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Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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The page at the link above is so totally Knoxian it's hilarious.

The utter pretentiousness of it:

"Lorenzo Rinaldi is the director of the print identity department of the Italian Police The myth about the size of Rudy's foot is largely the result of the report that Lorenzo Rinaldi presented in court. Proper inspection of the bathmat clearly shows..."

Uh...proper inspection according to whom? A few internet posters with no training in the subject looking over internet photographs?

The defense was clobbered on this subject by two experts in their field: Rinaldi and Pietro Boemia. And the judge and jury came to their conclusions.

A more complete picture of the testimony:

About Boemia: "Dactyloscopist with 30 years' experience. Has identified between 5,000 and 10,000 individuals using footprints."

But we're supposed to put our faith in anonymous internet posters who don't know their footprint from Shinola.

"Boemia also identified the bathmat print as belonging to Raffaele Sollecito. Bongiorno asked about the missing heel, and Boemia explained that you could use other characteristics." (explained in a chart presentation)

"At one point while being cross-examined by Bongiorno, Boemia responded with the comment that metatarsal profile was a perfect match to Sollecito."

"Bongiorno asked about the distortion from the footprint being made by depositing a substance on a soft surface. Boemia explained that because the quantity of blood was small that was not an issue. Bongiorno also asked about possible distortion standing on one foot would cause. Boemia explained that again, because of the quantity of blood, it would have no impact."

"Asked by Judge Massei how many people were present Boemia said that there were definitely three sets of different feet so there were at least three people in the cottage when the murder happened".

And that's just for starters. Then there's Rinaldi's testimony. I don't believe it is available in English.... I've read it in Italian. Of course none of you have. These men of course examined the actual mat and it should also be noted that their technical report features 56 photographs. Let me repeat that: 56.

Why does the link that "DesertFox" posted make no reference to any of this?


This is very good work, Vibio. Personally, I never paid much attention to the footprint because it seemed so obvious that a deformed print on a fuzzy mat was worthless. But just this morning, after I got out of the shower, I spotted such a print on my own bathmat, and I was able to tell that it was from Raffaele Sollecito. So obviously, these Italian bathmat footprint experts know a thing or two. I'll bet they might even have examined one or two other bathmat footprints in their distinguished careers in which they have been paid by the state to testify against defendants.
 
Remember that two courts came to the same conclusion. You can also read Hellman to see how he basically waves all of this away and you can also read why his court on this and other subjects was called into question and thrown out.

Why yes, we can read that. Hellman was called into question and thrown out because Cassation disagreed with his interpretation of the facts. Which is illegal.
 
Remember that two courts came to the same conclusion. You can also read Hellman to see how he basically waves all of this away and you can also read why his court on this and other subjects was called into question and thrown out.
Three courts ruled in a five match series, and you claim victory at 2 1

Joking aside Vibio, there is a suggestion that all pre 12 pm nov 2 prints are one deal, and post that moment they are characterised differently, but how do you time stamp them? The cottage became like a tourist attraction

Then the isolation and dichotomy was defined by your experts.

It is clearly a nonsense, but please tell me I am misguided.
 
Popper just posted this

DNA that was never contested by anybody like the big patch of blood of AK on the tap

It seems certain that this is the same idea I had.

I see no point in pretending the other sites are irrelevant. It is an inescapable truth that they describe what the prosecutorial Kercher family believe, and they will continue to drive the incarceration of Raffaele and so on.

I wish it was a logical path, but everyone now knows that there is fundamentalism to combat.

I love Popper sightings. A blinkered curmudgeon deprived of all critical thinking skills. I always envision a cranky old man in a 1978 Fiat programming his GPS to take him to Rome, following it right into a lake, and then insisting from the bottom of the lake that he is in Rome.
 
I love Popper sightings. A blinkered curmudgeon deprived of all critical thinking skills. I always envision a cranky old man in a 1978 Fiat programming his GPS to take him to Rome, following it right into a lake, and then insisting from the bottom of the lake that he is in Rome.

heh Grinder singled him among a few as intelligent This temptation to credit the grandfathers (poppas) of the mirror alternates with credibility... I am tiring gonna lay down now.
 
About Boemia: "Dactyloscopist with 30 years' experience. Has identified between 5,000 and 10,000 individuals using footprints."

But we're supposed to put our faith in anonymous internet posters who don't know their footprint from Shinola.

