slam dunk.

Face it, Rudy is absolutely connected to two break ins in four days. The nursery and the cottage unless you believe the nonsense that the cottage was staged. He has stolen goods from another break in and maybe a fourth and CT accuses him in a fifth. And considering that Rudy is in a nursery that was burglarized a month before, that makes a possible SIX. Far too many coincidences to dismiss.

At some point you have to come to the conclusion that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..it's a duck.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom