Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

I could swear I remember reading in this forum somewhere, and especially this thread (or maybe it was somewhere else), that the manufacturer's own literature doesn't recommend using the machine at the level Steffie said she used it at to get her readings. It increased the chances of a bad reading or that residual samples would contaminate the results or something like that.

I think it was that she cranked it up higher (or was that lower, but I'm almost sure it was higher) than the OEM's own literature recommended; but as always, I could be wrong here,

That is how I remember it as well but I leave this to the DNA experts. Maybe Chris or Dio will chime in.

 

[Grinder]

Acbytesla is religious. He leads the Seattle coven. We meet at the Boeing plant.

There is no Boeing plant in Seattle.

 

[JREF2010]

That is how I remember it as well but I leave this to the DNA experts. Maybe Chris or Dio will chime in.

Not only is the rfu below recommended levels, Stefoni didn't use the same procedure on all items, and she was not helpful to requests for transparency. A person could do a entire thread on Stephen vs c/v work.
Imo, they manipulated data to fool the jurors and judges.

 

[Grinder]

Since when has that stopped me? I'm on a mission to correct the internet, too!!

You should capitalize Internet.

 

[AmyStrange]

inconsistent consistencies are not always inconsistent

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Thanks for the concern. This may have put me in a mood -

You make me laugh Grinder. While I agree entirely that Rudy was NOT a drifter, the idea that Rudy was a fence is the dumbest idea you have had. Even dumber than Rudy dating Meredith. You hear he has a few computers in his apartment and you immediately jump to the conclusion that he is a fence? Fences are buying and selling things constantly. They REQUIRE that the person has money. Note that Rudy was pretty much broke when he was found on his last day in Milan​

And it not just the attacks it's the lack of consistency.

Tesla has Rudi stealin 2000 Euros a couple of weeks earlier but now he is broke.

He has him burglarizing but stealing worthless computers.

He says he couldn't be fencing in Milan because the train fare is too high but not too high to go their just for fun.

He acts like he has some knowledge of the underworld but it is obvious he just is making it up. No one said Rudi was some big time fence. All people fencing don't do it all the time and yes some work with fronted goods. But off course techie thinks Rudi stole 2000 Euro and seems not to understand that people make money fencing.

He believes CT but won't respond to the information that Rudi went to the club CT said he was bounced from on Halloween with the Spanish kids. It's like a spreadsheet has new numbers but no matter the total remains the same. CT didn't know that Rudi would be witnessed at Domus when he made the claim.

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Makes sense, but sometimes inconsistencies are just because someone is writing something down from a changing perspective, and to someone like you who tries hard to be consistently consistent, it doesn't look right and you are not afraid to challenge this, which is a good thing, at least in my opinion.

Like emotion, sometimes a precise perspective can be hard to nail down in a text message when you're using just words, and sometimes it's just a matter of semantics, which can be frustrating when text is all you got to work with.

Myself, I just feel bad when we jump on each other here (especially when most of us here generally agree on Raffaele and Amanda's probable innocence), but that's just me and in no way affects my general affection for all of you here, even the Gumpers,

d

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[Desert Fox]

Desert are you saying that Rudi was just stealing to collect computers? Laptops may or may not have been easy to sell in 2007 in Italy but they would equally hard to sell for others as for Rudi. Rudi had his Milan connections and knew how to travel for free and could have been a better fence than burglar. The point I've been making is that the evidence of Rudi being a burglar really isn't solid and RW's Spanish article stating he had a bunch of laptops caused a reevaluation for me. Is there an equivalent to Occam's that states once an opinion has been formed it remains correct no matter what knew evidence comes up.

Laptops in 2007 are still pretty large items weighing several kilograms each. Using my L attitude C600 / C640, I don't see how you could transport more than two or three without being a pretty suspiciously large package. I suspect that you are not going to get much more than 100 Euros each. Small stuff is going to be far more effective.

He may not have been a very smart thief as far as what he stole.

 

[Strozzi]

How do you think this would impact sales for the company? If the defense had called the company experts and subpoenaed them perhaps they could get them to testify to the machines works but I doubt they would comment on how the machine was used. They would have had better luck and still would by using a competitor's experts.