Yo be honest, none of this is that hard to understand.
The way it was presented, it makes things accessible.
In any scientific field, when a scientist tells me in effect "you just cannot understand", my bravo sierra detector activates.

Why does the link that "DesertFox" posted make no reference to any of this?

To be blunt, because it probably just doesn't exist. When somebody creates a new piece of evidence out of whole cloth, it is hard to argue over it.
 
The page at the link above is so totally Knoxian it's hilarious.

The utter pretentiousness of it:

"Lorenzo Rinaldi is the director of the print identity department of the Italian Police The myth about the size of Rudy's foot is largely the result of the report that Lorenzo Rinaldi presented in court. Proper inspection of the bathmat clearly shows..."

Uh...proper inspection according to whom? A few internet posters with no training in the subject looking over internet photographs?

The defense was clobbered on this subject by two experts in their field: Rinaldi and Pietro Boemia. And the judge and jury came to their conclusions.

A more complete picture of the testimony:

About Boemia: "Dactyloscopist with 30 years' experience. Has identified between 5,000 and 10,000 individuals using footprints."

But we're supposed to put our faith in anonymous internet posters who don't know their footprint from Shinola.

"Boemia also identified the bathmat print as belonging to Raffaele Sollecito. Bongiorno asked about the missing heel, and Boemia explained that you could use other characteristics." (explained in a chart presentation)

"At one point while being cross-examined by Bongiorno, Boemia responded with the comment that metatarsal profile was a perfect match to Sollecito."

"Bongiorno asked about the distortion from the footprint being made by depositing a substance on a soft surface. Boemia explained that because the quantity of blood was small that was not an issue. Bongiorno also asked about possible distortion standing on one foot would cause. Boemia explained that again, because of the quantity of blood, it would have no impact."

"Asked by Judge Massei how many people were present Boemia said that there were definitely three sets of different feet so there were at least three people in the cottage when the murder happened".

And that's just for starters. Then there's Rinaldi's testimony. I don't believe it is available in English.... I've read it in Italian. Of course none of you have. These men of course examined the actual mat and it should also be noted that their technical report features 56 photographs. Let me repeat that: 56.

Why does the link that "DesertFox" posted make no reference to any of this?

Can you show or list some of the 5000-10000 cases this stooge has worked on? Why is the range between 5000 and 10 000? Isn't the rather large?
 
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It's not a footprint, it's a track!

This is Judge Massei's 2010 discussion on the bathmat footprint. So far, Nencini's reasonings about it don't seem to add anything, and his whole report is truly bizarre anyway.

Judge Massei assumes that whoever it was who left a bare footprint on the mat (in Meredith blood) must have picked it up by being barefoot in the murder room. However, there is no indication at all in the murder room that anyone was barefoot.

Massei p 300 said:
Furthermore, the sky-blue bathmat with the print of a bare foot in blood, blood which also was shown to be from the victim, indicates that whoever went into this bathroom was barefoot, and must therefore also have been barefoot in Meredith’s room where she had been repeatedly struck, a room which had great blotches of blood, and in one of these whoever transferred the blood to the bathroom and the sky-blue bathmat must have placed his or her foot, and thus must have been moving about that room with bare feet. The above observation leads to the deduction that whoever went into the bathroom at that point (after the stabbing of Meredith) must have had to do so to clean him/herself of Meredith’s blood with which he/she was staining the various things he/she touched or leaned against: the door, the light switch, the mat.​

(The following is where Massei is infinitely superior to Nencini, because Massei at least discusses the issues, even if in the end he gets most things wrong!)

Massei summarizes Professor Vinci's conclusions which "openly contradict" what Mignini's consultants said they found in 2008.

First of all, acc. to Vinci, what's on the bathmat is not a print, it is a track. The difference is important and overlooking this leads investigators (and internet posters) astray.

Massei p 376 said:
Vinci dissents from the methods used by the technical operators of the ERT, and also from the R.I.S. of the Carabinieri, of placing the foot on an inkpad and then on sheets of paper (a method suitable for studying fingerprints). He recommends a more modern method, approved by the scientific community, which would have those submitting to the procedure of footprint acquisition walk for a length of at least six metres along a paper-covered gangway.​

Vinci also said that the wrong set of experts was obtained by Mignini - Mignini should have used experts in forensic medicine, as they require mandatory orthopaedic and anatomical knowledge.

