Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Grinder]

For someone who leads the league in demanding citations, you certainly are not shy about communicating innuendo yourself.

You'd probably last longer on the hate sites than I gave you credit for....

A neutral observer might conclude that with all your resources that you have special connections. You bring some very obscure sites to our attention. Nothing wrong with that, but you also pillory pro-guilt people and their. web sites.

The latest blog is very well written, almost professional, and yet Mr. Mays has no prints on the net.

Since you've demanded to know who McCall is, I would think you want to know who all the people are that you refer here.

When Tesla (Grasshopper) called me on the jailhouse confidentiality I responded. I didn't have proof and made that clear.

Let's have a vote. Are conversations in Italy between client and lawyer secure while in jail?

 

[acbytesla]

What is completely gobsmacking....

Is the contention that when anyone takes a look at this case by themselves, and then expresses an opinion about complete innocence and complete lack of eivdence........

...... someone will play the Gogerty-Marriott card. Yessirree Bob, the only reason someone would think that Sollecito and Knox are innocent is if they're on the payroll of a second-tier Seattle PR firm.

I mean, it's not as if there hasn't been a PR Supertanker on the other side.... Harry Rag comes to mind, completely anonymous, but there at each on-line newspiece comment's section to cut and past "mixed blood" and the so-called "overwhelming evidence" that points to guilt.

(If it's overwhelming, why does Nencini have to invent that women have Y-genetic material? But I digress.)

Yup - if it weren't for accusations that pro-innocence people must be in the employ of Gogerty-Marriott of Seattle, some would have nothing to post to forums about.

Frankly Bill, I think the vast majority of people who review this without getting mesmerized by TJMK etc right off the bat come to t he conclusion that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

The whole "supertanker" Gogerty Mariott PR war is blown way out of proportion. For a long time the prosecution was having a field day leaking info and tainted stories to the press, that the press ate up like a starving dog. The problem though is that when Amanda started getting some serious allies that you wouldn't think to be on her side, the press and the public started listening....and then considering. The truth is always a better story than fiction. Their problem is their stories didn't add up and they kept changing. Patrick Lumumba wasn't involved, then the shoe prints didn't fit, then it wasn't a satanic ritual, then it wasn't a sex orgy gone awry.

Hard to be convincing when the story is always changing.

 

[Bill Williams]

A neutral observer might conclude that with all your resources that you have special connections. You bring some very obscure sites to our attention. Nothing wrong with that, but you also pillory pro-guilt people and their. web sites.

The latest blog is very well written, almost professional, and yet Mr. Mays has no prints on the net.

Since you've demanded to know who McCall is, I would think you want to know who all the people are that you refer here.

When Tesla (Grasshopper) called me on the jailhouse confidentiality I responded. I didn't have proof and made that clear.

Let's have a vote. Are conversations in Italy between client and lawyer secure while in jail?

And this "neutral observer" is........? Talk about omitting the citation while still communicating the innuendo.... are you sure you're not a True Crime author?

But thank you anyway for assuming that I have immense powers when Facebook and Google are all I have.

Once again, playing the man, not the issue. Ad hominem.

 

[Bill Williams]

Grinder:

Dog Whistle politics​

 

[Grinder]

What is completely gobsmacking....

Is the contention that when anyone takes a look at this case by themselves, and then expresses an opinion about complete innocence and complete lack of eivdence........

...... someone will play the Gogerty-Marriott card. Yessirree Bob, the only reason someone would think that Sollecito and Knox are innocent is if they're on the payroll of a second-tier Seattle PR firm.

I mean, it's not as if there hasn't been a PR Supertanker on the other side.... Harry Rag comes to mind, completely anonymous, but there at each on-line newspiece comment's section to cut and past "mixed blood" and the so-called "overwhelming evidence" that points to guilt.

(If it's overwhelming, why does Nencini have to invent that women have Y-genetic material? But I digress.)

Yup - if it weren't for accusations that pro-innocence people must be in the employ of Gogerty-Marriott of Seattle, some would have nothing to post to forums about.