I suggest scientists from the DNA testing machine' manufacturer and their competitors be called. Certainly the manufacturer's scientists can be required to read and explain for the court the instructions they provide with the machine regarding not to use it for LCN DNA. They can also be required to explain what can go wrong if the instructions are violated. They can then be presented with the available machine data printouts and interrogated if the results show contamination.

If a manufacturer of a medical device knew that a physician was using it incorrectly and causing great harm, would the manufacturer be obligated to notify the physician to cease, perhaps cancel any use license that may exist, and notify others (hospital, patient, patient's physician (lawyer), the FDA, or physician licensing authority? Would damages be just if the manufacturer knew that the device was being used falsely and causing injury? Would this not apply to a DNA analyzer?

Winning a case can have many meanings; just filing it will produce intense media coverage and commentary in the US, Italy, and UK and focus attention on the machine printouts and the contamination. Extradition, anyone? Financial damages? Revocation of any license granted to the Italian police lab to use the machine?

"Mr. Kercher, it has been shown in a US court that the police lab made egregious errors in analyzing LCN DNA and that the machine results show contamination. Stefanoni lied about that to the Italian courts. Do you still believe the trial was just?"
Answer: "I have great faith in the Italian justice system. I will refer further questions to my fine Italian lawyer, Dr. Maresca.".

 

[Desert Fox]

Also, watch Bill Maher's Religilous.

He is not really much of a skeptic and I remember there are a lot of problems with that program.

 

[Poppy1016]

I suggest scientists from the DNA testing machine' manufacturer and their competitors be called. Certainly the manufacturer's scientists can be required to read and explain for the court the instructions they provide with the machine regarding not to use it for LCN DNA. They can also be required to explain what can go wrong if the instructions are violated. They can then be presented with the available machine data printouts and interrogated if the results show contamination.

If a manufacturer of a medical device knew that a physician was using it incorrectly and causing great harm, would the manufacturer be obligated to notify the physician to cease, perhaps cancel any use license that may exist, and notify others (hospital, patient, patient's physician (lawyer), the FDA, or physician licensing authority? Would damages be just if the manufacturer knew that the device was being used falsely and causing injury? Would this not apply to a DNA analyzer?

Winning a case can have many meanings; just filing it will produce intense media coverage and commentary in the US, Italy, and UK and focus attention on the machine printouts and the contamination. Extradition, anyone? Financial damages? Revocation of any license granted to the Italian police lab to use the machine?

"Mr. Kercher, it has been shown in a US court that the police lab made egregious errors in analyzing LCN DNA and that the machine results show contamination. Stefanoni lied about that to the Italian courts. Do you still believe the trial was just?"
Answer: "I have great faith in the Italian justice system. I will refer further questions to my fine Italian lawyer, Dr. Maresca.".

I think this is a tremendous idea,but why hasn't anyone thought of this or taken action on this ?

 

[acbytesla]

I believe Anglo provided a value for laptops back then when they were a little more expensive than now. So you theorize that he was just stealing computers to collect them?

You can't just set a value on a laptop Grinder. They vary from worthless to some real money. It all depends on the age, the brand, the processor, the RAM, the hard disk and the condition. I don't think Rudy was stealing laptops just to collect them. I don't even know if all those computers (not sure they were any or all of them were laptops besides the laptop from the law office) were stolen.

I'm sure that you can get a few Euros for a good laptop. But if you're a fence or an IT broker, you need to buy that laptop well below the current low wholesale value. You have just become a "stocking vendor". And since unlike jewelry, it is going to become less and less valuable for every day you own it.
So you HAVE to buy it cheap and move it quickly.

Let's say Grinder that you just stole a brand new top of the line laptop that sells for $1000 dollars. You can sell it to a fence who might give you $200 for it or hang on to it and try and get $500 for it yourself The broker or fence can't really buy it for more because tomorrow the manufacturer of that laptop might release a better laptop for $900 and then they are now selling your laptop new for $750 and the street value of that stolen laptop all of a sudden drops to $375. The thief taking a little longer to sell on his own still gets more money for it than if he had sold it to a fence.

I used to own a Jetta and had about 5 stereos stolen out of it, even removable and face plate models. How much do you think a pull out Pioneer would go for? At the time millions were being stolen a year yet I had never been offered one and no one I knew had been. The cops said something like they trade them for crack. I asked what the crack dealer did and met with deer headlight eyes.

