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Enough to make one support the death penalty...

Mike! said:
No, that's not an 'eye for an eye' solution, because it inflicts punishment another set of innocents. It's the perpetrators who should be raped and hung. Of course, this presents a new problem, who does the raping? Since we all agree, rape is wrong, no one should have to rape another person, even if it is their job. So, what we need is a new punishment device. Some sort of automated raping machine, a "Rape-O-Matic", if you will. That way, no individual is burdened with the task, beyond strapping the guilty in and switching it on. With that, when sentencing comes down, the judge (or jury) , if they so decide, can dictate the number of hours in the "Rape-O-Matic", and further punishment, if necessary, including being hung.
Surely there's something to be learned from the Inquisitions.
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Is there someone in this thread who's advocated an eye for an eye?
 
trustbutverify said:
If you had to pick one factor most responsible for the rash of these particularly monstrous crimes, what would it be?
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The desire to make everyone think and behave consistently according to one set of precise rules, when everyone lives in a world where each person has an independent set of thinking and behavior rules.
 
Trakar said:
The desire to make everyone think and behave consistently according to one set of precise rules, when everyone lives in a world where each person has an independent set of thinking and behavior rules.
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In that case, shouldn't North Korea have the highest violent crime rate in the world? Followed closely by Cuba?
 
trustbutverify said:
In that case, shouldn't North Korea have the highest violent crime rate in the world? Followed closely by Cuba?
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I don't think that Cuba is anything like you apparently believe it to be, regardless, you don't consider the way the N. Korean government treats its citizenry to be violent and criminal?
 
Trakar said:
I don't think that Cuba is anything like you apparently believe it to be, regardless, you don't consider the way the N. Korean government treats its citizenry to be violent and criminal?
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I think Cuba is very much like I apparently believe it to be, although things are beginning to change somewhat now, and it will be interesting to see if the violent crime rate increases as a result of a those changes, which would further contradict your hypothesis.

Although accurate numbers are, obviously, not available for NK, I suspect the murder and gang rape rates, even including government killings and gang rapes, is extraordinarily low.
 
NWO Sentryman said:
"Not learned to be law abiding" Seriously, criminals in most cases know outright that they are breaking the law (unless they are not guilty by reason of insanity or some other extenuating circumstance).
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Knowing that a law exists is not the same as being able to follow it. How many people in the US are committing crimes every day because they don't have the willpower to overcome destructive patterns of behavior? Anybody who smokes pot, drives over the speed limit or doesn't declare cash income is committing a crime. They tell themselves that the law is stupid, or what's the harm, or that they are entitled to it. But still they are breaking the law, and have the same mindset as rapists and murderers.

And how the hell does executing the most heinous criminals "perpetuate the cycle of violence".
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Apart from the obvious fact that someone who is already facing the Death Penalty has more incentive to kill witnesses and go on a crime spree, it teaches people that the answer to their problems is violence. Certainly we need to catch criminals and stop them from committing more crimes, and that often requires force - but it doesn't mean we have to add more violence to the equation.

'Fighting Fire with Fire' may work in desperate situations, but most of the time it just causes even more destruction. The Death Penalty is the State's message to us they have a monopoly on carefully planned and executed cold blooded murder. We should consider any execution to be the ultimate failure of society's efforts to teach people not to hurt others (and themselves), but the DP is teaching us that killing is the solution. Criminals read that message to mean that they too are justified in using violence to solve their problems. If you believe that violence is the answer then you are part of the problem, not the solution.

As for your NSA point, would you like the government creating a panopticon state which monitored confidential calls (say you are going through something like a nervous breakdown or a divorce, your situation would be made even worse if you thought the government was monitoring your every move).
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Yes, I would be happy with the government constantly monitoring people and intervening when they are about to go off the rails, provided that it is done to help them (and not for corrupt purposes such as filling up for-profit private prisons).

That's a big ask because it requires us to set aside our fear of 'big brother' and emotional responses to crime, but until we stop thinking of criminal activity as a character flaw and treat it like any other mental health issue we will never get ahead. What many people don't realize is that criminals do suffer from mental health issues, and this is the root cause of their mental state. Unfortunately by the time we discover this (if ever) it's usually too late. Monitoring people for signs of mental instability allows us to catch and treat their illness before it passes the point of no return where heinous crimes are committed. Any right-minded person would welcome that help.

By that standard, do you advocate waterboarding people and the use of polygraphs (after all, nothing to hide, nothing to fear)
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No, of course not. There is a world of difference between surveillance and torture, and the polygraph is just a prop that interrogators use to fool subjects into thinking they can't get away with lying.

Lastly, humans are emotional beings, and if a friend or relative was beaten to a pulp and/or shot, you would be calling for the killers to get the noose just like anyone else.
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Actually no, I wouldn't. I have come to realize that anger is not a useful emotion, so I would only feel sad for the loss. I would also feel sorry for the killer, for being so sick and beyond help. It would be a tragedy all round.

Anyway, you put far too much faith in SCIENCE! to solve societal problems
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If not science then what else? We cannot trust our emotions, religion is a crock and traditional methods are not working any better than they did a thousand years ago. Applying science is the only way to move forward.

remember there were scientific journals in the 1920s arguing that black people were inherently dumber than white people
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Some still do, but the rest aren't buying it. Why not? Because science has to conform to reality, not preconceived notions and folklore. Ask any scientist studying human cognition or social behavior, and they will tell you that the idea of criminals being 'evil' is outmoded and unproductive, just like traditional concepts of 'race'.