Bill do you believe that every pro-guilt person is somehow a Mignini operative as you seem to have accused Vogt and Mach on many occasions.

This graph from Mays makes me think that it was not written by just someone:

Unlike Knox, who had no history of criminality, Guede was a one man crime wave during the weeks leading up to the murder. He was arrested multiple times and his criminal modus operandi foreshadowed many of the elements of the Kercher murder: he broke in through second story windows, helped himself to food, defecated in the toilet, stole money and electronic items, and threatened people with knives​

I note that you haven't been complaining about your lack of pay from Marriott lately.

There is no doubt that a small band of PGP have filled comment sections and twitters with their bile.

I've advocated FOA making videos featuring Amanda as the hostess and then showing the "evidence" and laying out the lack of a case. I have no issue with the use of PR. If this is orchestrated by the defense, I think they should own it.

 

[Desert Fox]

Let's have a vote. Are conversations in Italy between client and lawyer secure while in jail?

Where else in the Western World do you have to plead guilty or innocent in the Twenty-First century before you are given a long talk with your lawyer?

 

[acbytesla]

A neutral observer might conclude that with all your resources that you have special connections. You bring some very obscure sites to our attention. Nothing wrong with that, but you also pillory pro-guilt people and their. web sites.

The latest blog is very well written, almost professional, and yet Mr. Mays has no prints on the net.

Since you've demanded to know who McCall is, I would think you want to know who all the people are that you refer here.

When Tesla (Grasshopper) called me on the jailhouse confidentiality I responded. I didn't have proof and made that clear.

Let's have a vote. Are conversations in Italy between client and lawyer secure while in jail?

I didn't ask the question as a tit for a tat Grinder. It wouldn't surprise me that they did...but I don't really know. For me it's like a saying from a movie..not sure I remember which where one of the characters said. "Just because you happen to be paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you".

I''d love to know who Mays is, he does write very well. (Another thing we agree on..must be the Seventh Sign).

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill do you believe that every pro-guilt person is somehow a Mignini operative as you seem to have accused Vogt and Mach on many occasions.

I note that you haven't been complaining about your lack of pay from Marriott lately.

1. You accuse of seeing every pro-guilt person by pointing to two. Great logic.

2. I'm about to.

 

[Bill Williams]

ETA - ever since David Marriott personally assigned me the "Grinder file", I've been miserable.

I don't do "neutral observers" well. I told David..... er, Mr. Marriott this. He tacked on a couple more weekends at his time-share in San Diego. So I took it.

Not worth it.

 

[Grinder]

1. You accuse of seeing every pro-guilt person by pointing to two. Great logic.

2. I'm about to.

Bill and you see I don't point at every PIP as a FOA. Tesla, Desert, Anglo and many others here to name a few.

Tesla, I did think you were calling me out and thought it appropriate. I would use mafia code if locked up in Italy when talking to my attorney.

While I know that many prison visits are recorded here, it does seem more likely in Italy that all conversations are at jeopardy but you are correct my best facts do not confirm it.

Maybe Bill or another will contact Frank and asked him.

 

[katy_did]

Very good grasshopper.

Only things I can think of off the bat ( think wheelhouse) is that Mignini was prosecuted for tapping calls of journalists and police as well as the recording of conversations between Amanda and her parents when she was in jail. As I recall the parents were aware that their conversations were being monitored hence the "I was there" kerfuffle.

Perhaps Anglo has something on this specifically from his wide reading.

Or maybe an Italian could give us an idea on this.

Amanda's lawyers seemed to think their meetings with her were recorded - in her book she quotes Ghirga as saying "Let's not forget the other guests at the party" or something along those lines at the beginning of every meeting, referring to the police listening in.

 

[acbytesla]

Bill and you see I don't point at every PIP as a FOA. Tesla, Desert, Anglo and many others here to name a few.

Tesla, I did think you were calling me out and thought it appropriate. I would use mafia code if locked up in Italy when talking to my attorney.

I know you did and do....but I wasn't. I was just genuinely curious and never even thought how appropriate it was...lol.

