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Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I thought that might be the point - although it is silly to use paparazzi magazine shots as proof of anything as they are all tweaked and mirrored so that they look their best on the page. And I think lots of people swap their bag side, depending on whether their shoulder/arm is aching so don't really agree with that argument and a far better argument is that Amanda is not a fat middle aged woman with a moustache

My argument with the car park image is that we cannot tell who it is but that the handbag on the arm that Amanda rarely carries it on makes in unlikely to be her. Not matter what though, the image simply lacks detail to say anything definitive.
 
[qimg]http://amradaronline.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/amanda-knox-boyfriend.jpg[/qimg]

Amanda displays casual elegance as she demonstrates versatility. She will hang that bag on any shoulder she chooses. Is there an app to do mirror images?;)
 
You are assuming that the police were not on Rudy's side.
 
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"It is just far more likely they made a mistake and then did not want to own up to it.

As well, informant or not, just about any police force will throw you to the wolves if you murder somebody."

Well what exactly was that mistake they made?
Did they think it was so obvious that the break in was staged that they believed they had found proof that Amanda did the the fake broken window and she did this after killing Meredith, and it was obvious that she did this to make it look like someone who did not have a key could get in there?



Rudy was in jail up in Germany. If they decided to throw him to the wolves he would talk about how they got him out of the jail in Milan so he could go to Perugia and kill Meredith.
 
"It is just far more likely they made a mistake and then did not want to own up to it.

As well, informant or not, just about any police force will throw you to the wolves if you murder somebody."

Well what exactly was that mistake they made?
Did they think it was so obvious that the break in was staged that they believed they had found proof that Amanda did the the fake broken window and she did this after killing Meredith, and it was obvious that she did this to make it look like someone who did not have a key could get in there?



Rudy was in jail up in Germany. If they decided to throw him to the wolves he would talk about how they got him out of the jail in Milan so he could go to Perugia and kill Meredith.
As for me....

I will need some persuading to accept this "Rudy ws a police informant" theory, because I agree - there would have to be something else operating here other than that they basically let him go in Milan.

As pointed out on GroundReport, Judge Nencini virtually spills the beans on this.... saying in his motivations that one of the reason why the break in had to have been staged, is that Rudy would not stage something to look like what cops already knew to be his signature style.

Granted there's a lot of smoke surrounding this conspiracy theory, but it's hard to find the fire - mainly because it was never investigated and a baseline of facts just simply is not there.
 
I thought that might be the point - although it is silly to use paparazzi magazine shots as proof of anything as they are all tweaked and mirrored so that they look their best on the page. And I think lots of people swap their bag side, depending on whether their shoulder/arm is aching so don't really agree with that argument and a far better argument is that Amanda is not a fat middle aged woman with a moustache
:D
Maybe to you and me but not to the likes of Stilicho. His lot will seize on anything as if with the desperation of a drowning man. It's almost as though they aren't winning, which is really peculiar.

One of the best things about Nonsencini is that he is beyond the pale even for the PGPs. Their slavish incantations of the majesty of Italian jurisprudence (er … Hellman excepted of course) have all gone up in smoke in 377 pages of drivel. Ha ha ha.
 
[qimg]http://amradaronline.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/amanda-knox-boyfriend.jpg[/qimg]

What I love about this is that Sherlock finds ONE photo of Knox having her bag on her left shoulder... this where every other photo, including the magazine which ran this story, has it the other way. Which, then, is more probable?

It is also interesting that this is where the debate is, as NancyS implies. Lacking a time of death for the victim, lacking anything to say that the latest convicting judge thinks women have Y-genetic material.... someone combs the internet to find a rare photo to buttress a completely non-interesting fact, about a photo of someone else in a car-park.

I wonder what lurkers think?
 
Hopeless. I don't know why I bother, sometimes.


Carry on.

Why call in briefly without contributing to the evidence explored by the thread:confused:

ETA your link contributed evidentially, but Bill was completely on topic.
 
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:D
Maybe to you and me but not to the likes of Stilicho. His lot will seize on anything as if with the desperation of a drowning man. It's almost as though they aren't winning, which is really peculiar.

One of the best things about Nonsencini is that he is beyond the pale even for the PGPs. Their slavish incantations of the majesty of Italian jurisprudence (er … Hellman excepted of course) have all gone up in smoke in 377 pages of drivel. Ha ha ha.

Machiavelli said in a rare foray here just after the release of the Nencini motivations....

..... that it was an improvement on Massei's theory. Then Machiavelli disappeared. I guess even Machiavelli knows what "amica" means....

..... and if Machiavelli cannot compose some complicated dietrology to maintain that woman have Y-genetic material, then no one can. You should have seen the rhetorical knots he had to tie to get "I was there" to be understood as Knox confessing.... it had something to do with she and her mother speaking Mafia code. Or the bit about all of Seattle practising Mafia Omerta so as to hide the ugly truth of an April Fools prank...

