Did Putin orchestrate the Odessa "Massacre"?

[Caustic Logic]

I just read about this conspiracy theory and it struck me it would easily get some takers among the "skeptics" here.

* Robert Zubrin, National Review, May 13: Did Putin Plan the Odessa Massacre? He has certainly exploited it

Re: the May 2 incident leading to a fire and dozens of deaths at the Trade Unions Hall in Odessa, Ukraine, May 2, 2014.

Summary: an article-length, restatement of that idea, with disputable historuical precedents and no apparent knowledge of the incident details (a trait he rightly presumes his readers will share).

Essence quote:

in eliminating dissent and unifying Putin’s subjects into a mad herd behind his plans for war and fascism, the massacre could hardly have better served his aims and objectives if the former spymaster had planned it himself.

So the question is, did he?

... there is no question that Putin had the motive, capability, and character to arrange for the Odessa massacre. Furthermore, he is the only one of the potential suspects to have, in addition to those characteristics, a history of prior comparable acts.

The devil will be in the details, huh?

What do we know about this incident from mainstream news report? I know a bit from other sources, but from CNN et al. it seems rather vague to me - there was a clash, separatists apparently started it, they occupied some Trade Unions building that wound up catching fire, some 40 or so people died, apparently all on the bad guy side, and it was likely their own fault.

What has the forum at large heard about this? What do you think/believe about it? Have you checked how the reports line up with the visual evidence, for example? I've looked a bit, but would rather hear what people already think.

ETA: I should just paste this here, a note and a starter point on one of the details:

For good form, if Putin's not being blamed, we don't call it a massacre: Most people call it nothing, but Wikipedia has a page for May, 2014 Odessa Clashes. It just went badly for one side, who started it, by the way.

Masked militants with red armbands are blamed for firing the first provocative shots (see here for example). Here's a supposed photo of them, organized and attentive as some uniformed officer tells them what to do, apparently before provoking a mob and then disappearing behind police protection, to leave the mob ready to go witness an accidental fire that killed a diifferent group of bad guys.

So the CT would say these clearly pro-Russian militants were sent by Putin to trick the mob into getting around that building when it started burning - to frame them. Or maybe not. But who's this officer? What kind of uniform is that? He's one of the former spymaster's agents. right? The source I found it at (Globalresearch, citing Oriental Review) says it's “Odessa Interior ministry branch Colonel Dmitry Fucheji.” But that's a source that won't fly with many, and that doesn't fit the CT.

Any other thoughts on who that is setting up the provocation Putin has so massively exploited?

 

[carlitos]

40 people died and you put "massacre" in scare quotes and said that most people call that "nothing." Stay classy.

 

[timhau]

Does "looking at the visual evidence" mean what I think it means?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Does "looking at the visual evidence" mean what I think it means?

Well, what do you think it means?

I meant looking at videos and photos. If that's what you thought, right on. But then you wouldn't ask, because that's a pretty obvious meaning. So I'm curious what less obvious, maybe nefarious meaning you think I might have had there.

In the actual sentence context, I asked "Have you checked how the reports line up with the visual evidence, for example?" Have you?

 

[Caustic Logic]

40 people died and you put "massacre" in scare quotes and said that most people call that "nothing." Stay classy.

How have other people put the word? They don't at all, usually. In the Western mainstream news, so far, I've seen "clashes," "incident," "accident," "a fire," etc. No mass-murderous intent is suggested. From Russian and alternative sources, you'll often hear "massacre," blaming the Right Sector types around (and inside!) the building. And when Putin's blamed, I see "massacre" in the Western media.

So to clarify, I consider it probably a deliberate massacre, almost surely by the people who on video stormed the building, lit it from the inside and out, kept fire trucks away, beat down and shot people who climbed out windows, etc.

But the quotes are a nod to the fact that most people don't seem to think so. And I contend it's a bit lame for this guy to just toss the word in because he's got a Putin-blaming CT to make it okay.

So...
Anyone else want to call this a likely massacre? Whose then, and on what evidence?