The more we use science to learn about the human brain and why we behave as we do, the better we will be able to deal with the mental issues that cause crime. And science also gives us the technology to detect crime, identify those who are at risk, and produce the medicines that will treat it. The only alternatives are ignorance and superstition.
 
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trustbutverify said:
I think Cuba is very much like I apparently believe it to be, although things are beginning to change somewhat now, and it will be interesting to see if the violent crime rate increases as a result of a those changes, which would further contradict your hypothesis.

Although accurate numbers are, obviously, not available for NK, I suspect the murder and gang rape rates, even including government killings and gang rapes, is extraordinarily low.
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Your suspicions and beliefs do not seem to be compellingly supported by presented evidences.
 
Trakar said:
Killing other human beings is something that "punishment" cannot address. If your goal is to remove the possibility of them repeating these actions then they must be separated from the society to be protected. The most obvious choices for the primary perpetrators are confinement, banishment, or death.
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What have these men done that makes them deserve to be feed and sheltered with the money of others?

Certain actions make folks unworthy of mercy, plain and simple. Or in other words **** these guys they knew what they were doing and did it anyway, no one made them, their guilt is certain, anything bad that happens to them is their own fault.
 
sadhatter said:
What have these men done that makes them deserve to be feed and sheltered with the money of others?

Certain actions make folks unworthy of mercy, plain and simple. Or in other words **** these guys they knew what they were doing and did it anyway, no one made them, their guilt is certain, anything bad that happens to them is their own fault.
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Death is a mercy.

Living with guilt is a torture.
 
ehcks said:
Death is a mercy.

Living with guilt is a torture.
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You have it severely backwards.

Getting gang raped and hung is a torture. Getting to live a long life on other people's dimes after gang raping and hanging someone else is a mercy.

And what in the world makes you think that the kind of sociopaths who would do such a thing have any capacity for feeling guilt? You seem to have a misguided notion.

Anyways, if you think death is such a mercy, than why shouldn't we shower these criminals with mercy?
 
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MontagK505 said:
That's only if you regard their daughters as property to destroy as restitution. The families of the victims may in fact regard their own daughters as property.
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That's always a problem with eye-for-an-eye. Your subject might not have any eyes.
 
ehcks said:
Death is a mercy.

Living with guilt is a torture.
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That only works, if you do in fact, feel guilt. This seems unlikely when you take part in a gang rape. Being "one of the boys" can rationalize a lot of evil.
 
MontagK505 said:
While I have some reservations about the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent, it might be irrelevant in this case, because apparently these people didn't expect to be caught.
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Even more problematic, neither these people, nor apparently, the local police, really think that these people committed a serious crime.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but is there genuinely a culture in India that considers it "no big deal" to rape and then murder teenage girls? If so, that's absolutely horrifying. Why did these men do this to these girls? Just randomly decided to, or what? Why didn't they do it last week, or last year? Or do they do this on a regular basis in India?

I mean, geez, as horrible as the lynching of people was in the American South, at least it tended to be under the pretense of seeking justice for some crime. This just sounds like murder for murder's sake (not saying that lynchings weren't, too, and obviously any pretense certainly didn't help the victims, but I don't even see a pretense in this case in India, and it's disturbing that one wasn't even apparently necessary or remotely thought to be important...it was just, "let's have some fun and rape and murder some girls...")

Usually I thought these types of crimes were committed by deranged psychopaths, not apparently normal members of society working together as a group.
 
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MontagK505 said:
While I have some reservations about the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent, it might be irrelevant in this case, because apparently these people didn't expect to be caught.
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No, it is very relevant. For any penalty to be an effective deterrent, it must be applied rigorously. As deterrence is one of the main advantages touted by supporters of the DP, how effective it is in practice is crucial.

Unfortunately, many of the same people who think the DP is a good idea also think that effective law enforcement isn't, because they are too afraid of 'big brother'. The sad thing is that if we had a way of detecting potential rapists and murders and could prevent them from committing these heinous crimes, then the DP would be redundant.

MontagK505 said:
That only works, if you do in fact, feel guilt. This seems unlikely when you take part in a gang rape. Being "one of the boys" can rationalize a lot of evil.
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Unless the perpetrators are total sociopaths, I bet they do feel at least some guilt. But it is too late for them now, and the idea of their guilt feelings being a 'punishment' is irrelevant (unless you get off on the idea).

What is needed is to give them a fair trial, convict them and send them to prison. Then we can redirect our outrage towards preventing others from committing similar crimes. As you know, part of the problem is attitudes towards rape and women in India. This can be solved by better education and reducing poverty. The next problem is how to detect and treat people who have antisocial tendencies, which can be done by improving mental health and social services. Finally, we need law enforcement to put more emphasis on crime prevention rather than just reacting to it.

It is interesting to note that violent crime rates are going down in western countries, even though most of them have outlawed the DP. I believe this is due to our applying all of the solutions above. When people are educated, well off, healthy and secure, they are less likely to commit violent crimes.

Doghouse Reilly said:
Forgive my ignorance, but is there genuinely a culture in India that considers it "no big deal" to rape and then murder teenage girls?
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Of course not. That is just a meme being propagated by bigots who are trying to feed your outrage. The vast majority of Indians were horrified by this incident, just like you.
 
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