While I know that many prison visits are recorded here, it does seem more likely in Italy that all conversations are at jeopardy but you are correct my best facts do not confirm it.

Maybe Bill or another will contact Frank and asked him.

My bet is that they were recording those meetings. I put nothing past them considering what we have seen them do....kind of like I'd bet money that all these posts are being copied into the NSA database somewhere.

I've been reading about the Dreyfus affair and it is amazing some of the similarities to this case...but maybe that similarity is just emblematic of any wrongful prosecution and conviction.

 

[Bill Williams]

My bet is that they were recording those meetings. I put nothing past them considering what we have seen them do....kind of like I'd bet money that all these posts are being copied into the NSA database somewhere.

I've been reading about the Dreyfus affair and it is amazing some of the similarities to this case...but maybe that similarity is just emblematic of any wrongful prosecution and conviction.

Almost certainly they were recording things with abandon. My conspiratorial mind says that the source behind True Crime author John Follain is these kind of sources. How else would Follain even pretend to be able to know details of conversations between Amanda and her mother, even in the months into the detention?

My other completely conspiratorial thought is that if there had been ANYTHING remotely incriminating in this taping, it would have made its way to court. The irony is that the only thing they had, really was the "I was there" comment by Amanda to her mother, meaning that Amanda said she was at Raffaele's.

This got spun.... as per everything else that got spun in the media, up to and including Andrea Vogt reporting on it in the Seattle newspapers as if this was a confession (with no retraction), and Machiavelli spun it here in these very JREF threads as part of "mafia code" between Amanda and her mother.

The very nature of the overwhelming surveillance and the paucity of anything gleaned relevant to the crime is really all one needs to consider.

 

[Desert Fox]

I've been reading about the Dreyfus affair and it is amazing some of the similarities to this case...but maybe that similarity is just emblematic of any wrongful prosecution and conviction.

It would have also been in an inquisitorial system for what it is worth.
Be nice if we at least got some debaters her that are under other countries with the inquisitorial system. Like them to argue how they might see Italy.

 

[acbytesla]

Almost certainly they were recording things with abandon. My conspiratorial mind says that the source behind True Crime author John Follain is these kind of sources. How else would Follain even pretend to be able to know details of conversations between Amanda and her mother, even in the months into the detention?

My other completely conspiratorial thought is that if there had been ANYTHING remotely incriminating in this taping, it would have made its way to court. The irony is that the only thing they had, really was the "I was there" comment by Amanda to her mother, meaning that Amanda said she was at Raffaele's.

This got spun.... as per everything else that got spun in the media, up to and including Andrea Vogt reporting on it in the Seattle newspapers as if this was a confession (with no retraction), and Machiavelli spun it here in these very JREF threads as part of "mafia code" between Amanda and her mother.

The very nature of the overwhelming surveillance and the paucity of anything gleaned relevant to the crime is really all one needs to consider.

I have always thought that the cultural differences between Italy and the US and the LANGUAGE translation are the biggest reasons for this mess. Amanda's attempt at translating the common English farewell "see you later" into Italian. The issue with the translator. Probably every interaction Amanda had trying to relate to the Italians up until the time she was arrested.

Going after the foreigner is not unusual anywhere. Xenophobia is common even if it is an unconscious and un-deliberate xenophobia. Amanda stood out like a sore thumb and they weren't comfortable with who Amanda was. The "I was there" of course with it's true implied meaning I was there at Raffaele's not the cottage was the best they could do after years of monitoring everything Amanda did.

Pretty sad...most sad that they didn't recognize just how bad they screwed up.

 

[RandyN]

They muzzled Frank? Frank Sfarzo? Are you delirious?

I'm not saying that they didn't gave it the old college try........

OK then ...please link the "hidden" Perugia Shock site that carries all the articles from oh...say the last two years or so right up to the present. Id say your argument is delirious if you think he has not been significantly muzzled...comparatively at least. The one or two short articles he writes on IP or where ever are not what Frank normally reported.