Anyone buy the Putin-blaming CT? Supporting evidence? Visuals preferred by far over words from Human mouths.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Google news search: Odessa Ukraine Massacre

Mostly RT, GlobalResearch, Pravda, the one blaming Putin I mentioned, and on page one main entries, only the Telegraph appears. Titled with "death by fire" and highlighting the mystery of it, and the tragedy, and some peripheral details (but few core ones of the kind that matter most). Still, A useful report, worth considering. It says:
"The Odessa Massacre, as some are already calling it, was the greatest single loss of life in Ukraine's unrest since the revolution in February"

Some of the reports on the other side talk of whole batches of unreported victims, in the basement especially, making the death toll actually higher than 30-40, and higher even than the hundred in February.

But on the core stuff, the Telegraph says:

Witnesses sympathetic to the pro-Maidan movement point out that video footage appears to show the fire beginning on the third floor, behind an intact window - and out of reach of the petrol bombs thrown by the crowd outside. Maybe, they say, a pro-Russian dropped a petrol bomb by accident.

Ah, an inside job. Accidentally threw it against a closed window and then made it so people couldn't escape. Clever.

Who was inside to do an inside job? Who was trapped in and who came in freely and could leave again with no fear of the mob, as soon as they "dropped" their bottles against some walls and doors?

I haven't been following closely, but me mate Petri has, keeping this page at ACLOS "Odessa Trade Union massacre" (a name I endorse, and see also the talk page)- a lot of unverified allegations from both sides, especiially anti-Putschist sources, some thoughts, and all the visuals they have the support what they're saying. Some really disturbing stuff, some of it undeniably on video of that scene.

Especially see the sub-page Denis Cherkasov videos (originals pulled in embarrassment, mirrors around) - that's where. as available, you can see the Maidan youths in the building smashing in locked doors ... to save people from the fire that's about to start? In another, it's already starting just now in the stairwell as the youth start to leave. A bit later, several facially-battered people are seen being carried away. I haven't seen them all, some may be unavailable ATM. Petri has copies of most at least.

Maybe in those videos but surely elsewhere you can see the ground floor escapes being torched from outside. People at the windows (to breathe, not escape, unless their room is actually on fire) are in the Cherkasov videos - in other videos/photos you can see them being shot at from the ground with rifles and pistols (some say 9 died from that alone)

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Of course he orchestrated it. You don't think Sergei Eisenstein just "happened" to be there to film it, do you?

 

[uke2se]

Get a new hobby.

 

[Dcdrac]

It certainly looks like Putin is rowing back fast, in this case though this was the inevitable result of what his policies have stirred up and not any deliberate new action on the part of Putin, I think, only as a matter of opinion mind you , that we shall see ethnic tensions boil over in the crimea when the Moscow installed government there tries to trample on the rights and living conditions of non Russians living there.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Of course he orchestrated it. You don't think Sergei Eisenstein just "happened" to be there to film it, do you?

Interesting enough aside. Didn't bother checking what exact connection to I guess the '44 (??) Odessa massacre ...

But the one 70 years later - might be state sponsored terrorism. Look who just "happened" to actually be there: Andriy Parubiy, National Social party co-founder (but of course NOT a neo-Nazi), who in February was Euromaidan commandant who let the "Spetsnaz" snipers (he says) both in and out without a hitch ... for that "failure," he was made Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council for all Ukraine. Huh. Now he runs the "counter-terrorism" operations against the huge swathe of Ukraine where the people don't agree to this "huh"-plagued new government.

This includes Odessa. He was seen there on April 29 meeting local reps of the planned counter-terrorist operation, including a guy identified as Mikola Volkov (see here - English with gory scrolling banner images - without the gore but in German) Volkov is a deputized criminal later seen (looking a bit like an off-duty cop I thought) shooting a pistol at the Trade Unions building and phoning in false reports. Then the “Ukrainian rally” torched the building to hide the murder of perhaps 272 citizens in this “counter-terrorist” massacre.

Recent interview, Parubiy's take on what happened:

Q: Regarding the snipers at Maidan, you say the investigation is ongoing. How about this tragedy, this carnage in Odessa on 4 May [sic]?

