Seven dead in drive by California shootings

[colander]

It seems pretty obvious that the fellow was mentally ill.

As with most fields of human knowledge, the more you learn about psychology, the less "obvious" you'll find things become. Are personality disorders mental illnesses? It's not really a settled question. Unlike most things we classify as mental illness, we don't generally consider personality disorders to relieve so-afflicted criminals of any moral culpability, and we can't cure them.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

One thing that is clear to me after reading his manifesto and watching more of his videos, is that MRAs and the MRM as a whole, as well as PUAs, have little to do with his progression into a murderer.
He had a lot of issues with his small stature and lack of athleticism from a young age.

 

[LashL]

Saying that someone has narcissistic personality disorder is just clinician-speak for "self-centered jerk". As far as I know, there aren't any therapeutic interventions that have ever been shown to be effective in treating it. That's not really an explanation for his behavior, just a description.

Yes, the whole "Internet diagnosis" thing is silly, I agree. The fellow obviously had serious mental health issues, but purporting to diagnose them here is ridiculous.

 

[SimplyAghast]

This case is insane. I always thought so many of these shooting or terrorist attacks stemmed from men not being able to get laid.... But I never seen a guy outright admit it.

The other thing is... he's driving a beamer.... how can you not get laid? You drive one of them where I live and we might have to lock up our wives.

Well, this isn't A+ or FTB, so I wouldn't want you censured in any way, but I think everyone is offended that you would say that "shootings" and "terrorist attacks" stem from men being unable to get laid. I don't know your personal experiences, but I assure you that men are not evil, sex-obsessed predator killers.

And the fact that a normal-looking 22-year-old dude with rich parents who is driving a Beemer can't get laid DEFINITELY speaks to his MASSIVE MENTAL ILLNESS.

No idea which specific mental illness(es) yet, but initial information certainly suggests that he was labouring under one or more. Are you of the view that he was simply "evil" or somesuch?

I genuinely thank you for your logic and fairness. As I've made clear in this thread, his anti-PUA or MRA connections, whatever they may have been, are completely irrelevant. His actions demonstrate that he had SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS, even if some would like to attribute the actions to the ideas of one or more groups whose general membership is kill spree-free.

 

[colander]

Yes, the whole "Internet diagnosis" thing is silly, I agree. The fellow obviously had serious mental health issues, but purporting to diagnose them here is ridiculous.

I don't think there's anything ridiculous about discussing this. A lot of interesting social and philosophical issues intersect here. You're welcome to read something else if you aren't interested, though.

 

[marplots]

Ted Bundy without the charm.

 

[LashL]

Yes, the whole "Internet diagnosis" thing is silly, I agree. The fellow obviously had serious mental health issues, but purporting to diagnose them here is ridiculous.

I don't think there's anything ridiculous about discussing this.

Nobody has said there was anything ridiculous about "discussing this" (the incident). Most of the folks in this particular thread are actually trying to "discuss this" (the incident). You, however, seem to be deliberately going off on nonsensical tangents that have little to do with the conversation.

That aside, what part of "the fellow obviously had serious mental health issues, but purporting to diagnose them here is ridiculous" is it that you take issue with?

And what do you think about random amateurs purporting to make specific mental health diagnoses of strangers on the internet?

 

[Checkmite]

It's probably easier to kill neighbors with a knife rather than strangers. Still he only knifed men, which is pretty impressive, but I'm not prepared to say he's the "ultimate alpha male."

In his autobiography, he mentions that his plan for his "retribution" begins with knifing his roommates to death in their sleep.

 

[Checkmite]

It seems pretty obvious that the fellow was mentally ill.

But I don't think anything at all is gained by random non-expert posters purporting to diagnose his specific mental illness(es) over the internet.

Well which is it? Should we be commenting on his mental health or shouldn't we? I don't think "he was obviously mentally ill" is different enough from "I think he had mental illness X" to be okay when the other is not.

 

[DavidJames]

I find this post highly ironic as he did use a knife to kill half his victims. You might also remember 13 years ago in the same town when another son of a director killed 4, with a car. Yes, if somehow magically there were no guns in this country, we would not have any shootings, but crazy people who want to be the "angel of death" would still perform mass killings.

yeah, shame on me for posting that before I knew all the facts. And yes people do kill with tools other than guns. But the carnage we tolerate in this country because we love guns is still unacceptable.

 

[Checkmite]

One thing that is clear to me after reading his manifesto and watching more of his videos, is that MRAs and the MRM as a whole, as well as PUAs, have little to do with his progression into a murderer.
He had a lot of issues with his small stature and lack of athleticism from a young age.

I got exactly the opposite impression from the manifesto, I'm afraid. His anger at being smaller than other kids seems to have ended as a teenager. By the time of his killing spree he repeatedly describes himself as an ideal and perfect man. On the other hand, after mentioning the PUA website he joined, he cannot stop talking about the women-as-evil-animals ideology that he picked up from it.

 

[Cain]

In his autobiography, he mentions that his plan for his "retribution" begins with knifing his roommates to death in their sleep.

OK, I just lost all respect for him.

Also, from what I've read he's alleged to have posted on a forum that was anti-pickup artist (puahate.com).

