Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

Guede was charged with theft, receiving stolen goods and possession of a weapon.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7946289

That was a 2009 article about the kids' trial not the trial of Rudy in 2013.

 

[Grinder]

MichaelB

Thanks for reminding of this. I think the telephone data is an important marker as to time of death (I think this puts an upper limit of 22.00). The court had to ignore this very strong data to allow integration of the weak scream data. Evidence with no identity and uncertain timing.

Yes. In addition to the 10:13 call there were the strange calls around 10. While GE can't nail down a time these calls definitely put an end time on the murder.

 

[Grinder]

I have been following your discussion with Grinder as the two of you debate whether Rudy was a burglar or a fence. I don't see evidence that he was a fence and am surprised that it is Grinder making that assertion since Grinder is the most demanding for real evidence.

If Rudy were detained with items from crimes he could not personally have committed, that would indicate he was a fence. But what he had in his possession are items that he could himself had stolen.

Really if someone is caught with stolen merchandise he has to prove he couldn't have stolen them? Sounds Italian to me.

The fact that he loaded his favorite photo of Armani and himself as screensaver onto a laptop stolen from Perugia suggests it is something he wanted to use (retain) himself. I think that was Rudy's new laptop. Not to say he would not sell it if someone offered him a good price for it, but it is a laptop he was using and had personalized.

The brilliant Anglo made the point that he would put his personal picture on it in order to look as if it was his if checked by the police. He would remove it when he sold it. That access he needed would be an easy way for him to know where it was stolen.

The fact that Rudy is connected/linked to two properties where crimes occurred and where the rock MO was used - connected by possessing items stolen from the lawyers' office and connected by prints and DNA to the cottage where Meredith was murdered and her phones and cash were stolen - suggests more that he is a burglar rather than that he was a reseller of items that someone else stole.

Maybe but he wasn't connected to the lawyers' office. We all know he was in the cottage. Why didn't he have anything of significant value from the nursery? Do burglars commonly overnight in businesses they have broken into?

As acbytesla pointed out above, Rudy possessed in his backpack the little hammer which can be a tool for burglary.

Noted. But the little hammer isn't for second story jobs but rather car break-ins.

What do you make of the fact that he stole the large kitchen knife at the nursery? He reportedly said he took it for protection. It is not normally an item you carry on your person for self-defense. (A pocket knife/switchblade would be better for that.).

It is clear evidence he didn't carry a knife and throws more doubt on CT's story. He was let in and feared that the underworld character that did it could come back. Certainly you don't think it was stolen for resale. I believe he took it for protection while sleeping.

I think the reason he possessed the lady's gold watch and several computers (desktops?) is much more likely to be that he stole them and had not found a way to sell them yet, not that he was fencing them for someone else.

I'm glad you think that but burglars usually get rid of stuff fast. I doubt they were desk towers but we don't know for sure.

Let me also ask if there is a common progression/career path. Does someone young like Rudy become a burglar and normally later, with age and connections, become a fence, or does someone become a fence and later with experience in the criminal lifestyle become a burglar?

I don't know if there is a normal career path.

 

[Grinder]

Great link Annella,

The wording is
Guede was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released.

There is a translation also to consider.

What I find interesting is that in the back pack was
1. A large kitchen knife
2. A stolen cell phone.
3. A small hammer (suitable for tapping and breaking glass in a controlled manner)
4. A gold? watch.
5. A stolen laptop
Also suggested missing

6. Stolen money (small change from Del Prato).

Items 1 to 3 overlay all evidence at Via Pergolla
5 Not stolen at Via so suspicious to the police.
6 Suggested missing from Via

Note Rudy has a knife wound on his stomach.

Amanda seems somehow in her history disconnected from the above linkages

Guede was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released.

It was those fingerprint records that eventually nailed Guede to the scene of Meredith Kercher's murder. His bloody palm print was found on a pillow under Kercher's dead body​

.

Do you believe that it was the fingerprint at the Milan jail led to his arrest?

It was reported at the time that it was his alien card that had his prints.

Was he charged with theft of the knife or the computer according to this?

Was Ann in Italy at this time?

ETA - is there a source for the stomach wound?

Guede was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released.

I thought that only the PM could charge him. Perhaps Ann is saying that Prado accused him of theft which makes sense. Do you think he was a suspect and had an attorney provided?

 

[Desert Fox]

Grinder:
I am not sure where you are going. We are not arguing so much at a court of law level standard but that RG is probably a burglar and probably not a fence.
Really still not sure, even after your answer, why it matters so much. The evidence putting him at the scene of MK rape and murder where that guilt is pretty much certain.
I would argue that it does not really matter if they did arrest him and hold him.
He was a ticking time bomb where he would have eventually committed a rape and murder. I am quite afraid that soon after being released that he will do it again as well.

 

[theaudioengine]

On a more productive note, we have just determined that the quantification run for the bra clasp was contaminated. For those keeping score, that's proven contamination in 3 RT-qPCR runs. Basically, this lab wasn't fit to make bathtub gin.

I'm de-lurking because the work of Diocletus seems to have revealed some of the most important recent revelations in this case, and yet I don't know whether they are being acted upon by the defense. Does anyone know if this information (i.e. that the contamination *can* be proven) has explicitly been communicated to them?

 

[AmyStrange]

street creds

-

So you are getting more cred by admitting you are a thief. Was it you that admitted doing things illegal when young...

-

I believe that was me originally Grinder,

d

-

 

[acbytesla]

Maybe but he wasn't connected to the lawyers' office. We all know he was in the cottage. Why didn't he have anything of significant value from the nursery? Do burglars commonly overnight in businesses they have broken into?

What do you think is of significant value in a nursery/daycare? The finger paints?

 

[Desert Fox]

Grinder:
I am not sure where you are going. We are not arguing so much at a court of law level standard but that RG is probably a burglar and probably not a fence.
Really still not sure, even after your answer, why it matters so much. The evidence putting him at the scene of MK rape and murder where that guilt is pretty much certain.
I would argue that it does not really matter if they did arrest him and hold him.
He was a ticking time bomb where he would have eventually committed a rape and murder. I am quite afraid that soon after being released that he will do it again as well.

 

[Planigale]

I wish we could loan Grinder to PMF to bring a little discipline to the pro guilt case.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder:
I am not sure where you are going. We are not arguing so much at a court of law level standard but that RG is probably a burglar and probably not a fence.
Really still not sure, even after your answer, why it matters so much. The evidence putting him at the scene of MK rape and murder where that guilt is pretty much certain.
I would argue that it does not really matter if they did arrest him and hold him.
He was a ticking time bomb where he would have eventually committed a rape and murder. I am quite afraid that soon after being released that he will do it again as well.

It's not important at all. None of this is. I was tired of the echo chamber assumptions and still am. He was a "one man crime wave" based on very little. The gold watch story repeated ad nauseum based on one True Crime Novel account.

He was a ticking time bomb based on what? Even if all the allegations are true I don't see anything that would indicate he was going to rape and kill someone.

As I've said before I think the Kokomani story makes no sense. I don't believe he was there just looking at the view eating olives - maybe you do.

I have never doubted Rudi's involvement but I've never been sure he was alone. That doesn't mean I suspect the kids. The knife through the neck made me think of a trained killer. Did an Albanian kill her and not leave behind anything the PLE found? Who did the fingerprints and DNA that went unidentified belong to?

From RW we learned that Rudi had a phone (SIM card) and a stash of computers. Does that not change anything?

Could he been a burglar that sold what he stole? Yes. Could he have been part of burglary ring? Yes. Could Koko and other Albanians been working with him? Yes.

The sad thing is that the Italians didn't do a good job of figuring out what his immediate past had been.

 

[Grinder]

I wish we could loan Grinder to PMF to bring a little discipline to the pro guilt case.

 

[Poppy1016]

I'm de-lurking because the work of Diocletus seems to have revealed some of the most important recent revelations in this case, and yet I don't know whether they are being acted upon by the defense. Does anyone know if this information (i.e. that the contamination *can* be proven) has explicitly been communicated to them?

Excellent question. And if this hasn't been communicated to them, how can someone get this accomplished?

 

[acbytesla]

It's not important at all. None of this is. I was tired of the echo chamber assumptions and still am. He was a "one man crime wave" based on very little. The gold watch story repeated ad nauseum based on one True Crime Novel account.

He was a ticking time bomb based on what? Even if all the allegations are true I don't see anything that would indicate he was going to rape and kill someone.

As I've said before I think the Kokomani story makes no sense. I don't believe he was there just looking at the view eating olives - maybe you do.

I have never doubted Rudi's involvement but I've never been sure he was alone. That doesn't mean I suspect the kids. The knife through the neck made me think of a trained killer. Did an Albanian kill her and not leave behind anything the PLE found? Who did the fingerprints and DNA that went unidentified belong to?

From RW we learned that Rudi had a phone (SIM card) and a stash of computers. Does that not change anything?

Could he been a burglar that sold what he stole? Yes. Could he have been part of burglary ring? Yes. Could Koko and other Albanians been working with him? Yes.

The sad thing is that the Italians didn't do a good job of figuring out what his immediate past had been.

While I agree with you that Koko may have also been a thief, I see no evidence that he was involved at the cottage. You can dismiss the burglary at Ms. Diaz because we have no confirmation outside of Nina. But in many years I have never seen her account disputed by anyone until you recently.

If you conclude that all of these stories are true, you have to seriously consider that Rudy was a ticking time bomb. The reason I say that is not because burglars escalate to violence. In fact most don't. But because certain kinds of burglars are known to escalate into violence. The FBI refers to them as "sexual burglars". These do it as much for the "thrill" as they do for the cash.

Most burglars get in and out of their victims homes in under ten minutes. They usually head straight to the master bedroom going for jewelry and the expensive items. They avoid basements or anywhere they could get cornered. They prefer single story houses to second story homes because the master bedroom is more likely located on the second story. They usually burglarize in the daytime when it is less likely that someone is home.
They don't want to encounter the homeowner..ever.

But the reports are that the burglars in all these cases did pretty much the opposite. They "hung out". They even cooked. Most of these incidents were at night. All these things actually increase the chance of getting caught or encountering the homeowner.

In the US, burglarizing a residence while someone is home is considered "aggravated burglary" and the sentence for this is much higher. The reason is because of the possibility/probability of violence is much higher.

PS: I have no problem with you pushing back against the echo chamber.

 

[Desert Fox]

He was a ticking time bomb based on what? Even if all the allegations are true I don't see anything that would indicate he was going to rape and kill someone.

Based on the little pieces of evidence such as eating food in the places he robbed and using their bathrooms, that indicates a certain kind of burglar.
Read some writings from interviews with police detectives who speak about this.

Maybe I am wrong and I hope I am wrong. Still, I am afraid that this crime shows a very dangerous person.

 

[codyjuneau]

@ Michael

Thanks for posting those exchanges with Pellero. Boy, do they make a meal of things over there! They let expert witnesses randomly speculate outside their area of expertise as with this:


Q: But was the MMS found in the memory?
A: I wasn’t the one to carry out these tests, the Postal Police did it.
Q: Exactly, so taking for granted that the Postal Police did not alter the contents of Meredith’s cell phone…
A: But nothing is taken for granted, because there are 3 calls missing from the list… there are also 3 items missing of the 30 memorized last calls, nobody has doubted what they have done, then there is the log, so … we have another case, on the 2nd in the afternoon when Meredith was dead…
Q: Excuse me, so we don’t take anything for granted, because this is what interests me, we don’t take anything for granted and so it’s being suggested the Postal Police deleted the MMS, and then?
No, the connection for me, and I’m convinced of this, occurred here, while the telephone was inside Sant’Angelo Park, in the vicinity of the garden of via della Pergola and probably the reason why the telephone was thrown in the garden of via della Pergola, otherwise there wouldn’t be a reason to throw it there. For me it happened that the telephone received an MMS message, the telephone rang, whoever had the telephone remembered in that moment having a telephone which amongst other things was proof of a crime and decided to get rid of it and it was gotten rid of in the place where the person was.

He should just stick to saying where the phone was at 22.13. The rest is none of his business. He should also try harder not to refer to Lana's house as 'via della Pergola' as that renders his evidence horribly confusing. Maybe also listen and just answer the question asked, which he virtually never does.

We are losing some of the sense of this evidence because he was evidently referring to a map, presumably showing the coverage of each tower, so we can't see what other parts of the city were covered by 30064 (to answer Comodi's point that it was highly unlikely MK would be so often in the vicinity of Lana's place when making calls.
I am interested in what folks make of the deletion thing. In the course of making a point about the deleted MMS, Comodi declares the posties have deleted nothing from the phone (I like the infuriated way she does it ). What she is saying is that, as it is highly unlikely the killer/thief would have deleted it, the inference must be that MK was still alive at 22.13 and deleted it herself. Why, if at all, is she wrong about that?

.
Hi Anglo

I echo your thanks to Michael for posting that testimony, and I also noticed the witness speculations.

The arrogance of Commodi is amazing. I was struck by the section where Commodi simply asserts that the Police did not delete any of the 3 missing messages. It reminds me of her statement to the effect that 'we will decide what evidence is presented, not the defense'. Commodi is the questioner (Q) in the following snippet:

A: That I can’t take for granted what had been done before, because I don’t know what the Postal Police did, this does not mean that I wish to claim that they made mistakes, it just means I can’t exclude it!
Q: On the other hand I can exclude it, so excluding the possibility that the Postal Police could have deleted some potential evidence…
Defense intervention: But who decided that?
Q: I exclude it!
Judge Massei: Let’s hypothesize that this is the case, what would the question be?

Despite Commodi's assertion, if I am understanding the witness correctly, he goes on to point out that 1 of the 3 missing messages was a message received on the afternoon of Nov 2 after Meredith was dead, and presumably while the telephones were in police hands. That implies that the Police did delete at least 1 of the 3 messages, so quite possibly all of them, but the court simply continues on with the hypothesis that the Police did not delete any of the messages. Once again, Commodi is the questioner (Q) in the following snippet:

Q: Exactly, so taking for granted that the Postal Police did not alter the contents of Meredith’s cell phone…
A: But nothing is taken for granted, because there are 3 calls missing from the list… there are also 3 items missing of the 30 memorized last calls, nobody has doubted what they have done, then there is the log, so … we have another case, on the 2nd in the afternoon when Meredith was dead…

Cody
.

 

[Bill Williams]

I'm de-lurking because the work of Diocletus seems to have revealed some of the most important recent revelations in this case, and yet I don't know whether they are being acted upon by the defense. Does anyone know if this information (i.e. that the contamination *can* be proven) has explicitly been communicated to them?

Whether or not contamination can be proven....

I'm not sure what people want. Why move the judicial goalposts for the demand that contamination has to be proven...

.... when no less than Stefanoni herself describes in 2009 four possible routes of contamination - forcing Massei to at least have to make excuses for them all in his motivations report?

Well, all except the 118 medical staff who themselves could be the source of bringing Raffeale's into the room and blood smudges out into the hall...

I mean is the playing field so tilted against Raffaele and Amanda that the 118 staff can simply be waved away?

Apparently so.

 

[stilicho]

Exact Words...

....

Sollecito HAS NEVER WITHDRAWN the alibi for Amanda Knox.

....

Here's the precise Italian phrase used by Sollecito in front of Judge Matteini:

Non sono certo se Amanda è uscita quella sera, non io ricordo.

That is a withdrawal and it was made in front of a judge. Your claim is false.

In the meantime, the Sollecito family is vigorously defending itself by leaking further incriminating CCTV footage to the popular Italian magazine OGGI, as reported in this on-line summary:

http://www.articolotre.com/2014/06/caso-mez-un-video-potrebbe-scagionare-amanda-knox/

The images may or may not be Knox: who's to know? But the source is undeniably the Sollecitos, with their access to the complete case file, and the intent is to continue to call into question Amanda's claim that she was at Raffaele's apartment for the duration.

With any luck they'll eventually leak the photographs of Amanda's cell phone that indicate Patrick's name was not on the SMS as confirmed during Ficarra's testimony.

Knox continues to publicly claim that she could not be the murderer because her DNA wasn't found inside Meredith's room. Guess whose DNA was found there on an article of Meredith's undergarments? This is why the Sollecitos are unhappy with Amanda right now.

 

[acbytesla]

Here's the precise Italian phrase used by Sollecito in front of Judge Matteini:

Non sono certo se Amanda è uscita quella sera, non io ricordo.

That is a withdrawal and it was made in front of a judge. Your claim is false.

In the meantime, the Sollecito family is vigorously defending itself by leaking further incriminating CCTV footage to the popular Italian magazine OGGI, as reported in this on-line summary:

http://www.articolotre.com/2014/06/caso-mez-un-video-potrebbe-scagionare-amanda-knox/

The images may or may not be Knox: who's to know? But the source is undeniably the Sollecitos, with their access to the complete case file, and the intent is to continue to call into question Amanda's claim that she was at Raffaele's apartment for the duration.

With any luck they'll eventually leak the photographs of Amanda's cell phone that indicate Patrick's name was not on the SMS as confirmed during Ficarra's testimony.

Knox continues to publicly claim that she could not be the murderer because her DNA wasn't found inside Meredith's room. Guess whose DNA was found there on an article of Meredith's undergarments? This is why the Sollecitos are unhappy with Amanda right now.

Good luck with that Stillcho. I notice your source for everything is the fake wiki.

 

[Grinder]

While I agree with you that Koko may have also been a thief, I see no evidence that he was involved at the cottage. You can dismiss the burglary at Ms. Diaz because we have no confirmation outside of Nina. But in many years I have never seen her account disputed by anyone until you recently.

Tesla are you serious? Koko was at the cottage. He admits being there and IIRC his phone was pinged there. He wasn't necessarily a thief but he was later convicted of dealing coke and he was Albanian. The Albanians according to LMT (was that it RW) and other info are in control of drugs in that region.

There is no, none, nada, zilch confirming the True Crime Novel story. We don't know from another source that Diaz was burgled or that she even exists. Now it is proof of something because I'm the only one that questions it...wow. I was the only one that pointed out that Curatolo said the kids were there until nearly midnight and that was adjusted to 11:30 by Massei based on the disco bus schedules but alas they weren't running.

If you conclude that all of these stories are true, you have to seriously consider that Rudy was a ticking time bomb. The reason I say that is not because burglars escalate to murder. In fact most don't. But because certain kinds of burglars are known to escalate into violence. The FBI refers to them as "sexual burglars". These do it as much for the "thrill" as they do for the cash.

We have lift off.

Most burglars get in and out of their victims homes in under ten minutes. They usually head straight to the master bedroom going for jewelry and the expensive items. They avoid basements or anywhere they could get cornered. They prefer single story houses to second story homes because the master bedroom is more likely located on the second story. They usually burglarize in the daytime when it is less likely that someone is home.
They don't want to encounter the homeowner..ever.

How the terms second story man or cat burglar ever get traction? The nursery and lawyers' were over the weekend when businesses are closed.

The Diaz alleged event was during the day.

The CT event involved no cooking.

You see a pattern you want to see.