I had 3 stereos stolen from my car once in the span of 6 months so I can relate. But guess what? I haven't had a car stereo stolen now in twenty years. They still get stolen Grinder but they are sold for almost nothing.

The only person that has ever mentioned a tower computer is you. No one said that a laptop would fetch a high price, never-the-less they are stolen even now. Smart phones are stolen all the time but used ones don't sell for that much and they can be traced.

Yes they can and they are getting harder and harder to sell for any money because of it. I have no doubt that thieves sell what they steal. The problem I have with the fence meme, is all we have is the Spanish girls story that he had a bunch of computers in his apartment..(I don't remember reading that they were laptops..but if they were, please point me to the story again). I see a fence like I see me as an IT broker. I have a limited amount of money to buy and sell with. I had both a financial cost of the money I used to buy and sell my equipment and an opportunity cost. The financial cost I figured about a point a month. For a million dollars that would be 10K a month. More importantly was the opportunity cost. I was limited to a million dollars that I could buy or not buy with. You always want to make sure you have liquidity so when you have an opportunity to buy something that can make you some real money, you have it and it's not tied up in some slow moving low margin crap. The fence is faced with the same problem. If he can buy a bunch of stolen laptops at a killer price, he is going to do it. But if the price isn't good. why take a chance of it falling in value the next month and your profit disappears?

Rudi had a phone that is also reported in the RW's Spanish story. IIRC Rudi made a statemnet to Mignini about using his SIM in different phones. Don't you remember a discussion here wondering about Rudi's phone history?

You're right, not that any of the phones or SIMs belonged to Rudy. This sounds like a guy who steals a phone any chance he can get. He'll use the phone and/or the SIM until the account on the SIM is closed and he is locked out and then he swaps for a new phone. But either it is VERY SIGNIFICANT that there isn't a single call that the police can trace between Rudy and Amanda/Raffaele because Rudy is not phone challenged or he doesn't have a phone.

Now what is valuable? Are you saying that Rudi would have to pay a disposal fee for the laptops? Why do you think he was out stealing worthless computers? Only Anglo has put a value on them that I know of and I trust his research.

No, if Rudy couldn't sell something he just dump it in the closest garbage can.

I trust Anglo too, but his estimate was just a ballpark, which is useless when the rubber meets the road. I use to track the price of IT equipment hourly Grinder and this I can tell you that there is NO WAY you can estimate the value of a laptop without knowing what it is. what CPU is in it, how much RAM, the size of the hard disk and the condition NO WAY. PERIOD.

Go check out POWERSOURCEONLINE.COM and Tradeloop You'll be able to look up equipment and resellers there but unless you're a reseller all you'll get is retail used prices. Which frankly means squat.

The real only way to set a value on a piece of IT equipment is to know the details and the time it is sold.

 

[acbytesla]

There is no Boeing plant in Seattle.

Technically this is true Grinder. But the Boeing facilities next to Boeing Field is a cut out island of non-Seattle inside Seattle.

 

[acbytesla]

The earth was created in six days if you understand the import of them seeing it that way. Science as we know it now was not even invented for another millennium and a half, so it seems a little unscientific to judge something on a standard which did not exist at the time.

Science and religion have overlaps, but conflating the two projects is the problem. It's why Creationism and Intelligent Design are complete bunk, but many of the so called criticisms of religion are too.

We are really off topic on this. I see a great value in religion Bill. There are a bunch of great life lessons, philosophy, community and faith. All of which I think is important. But religion like science is man's creation and there is bull in both. The difference is that we don't put religion to a test.

 

[Strozzi]

I think this is a tremendous idea,but why hasn't anyone thought of this or taken action on this ?

Amanda's and Raffaele's defense was handled in Italy by Italian lawyers. Her parents were there as much as possible, confused, without US lawyers deciding strategy, and trusting in the Italian lawyers. They may not have been so aware of the technical details in the LCN DNA data printouts, missing or buried in the Italian record

A US suit will probably succeed against the machine's manufacturer. Succeed in the sense that it will put the manufacturer on the stand and compel them to repudiate the improper use of their machine by the police lab and Steranini. There may be a financial settlement.

Mignini, et al, are suing both defendants and their families in Italian court. This is turn-around. Sue the police lab, Stefanoni, and the machine manufacturer in a US court.