But as long as Mignini is out of trouble, as happened in March, then Machiavelli has no real need to post here any more.
 
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There is an interesting short article in this week's Lawyers' Weekly (link should take you straight to pp. 14-15 where the article is located) about the use of the Reid Technique of interrogation and how it is fraught with difficulties because it so often results in procuring false confessions (which has long been known in my jurisdiction) and, more interestingly (because this part isn't so well known), in procuring false accusations or recanting of exculpatory evidence, not from the accused but from witnesses.

In this particular case, it appears that the Reid Technique was used on two witnesses to get them to change their evidence to (a) positively identify the accused as the shooter, even though the one witness had previously excluded the accused as the shooter; and (b) recant the evidence that provided an alibi for the accused, initially given by the second witness.

The court held that the psychological coerciveness of the police interviews rendered the "new" statements involuntary, unreliable and, therefore, inadmissible.




Oh, and the article mentions that the length of the coercive interviews that resulted in the police procuring their desired (but unreliable) results were 3 hours for one of the witnesses, 8 hours for the other.

I'd love to read that but all I get is a page that says it's a restricted site and that I need to be an authorised subscriber to read it. How did everyone else manage to read it? Are you all subscribers to Lawyers Weekly?
 
Did the CSC specify the outcome it desired?

LashL,

Good to hear from you again. Here are two translations of a passage from the conclusion of the report by the Court of Supreme Cassation in 2013. we have talked about before. IIRC, you thought that they were incompatible (my choice of words) with each other. Would you care to expand on that? My main interest is in whether or not the CSC is telling the next court to convict, a critical point IMO. The key sentence begins, "The outcome..." in each case.

"In conclusion, the contested judgment is set aside for the many profiles highlighting the shortcomings, contradictions and manifest lack of logic, mentioned above. The Court of Review must therefore remedy, in its broadest powers of discretion, the critical aspects of argumentation, operating a global and unitary examination of evidence, through which examination is to be ascertained where the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as in the overall assessment each clue is added to and integrated with others. The outcome of this assessment will be crucial not only to osmotically demonstrate the presence of the two defendants in the locus delicti commissi, but possibly to delineate the subjective position of the co-conspirators of Guede, in the face of the range of hypothetical situations, ranging from agreement on genetic option of death, to the modification of a program that initially contemplated only the involvement of the young English woman in an unwanted sex game, to the forcing of an erotic game pushed by the group, which blew up out of control."

"In conclusion, the challenged judgment must be annulled due to the numerous deficiencies, contradictions and manifest lack of logic indicated above. Using the broadest faculty of evaluation, the remanded judge will have to remedy the flaws in argumentation by conducting a uniform and global analysis of the evidence, through which it will have to be ascertained whether the relative ambiguity of each piece of evidence can be resolved, as each piece of evidence sums up and integrates with the others in the overall assessment. The outcome of such an organic evaluation will be decisive, not only to demonstrate the presence of the two defendants at the crime scene, but also possibly to clarify the subjective role of the people who committed this murder with Guede, against a range of possible scenarios, going from an original plan to kill to a change in the plan which was initially aimed only at involving the young English girl in a sexual game against her will to an act with the sole intention of forcing her into a wild group erotic game which violently took another course, getting out of control."
 
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false confessions/accusations

Why call in briefly without contributing to the evidence explored by the thread:confused:
Samson,

LashL contributed a potentially interesting link yesterday on police interrogations, although I cannot access it without membership of some kind. She also sent me a couple of links to Canadian cases of false confessions/accusations some time ago. I hope I still have them, because Bill Williams might want them.
 
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Samson,

LashL contributed an interesting link yesterday on police interrogations. She also sent me a couple of links to Canadian cases of false confessions/accusations some time ago. I hope I still have them, because Bill Williams might want them.
Maybe my Eta post dated your post, but I was of the opinion that Bill's post, including the wiki link was authentic, and I thought LashL was simply wrong in her response.
 
Samson,

LashL contributed a potentially interesting link yesterday on police interrogations, although I cannot access it without membership of some kind. She also sent me a couple of links to Canadian cases of false confessions/accusations some time ago. I hope I still have them, because Bill Williams might want them.
There's a notorious Regina, Saskatchewan, case where some teenagers caved in to the cops, confessing to a rape they did not do. It was the Reid Technique.

Later when asked why someone would confess to a rape he'd not done and was nowhere near, the kid said, "it's like they break your will or something. Next thing I knew I was thinking, why not..... and I heard myself confessing."

The fortunate part was the kids were eventually let go.
 
Great fashion shot Sherlock, she's a proper Femme Fatale that Knox, I guess you're admiring her handbag - although I'm finding the red trousers are the stand out item for me, what a hipster!. Is your point that this picture somehow proves your theory that Knox was innocent of murder, but too scared of Guede to call the police and instead staged the crime scene and then covered for Guede even though it meant four years in prison?

Crackerjack theory, that. Lots of sharp and cogent thinking going on, there...
 