And Vinci, acc. to Massei, is also clear that it is the bathmat itself which needs to be examined, not photographs of it. Presumably this is because of the "receiving medium", ie. the mat itself. It's not as if this is a print, like fingerprints received on special paper, ready to receive inked fingertips, the bathmat is a varying medium, with a lot of vertical play and absorbency to it.

Looking at a photo only does not show the investigator anything firm really, and this is how Mignini's experts examined the mat - meaning they did not examine the mat, they examined photos of it.

One really should read Massei on these pages because when someone like Vinci actually does the proper forensic analysis, not based on photographs and with the real morphology of the accused's feet known, this is what Vinci, acc. to Massei, concluded:

Given these two features which make Sollecito's foot morphologically distinctive, Professor Vinci's study basically arrives at the assertion that, while the second toe of Raffaele Sollecito's right foot is entirely absent from the footprints known to be made by him, on the contrary the footprint on the bathmat does contain the imprint of the second toe.​

However, by the time page 381 rolls around, Massei is debunking Vinci on what can only be regarded as arbitrary criteria. It is basically that "the Court cannot share the conclusion that the print revealed by Luminol was made by a foot much smaller than Raffaele Sollecito's."

Be that as it may, Judge Massei has all the reasons to doubt that the bathmat footprint belongs to Raffaele, and has someone in front of him who approaches the analysis in the proper forensic way - by actually examining the mat, rather than photos of it.
And then Massei simply chooses to believe it is a print of Raffaele's right foot.
 
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Beg pardon? Has that comparison not been made? My enquiry is genuine.


I have not seen the same side by side comparison between Rudy's reference and the bathmat print. The images are all available so anyone with minimal competency should be able to do it for themselves. If I get a chance I might do it later.
 
I have not seen the same side by side comparison between Rudy's reference and the bathmat print. The images are all available so anyone with minimal competency should be able to do it for themselves. If I get a chance I might do it later.

The argument has been brought forth that unless you are an expert in the field that one cannot examine the information and must defer completely to prosecution experts.
 
Translation please

Vibio, you have noted on two occasions here that you speak Italian. Please help in understanding what Judge Nencini is saying here on page 84 of his report.

 
Also Vibio, please help in understanding page 243.... translation please.... of particular interest is the use of the feminine "amica"......
 
The argument has been brought forth that unless you are an expert in the field that one cannot examine the information and must defer completely to prosecution experts.

Certainly. Only experienced footologists (incidentally on Meisterburger Mignini's payroll) need apply.
 
The page at the link above is so totally Knoxian it's hilarious.

The utter pretentiousness of it:

"Lorenzo Rinaldi is the director of the print identity department of the Italian Police The myth about the size of Rudy's foot is largely the result of the report that Lorenzo Rinaldi presented in court. Proper inspection of the bathmat clearly shows..."

Uh...proper inspection according to whom? A few internet posters with no training in the subject looking over internet photographs?

Excuse me Vibio? Are you saying that it requires a degree to look at photographs? That peope can't see with their own eyes?
The defense was clobbered on this subject by two experts in their field: Rinaldi and Pietro Boemia. And the judge and jury came to their conclusions.
A more complete picture of the testimony:

About Boemia: "Dactyloscopist with 30 years' experience. Has identified between 5,000 and 10,000 individuals using footprints.

Where did that number come from Vibio? Out of someone's backside? A range of 5,000 to 10,000 is so wide a range that it is the only place such a figure originated. And like anything pulled out of one's backside it is covered with, well you know.

But we're supposed to put our faith in anonymous internet posters who don't know their footprint from Shinola.

I actually don't believe anybody on the bathmat footprints Vibio. I trust my own eyes. I don't need a so called expert to tell me what is visible right in front of me. It is a fuzzy bathmat and the image is very poor and I can't eliminate either Rudy or Raffaele with that print and frankly with all respect to others, I don't see how anyone can.
 
I actually don't believe anybody on the bathmat footprints Vibio. I trust my own eyes. I don't need a so called expert to tell me what is visible right in front of me. It is a fuzzy bathmat and the image is very poor and I can't eliminate either Rudy or Raffaele with that print and frankly with all respect to others, I don't see how anyone can.

While I believe it seems closer to Rudy, I am perfectly willing to call it a "wash"
 
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