The machine's manufacturer (hopefully a US company or foreign company with a presence (nexus) in the US) sold the test instrument to an Italian police lab and it was misused (LCN) by the Italian police and Amanda and Raffaele were harmed. The manufacturer knew (forseeable) the machine could be misused, specified how it was to be used and specified/required that it was not to be used for LCN analysis. This case was in the news and the machine manufacturer's scientists and executives certainly knew their instrument was improperly used to develop (false) results on LCN DNA. Manufacturer deliberately or negligently failed to warn the lab, Stefanoni, the court, prosecution, or defendants of its misuse, unreliable (false) results, and harm. Defendants suffered great harm as a result. I see it as a product liability issue by the manufacturer of the DNA test instrument who also developed/specified and licensed testing procedures and parameters. Sue them for an enormous sum!

Filing a suit in US court might invigorate Amanda and Raffaele, even if he does not participate. Amanda certainly has standing to initiate such a suit in a US court. Maybe even one in Seattle.

I would think a product liability attorney would take this case for the publicity - to appear on and discuss the case on national news where he will be viewed as an aggressive product liability attorney seeking just damages for the injured parties.

 

[acbytesla]

Would that mean one month after being banned he was back at Domus? If we go with CT, he spotted a guy that just been in his flat stealing and threatening him with a knife and had him banned from a club that he was at one month later. Sorry but CT is slipping in cred.

I disagree. People get thrown out of clubs and the next week they are back in the same clubs they were thrown out of.

 

[Grinder]

Tesla you sputter about RAM and processors etc. but the bottom line is that laptops do have value and they are stolen often. Everyone knows that the value depends on what they are. Apple computers go for a lot more than a ASUS entry level.

I've produced several sources saying there was no evidence of a break-in. Prato mentions no such thing. He wasn't convicted of breaking-in AFAIK. It is clear that someone had had access and that Prato was changing the lock in some way to make it secure. There is nothing that would lead one to think Rudi was the possessor of the skill or key to enter the nursery. There were no stories of Rudi spending wildly, you say he was broke and his rent was due.

I have shown you that CT claimed he recognized Rudi and threw him out of a club or two and one was Domus. He went to Domus on Halloween night. CT's story doesn't hold up and isn't any more credible than Nara or Quintavalle. It makes no sense that he didn't inform the police about Rudi. Now if you could produce the other bouncer but alas he has not been public.

Thieves like to get rid of stuff fast because they don't want to get caught. They get to people that will sell it. They may trade it for drugs, guns or other things. I figured out he was a fence from RW's article which made other things make more sense. The visit to the lawyers' office. His being in Milan with the stuff. (You never explained how it makes more sense that he would buy a ticket to Milan if he wasn't fencing then if he was. To put it another way: How did he afford the train just for a visit?) The fact that he didn't seem to be stealing anything from the nursery.

 

[Strozzi]

There is no Boeing plant in Seattle.

A small detail, Grinder. You underestimate the power the Boeing coven can marshall when we need to. We know people in the Masons.

 

[Bill Williams]

We are really off topic on this. I see a great value in religion Bill. There are a bunch of great life lessons, philosophy, community and faith. All of which I think is important. But religion like science is man's creation and there is bull in both.

Agreed

The difference is that we don't put religion to a test.

Some of us do....

Bringing this back to topic, it is plain that the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito was initially heavy with theological overtones, theology taken straight from the middle ages. For Mignini, it was the same sort of issue as the Narducci prosecution, where he was doing battle with Masonic elements to preserve conservative Catholicism from ..... what?

Any sane legal system would look at that and dismiss this case. What has happened is that they've morphed it... the last nod to "religion" was Massei saying that the motivation (not a motive, but a brief lapse of morality) for the two was a "choice for evil".

Since Massei EVERYONE has given up on theology - for which I say, praise Jesus!

Hellmann said there was no crime committed by K and S, the ISC said it should have been seen as a sex game, Crini said it was a household cleanliness issue escalating, and Nencini (out of the blue!) said it was a dispute over rent money which escalated (for which Rudy Guede had no involvement... other than to leave his DNA inside the victim!!!)

But first and foremost this was a theological crime as Mignini saw it, part of a large war between good and evil. It's why Mignini is asked to speak at "Satanism and the Law" conferences.


[url=http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=28928]

 

[Grinder]

I disagree. People get thrown out of clubs and the next week they are back in the same clubs they were thrown out of.