A: This is a classic example of how Russia provokes, aiming at unleashing civil unrest and bloodshed. On that day, there was a football match. The fans had gathered and when they started marching with Ukrainian flags, a group of people started shooting at them with military guns. A few people were killed on the spot. In this group were citizens of Russia, which had come from Transnistria [a Russia-controlled breakaway territory of Moldova].

(nothing cut out here - he just jumps this far)

When the explosion happened in the House of the Trade Unions, experts have shown that the substance that provoked it had been stored there a long time ago. The House of the Trade Unions was a kind of headquarters for the separatists, it was not controlled by the authorities, nor by the opposition. And the substance that provoked the blaze was brought there during this period of time [when the separatists controlled the building]. I’m not saying that this substance was inflamed on purpose. But when Molotov cocktails were thrown from the fourth floor at the participants of the Ukrainian rally, the substance inflamed.

It is true that the Russian propaganda is very strong today. Because it moves like a tactical corps and looks stronger than the free press, which will always show all points of view. We ask those interested to come and take part in the investigation. We invited international experts to participate in an international committee, so they could base their opinion on facts, and not on what Russian TV says.

Odessa was a classic provocation in which pro-Russian groups had to seize the administration buildings in the same way it happened in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Oh really? They had to occupy the building ... as soon as the mob torched their tent camp out front. They were chased in, and as we can see followed in. Parubiy invites people to come hear his "experts" say stuff. Others invite you to look at the friggin' images of this obvious and horrific state-sponsored terrorism against citizens the cabal disagrees with.

As for "the free press, which will always show all points of view..." anyone yet find a mainstream, free, western media source that even mentions the attacking "rally" actually entering the building and smashing down doors, or a death toll any higher than the 42 cited, etc.? This is a point of view, and a well-supported one, that seems to not exist in our free media.

Maybe Russia's isn't free either, but maybe the two views taken together is a start ... today, a new documentary from Russia1 channel (with new info summarized Via Vladimir Suchan on Facebook (Russian-language video report included) - not necessarily 100% true but worth considering at least:

Additional information about the Odessa massacre of May 2: the Odessa police gave personal information about the survivors (witnesses) to the Right Sector which started hunting them down. As a result, an additional 19 people were killed after May 2, and others went into hiding. A former deputy head of the Odessa police, now relocated to Kolomeysky's Dniepropetrovsk, confirms in an interview the personal involvement of Parubiy, the head of the Ukrainian Defense and Security Council, in the organization of the massacre. About 70 fascist paramilitaries were hiding at the 3rd floor ahead of the attack on the Trade Union building (other reports also identified such an earlier deployment of fascists militants prior the attack itself in the basement of the building.) A poisonous gas was, indeed, used: it was "burning" the lungs and causing loss of consciousness and memory for those who were able to survive it. The junta was afraid that celebrations of Victory Day on May 9 (victory over fascism) might lead to the loss of Odessa.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Get a new hobby.

oh joy, you have advice/criticism for me. I've made a small hobby of keeping track of this:

That's not a sniper. Concealed is not part of the definition of sniper. That sniper on the lawn is concealed - just look at him! Show me the math on that rectangle. Fly to Kiev and find shell casings. The UN said x about the August CW attack yet you said y about the March attack. Why did you lie? Why did you lie? Why did you lie? I was always talking about the March CW attack.

Get a new hobby.

Finally one I can agree to.

 

[carlitos]

Caustic Logic - the 2 main sources you cited in your post 2 above are Russia Today and Channel 1 Russia. I realize that you claim to want to understand both sides of this issue, but why do you give any credence to such obvious propagandists for the Russian state?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Caustic Logic - the 2 main sources you cited in your post 2 above are Russia Today and Channel 1 Russia. I realize that you claim to want to understand both sides of this issue, but why do you give any credence to such obvious propagandists for the Russian state?

Wow, that's not disingenuous.

Please point me to CNN or other mainstream Western coverage of this info and this video evidence. I've been looking and asking for it, and it seems there's little to none.