 

[Checkmite]

Also, from what I've read he's alleged to have posted on a forum that was anti-pickup artist (puahate.com).

Well yes, but the name is a little deceiving. One might get the impression from the phrase "anti-PUA" that these people have some kind of ideological opposition to PUAs - say, their objectification of women, maybe; but the truth is, the only problem that anti-PUA sites actually have with PUAs is that the latter's techniques for scoring vagina aren't effective.

The site PUAhate.com doesn't seem to be working anymore; but here's an editorial from a couple of years ago describing the site.

 

[SezMe]

And the fact that a normal-looking 22-year-old dude with rich parents who is driving a Beemer can't get laid DEFINITELY speaks to his MASSIVE MENTAL ILLNESS.

NO IT DOESN'T. Just stop with that assertion. There are many reasons why he was unable to be attractive to females. Maybe he had really bad breath. Or body odor.

Note that he was NOT attending UCSB but was going to Santa Barbara City College. This suggests to me that he may be deficient in the smarts department. So if he was a bit dull and shy, then his chances with the ladies would be further diminished.

In short, there's a lot going on with this kid. Simply shouting "MASSIVE MENTAL ILLNESS" is counterproductive, at best.

 

[Vermonter]

What a sense of entitlement!

Must be something other than his looks. Probably because he's a gigantic creep with a huge sense of entitlement, overinflated ego and anger issues.

Still, if he put in a little bit of effort he probably could have gotten laid.

The guy in the video has/had a huge case of Nice Guy Syndrome. "I'm a nice guy, why aren't you boning me?!" I can see why people avoided him. This kid was nothing but a creep. If he wasn't in trouble before for sexual assault I would be surprised. It's a pity that nothing was done, even with the preventative alarms going off.

 

[Dissolution]

For all you people who feel you must take a pro or anti gun stance, the latest news is that first he killed 3 in his apartment, with a knife. Then he killed three from his car using guns. #7 was the perp himself, but I haven't heard how or by who.

He shot himself in the head after being wounded by the police.

Seems that this could've been prevented, as he gave rather a large amount of warning signs off with his behaviour, but a fair number of guys his age are misogynistic idiots with strange fantasies, so maybe this is just another case of having 20-20 hindsight?
His family requesting an intervention from the authorities looks like a massive red flag to me, though.

 

[colander]

NO IT DOESN'T. Just stop with that assertion. There are many reasons why he was unable to be attractive to females. Maybe he had really bad breath. Or body odor.

Well, I skimmed the manifesto and it's a lot simpler than that. The guy never actually asked anyone out. Instead, he just kind of puttered around town all the time in hopes that his dazzling majesty would cause attractive girls to approach him.

 

[LashL]

Well which is it? Should we be commenting on his mental health or shouldn't we? I don't think "he was obviously mentally ill" is different enough from "I think he had mental illness X" to be okay when the other is not.

To me, it seems that there is a big difference between a layperson being able to recognize that a person has a problem in a particular area and the problem needing to be assessed by someone with expertise in the relevant area.

E.g. It can be obvious to a layperson that someone has a legal problem, but he needs a lawyer to assess and determine the extent of the legal issue.

E.g. It can be obvious to a layperson that someone has a medical problem, but he needs a physician to assess and determine the extent of the medical problem.

E.g. It can be obvious that a layperson that someone has a psychiatric problem, but he needs a psychiatrist to assess and determine the extent of the psychiatric issue.

Etc.

 

[Checkmite]

To me, it seems that there is a big difference between a layperson being able to recognize that a person has a problem in a particular area and the problem needing to be assessed by someone with expertise in the relevant area.

E.g. It can be obvious to a layperson that someone has a legal problem, but he needs a lawyer to assess and determine the extent of the legal issue.

E.g. It can be obvious to a layperson that someone has a medical problem, but he needs a physician to assess and determine the extent of the medical problem.

E.g. It can be obvious that a layperson that someone has a psychiatric problem, but he needs a psychiatrist to assess and determine the extent of the psychiatric issue.

Etc.

I don't really buy that. I think that whenever somebody says "I think you have a medical problem" (or legal, or whatever), they usually think they have a pretty good idea what that problem more specifically is, even when they concede that the person should probably talk to a doctor or lawyer (or whatever) about it. When was the last time anybody ever told you that they thought you had a "nonspecific medical problem that a doctor should have a look at"? No, it's, "that cut looks infected" or "that cough sounds pretty bad, you should go and get it taken care of".

How credible is a statement like "I think you're mentally ill, even though I have no idea what that mental illness is"? The sentiment rebuts itself. How can you believe someone might have a problem if you can't even define that problem?

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

I got exactly the opposite impression from the manifesto, I'm afraid. His anger at being smaller than other kids seems to have ended as a teenager. By the time of his killing spree he repeatedly describes himself as an ideal and perfect man. On the other hand, after mentioning the PUA website he joined, he cannot stop talking about the women-as-evil-animals ideology that he picked up from it.

Yeah, good points, actually. In fairness, though, the other members of that site, based on the cached posts I've read, basically said he was a loser for doing this, which indicates that he was at odds with their views and ideals.