Tesla you are down to DC. He wasn't thrown out for being drunk or spilling a drink, he was thrown out for breaking in to the guy's house and threatening him with a knife.

CT wasn't credible then and he's not credible now.

Have you forgotten that CT's thief stole credit cards?

Massei:

Witness Maria Antonietta Salvadori Del Prato Titone, at the hearing of 6-27-2009, reported that on the morning of Saturday, October 27, 2007, as she entered the nursery [asilo] located on Via Plinio 16 in Milan, of which she was the director, she noticed that a person she did not know — subsequently identified as Rudy Guede — was leaving from her own office. There were no signs of forced entry.
​

From this site

Case summary

In November 2007, Amanda and Raffaele, after extensive questioning over a number of days without legal representation, were charged with murdering Amanda's roommate Meredith Kercher...

[Nursery school owner Maria Del Prato] entered the nursery school at via Plinio 16, Milan, of which she was the principal, she noticed coming out of her office a person whom she didn'ʹt know, later identified as Rudy Guede. There were no signs of a break‑in. There was some money missing from the money box, but just small change. Rudy Guede had a backpack inside which was a computer.​

Two weeks later, the computer was in his possession when he was found in a nursery school in Milan. There, Maria Antonietta Salvadori del Prado, the school administrator, discovered him asleep in her office. "He was very serene and explained that he had been told that for €50 he could sleep here for the night," she told the court. She also testified that along with the computer, he had a kitchen knife, a woman’s watch, and a small hammer in his backpack. "I was shocked to find him there. I was more shocked when I discovered he was wanted for Meredith Kercher's murder."​

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla you sputter about RAM and processors etc. but the bottom line is that laptops do have value and they are stolen often. Everyone knows that the value depends on what they are. Apple computers go for a lot more than a ASUS entry level.

Not every laptop has value Grinder. That simply is not true. Eventually they all become dinosaurs and are essentially obsolete. I have at least 3 in my closet that are worthless. You can not tell the value of a laptop by just casually glancing at it. You couldn't get squat for an original mac or many other generations of apple computers.

I've produced several sources saying there was no evidence of a break-in.

Prato mentions no such thing. He wasn't convicted of breaking-in AFAIK. It is clear that someone had had access and that Prato was changing the lock in some way to make it secure. There is nothing that would lead one to think Rudi was the possessor of the skill or key to enter the nursery. There were no stories of Rudi spending wildly, you say he was broke and his rent was due.

Again, this means nothing. All it takes is a window not fully closed or locked Now maybe Rudy had cash at his apartment. But Rudy had nothing but change on him when he was caught at the nursery. We can assume that Rudy's rent was due as it was the beginning/end of the month.

Thieves like to get rid of stuff fast because they don't want to get caught. They get to people that will sell it. They may trade it for drugs, guns or other things. I figured out he was a fence from RW's article which made other things make more sense. The visit to the lawyers' office. His being in Milan with the stuff. (You never explained how it makes more sense that he would buy a ticket to Milan if he wasn't fencing then if he was. To put it another way: How did he afford the train just for a visit?) The fact that he didn't seem to be stealing anything from the nursery.

We can argue this over and over and over again and still get nowhere. You can say it makes more sense all you like, but that doesn't make it so. My opinion is that your hypothesis has NOTHING really to base it on. You are jumping to a conclusion based on mildly anecdotal information. I agree that Most thieves would like to sell their wares quickly because of the very reasons you mention. But we also have no idea if Rudy isn't turning most of his inventory either. Most thieves also don't hang out in their victims places either. But there are burglars that do. These are the burglars that often assault the homeowners. They feel invincible. This is Rudy.

 

[acbytesla]

Here is the problem I have Grinder. There is nothing that says the Rudy broke into the nursery. This is true. But there is also NOTHING but Rudy's story that he paid some stranger to let him in but Rudy's word. There is also nothing but Rudy's word that he had a date with Meredith. You can say that CT is not credible, still Rudy is caught inside the nursery and he has stolen goods on him from a burglary in Perugia near his home. But instead of saying that he bought the laptop in Perugia, he says he bought it in Milan. Rudy's a liar obviously. Yet you want to believe him? I think it is far more likely that Rudy was able to open a window than some stranger letting him in for 50 Euros.