If that's so, what should I do? Go where I can find it like I've done, so it can be brought up and considered? Or help us all pretend it doesn't exist? Except of course as (video-fakery) propaganda that's best tuned out?

Thanks for helping to clarify this perplexing aspect of info-citizenship.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Can we all observe a quick moment of silence for the death of professional journalism?




Thanks.

 

[carlitos]

Western journalistic outlets aren't issuing counter-propaganda? So what?

Video fakery? Welcome to the CT subforum.

 

[uke2se]

Get a new hobby.

Finally one I can agree to.

So why don't you?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Western journalistic outlets aren't issuing counter-propaganda? So what?

Did you notice that didn't answer my challenge? You've just confirmed that our "free" media isn't touching this act of state-sponsored terrorism. They say nothing about except about what Kiev tells them - there was a fire that started inside, only the separatists were inside, about 40 people died, details are sketchy and always will be. Even though video and photos prove it happened way differently than that.

Am I even allowed to link to the photo of a pregnant woman strangled to death with a cord? Kiev's story has no slot for that murder, for example. If they do, it'll be - vaguely - "Putin did it."

Unless... the imagery was all faked, maybe on a mock-up sound stage deep inside Russia?

Video fakery? Welcome to the CT subforum.

So are you taking that position? If not, on what basis do you dismiss it?

Can we all observe a quick moment of silence for the death of professional journalism?




Thanks.

"Death of" might be a bit strong. But this is a serious problem, and I observed the moment.

Although I suppose, this forum community being what it is, you meant the reports coming out of Odessa made you say that. You'd rather we heard nothing about the incident but what Parubiy and his ilk spew, right?

What did the people of Odessa do to deserve such total apathy over their brutal mass murder?

 

[catsmate]

Can we all observe a quick moment of silence for the death of professional journalism?

Thanks.

Well RT is basically a relaunched Pravda.

So why don't you?

Non-binary thinking.

 

[Caustic Logic]

So this RT report I linked, for example, is bound to be full of lies. Since Stalin basically wrote it. Let's get specific for once.

Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape

First video - fake?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnu0vteNto

Do they characterize it wrong?

New video has emerged online which shows a man shooting at the windows of Odessa’s burning House of Trade Unions. At least 39 anti-government activists died in the flames on May 2 in the building besieged and set ablaze by radicals.

A man in the video is wearing a bulletproof vest and is shooting several times in the direction of the burning House of Trade Unions.

Then another video - can't vouch for the translation, is it a lie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgiTb3ed65w

Another video of the same man shows him speaking on the phone passionately arguing that he and his people are unarmed, while having to confront armed anti-government protesters. The man introduces himself as sotnik Mykola (“sotnik” is what Maidan group leaders in Kiev call themselves) He also says he was wounded in the leg by protesters, although he doesn’t look hurt in the footage.

After dismantling the lies in this clumsy state propaganda, someone point me to a more honest assessment of this guy's actions. Something run from New York or London instead of Moscow. They're sure to have more videos and a fuller, more honest, more free reporting, to put Mikola back in context.

Oh, no one could do either? What a surprise. No one cares? Wow. Shock.

 

[uke2se]

So this RT report I linked, for example, is bound to be full of lies. Since Stalin basically wrote it. Let's get specific for once.

Radicals shooting at people in Odessa’s burning building caught on tape

First video - fake?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypnu0vteNto

Do they characterize it wrong?


Then another video - can't vouch for the translation, is it a lie?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgiTb3ed65w


After dismantling the lies in this clumsy state propaganda, someone point me to a more honest assessment of this guy's actions. Something run from New York or London instead of Moscow. They're sure to have more videos and a fuller, more honest, more free reporting, to put Mikola back in context.

Oh, no one could do either? What a surprise. No one cares? Wow. Shock.

It's always the same with you, isn't it?

The videos show a man firing on a building. So? Does that prove any of the many assertions that you and others have made? It doesn't show who started the fire, and it doesn't cast any light on the conspiracy theory you are trying to build regarding Andriy Parubiy.

As I said, get a new hobby. You are dreadful at this one, and it's pretty disgusting to watch.