There's a notorious Regina, Saskatchewan, case where some teenagers caved in to the cops, confessing to a rape they did not do. It was the Reid Technique.

Later when asked why someone would confess to a rape he'd not done and was nowhere near, the kid said, "it's like they break your will or something. Next thing I knew I was thinking, why not..... and I heard myself confessing."

The fortunate part was the kids were eventually let go.


Yes. The key psychological elements underpinning the Reid Technique (and other similar interrogation techniques) are specifically designed to elicit these sorts of responses and behaviours. That's precisely why they are grotequely improper and misleading so regularly.

In these sorts of techniques, the suspect is basically told that it's a given fact that they committed the crime (usually accompanied by a (often false) claim that the police have all the evidence they need to prove this). The basis of the interrogation then becomes not if the suspect committed the crime, but why. Once the suspect fails to realise the inherent assumption behind the "why" line of questioning (the assumption being that the suspect did in fact commit the crime), then it becomes progressively easier for the interrogator to subconsciously convince the suspect that yes, (s)he really did commit the crime, and the only question remaining is why.

Indeed, police using these sorts of techniques often (and erroneously) reason that if they ask a question like "What was going through your mind when you stabbed Mr X?" and the suspect doesn't vehemently reply with something like "But I didn't stab Mr X", this in itself is a pointer to guilt. In other words, if the response to that question is something like "I don't know, I don't remember any of this", many interrogators see this as some sort of positive indicator of guilt.

These techniques then go on to use a battery of psychological tricks and bluffs to bamboozle, confuse and lead a suspect. For example, once suspects are sufficiently disoriented, they are often given "lesser of two evils" choices (e.g. "Do you regret stabbing Mr X, or are you still really glad you did it?"). In addition, these techniques are pretty much always framed with elements of catharsis ("You'll feel so much better when you get all this off your chest") and ways to present the crime to the suspect in a manner that appears to excuse or minimise the suspect's psychological guilt (e.g. Mr X goaded you until you just snapped, didn't he? I bet most people in your shoes would have reacted as you did by stabbing him"). And any deviation from the required path towards confession is carefully closed off, with the suspect quickly steered back onto the "correct" path.

Of course, as proper psychiatrists and psychologists know all too well, the potent combination of fear, intimidation, deference to authority figures, placement in unusual surroundings, and the sheer gravity of the situation, all add up to the very real prospect of suspects under interrogation - particularly those who have had no prior dealings with law enforcement investigations - becoming malleable and ultimately horrifically coerced. Most people who have produced false confessions as a result of these interrogation techniques say much the same thing in retrospect:

a) they felt they had no choice but to say they did it;

b) they became convinced that things would actually be better for them if they did say they did it;

c) they became convinced that they must have done it (usually because of deference to the authority of the interrogators who claim proof of their guilt), and therefore became convinced that their mind was playing tricks on them (i.e. that they actually had "false memories" of not having committed the crime!);

d) they felt that at least one of the interrogators was on their side, and that they (they interrogators) were actually helping them (the suspect) to get the best possible outcome for them (the suspect);

e) they felt a palpable sense of relief when they confessed;

f) they felt that they had acted entirely of their own free will.


And all of the above is, in a nutshell, why the Reid Technique, and all similar interrogation techniques, are an appallingly unreliable and improper way to interrogate suspects. Its defenders say that such techniques are extremely effective at getting genuinely guilty people to confess - and this is absolutely true. But they are also very clearly effective in getting a significant proportion of wholly-innocent people to make false confessions. Therefore, it's more-or-less irrelevant how good these techniques are at getting guilty people to make true confessions. The fact that they also regularly get innocent people to make false confessions means that they are categorically unfit for purpose, and must not be used under any circumstances.
 
Nice post LJ

And for the simple-minded there is always Giobbi, who boasted of their methods being so good they don't even need evidence! What could these methods be? Maybe there is a police manual. In fact, there must be one. I wonder whether it has a chapter on chamomile tea and cakes.
 
What I love about this is that Sherlock finds ONE photo of Knox having her bag on her left shoulder... this where every other photo, including the magazine which ran this story, has it the other way. Which, then, is more probable?

It is also interesting that this is where the debate is, as NancyS implies. Lacking a time of death for the victim, lacking anything to say that the latest convicting judge thinks women have Y-genetic material.... someone combs the internet to find a rare photo to buttress a completely non-interesting fact, about a photo of someone else in a car-park.

I wonder what lurkers think?

Let's face the facts here . Sherlock proved everyone wrong. AmandA carried her bag on both sides, thus proving her guilty of murder.
 
I'd love to read that but all I get is a page that says it's a restricted site and that I need to be an authorised subscriber to read it. How did everyone else manage to read it? Are you all subscribers to Lawyers Weekly?


Regarding Lawyer's Weekly article concerning Reid Technique, I could read it yesterday but today the link takes me to a subscriber only page. I googled it, however, and found another path to the article. Try http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&volume=34&number=5&article=4
 
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