Frank has been all but silenced. Luca Cheli writes more than Frank now and I doubt he ever attended even one session of this multiple years long group of trials.

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by RandyN View Post
Now one might argue that this is a "no motive" motive, but that is just silly. 3 people coming together to kill a fourth and to rape and steal from her requires a motive IMHO.

OTOH...one lone crazy killer who kills and rapes and steals from a lone girl does not require much motive to be explained.

Desert Fox says...

"There is a military term called
Kiss = Keep It Simple Stupid.
In this case with human interactions, it is best to look for simple solutions first before going to the complex and bizarre.
One person doing similar crimes alone is pretty common even if we do not like that it is the case."




Hummm...this seems to be exactly what I said but thanks for repeating my point.


KISS = What is Occam's Razor? This has been covered...but in case you missed it.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html
__________________

 

[RandyN]

Grinder, the member we love to hate.

Grinder is closer to Yummi/Mach than anyone else in value to this case. His points are mostly irrelevant distractions from the real problems in this case. Those real problems center around a ridiculous, baseless case proceeding for almost 7 years now in spite of the elephants standing all over the place...no matter where one looks...there are elephants... Interrogation, arrest, interrupter, lawyer elephants. DNA, computer, recording elephants. Missing evidence, destroyed crime scene, non-investigation elements elephants. Withheld evidence discovery, false control data, lying scientist elephants...

Meanwhile Grinder squashes piss ants and that is a good why? Its a useless distraction and a waste of his knowledge. Arguments like his keep this prosecution case relevant and alive rather than allow it to become the laughing stock it should long ago be known as....

It is all simply "look a squirrel!" And then "look another one!" and there goes a red one...and a black!!! Meanwhile guys like Nencini and a whole other herd of elephants are squashing justice, logic and sanity and getting away with it without review or investigation or even proper reporting...because of why or what? Meaningless distractions that keep the real story hidden.

The US mainstream media did stories about the "Knox CCTV" thing. Now how is that even possible and why is no one taking and complaining to the news agencies? We know its BS...but how can CBS, ABC, CNN not know? This still seems to be a mystery case to even them. How can it remain so?

 

[acbytesla]

Grinder is closer to Yummi/Mach than anyone else in value to this case. His points are mostly irrelevant distractions from the real problems in this case. Those real problems center around a ridiculous, baseless case proceeding for almost 7 years now in spite of the elephants standing all over the place...no matter where one looks...there are elephants... Interrogation, arrest, interrupter, lawyer elephants. DNA, computer, recording elephants. Missing evidence, destroyed crime scene, non-investigation elements elephants. Withheld evidence discovery, false control data, lying scientist elephants...

Meanwhile Grinder squashes piss ants and that is a good why? Its a useless distraction and a waste of his knowledge. Arguments like his keep this prosecution case relevant and alive rather than allow it to become the laughing stock it should long ago be known as....

It is all simply "look a squirrel!" And then "look another one!" and there goes a red one...and a black!!! Meanwhile guys like Nencini and a whole other herd of elephants are squashing justice, logic and sanity and getting away with it without review or investigation or even proper reporting...because of why or what? Meaningless distractions that keep the real story hidden.

The US mainstream media did stories about the "Knox CCTV" thing. Now how is that even possible and why is no one taking and complaining to the news agencies? We know its BS...but how can CBS, ABC, CNN not know? This still seems to be a mystery case to even them. How can it remain so?

I don't know about this Randy. Grinder drives a lot of us crazy, but without him this truly becomes singing to the choir.

I agree that Nencini and the Italian judiciary is insane and illogical. The reality is there is no fight here any more. This is not the front lines of this battle. It is in Italy, and in the press. Grinder makes us be honest about the arguments down to the last detail. While Grinder doesn't think the Italian judiciary has a case, he is not interested in a PIP love fest.

There is probably a better use of our time than picking over this carcass. I know I should be doing something else. But something draws me back here.

 

[anglolawyer]

It is probably a breach of the MA to be discussing Grinder rather than the points he makes. Some are quite good some of the time. It is useful not to be allowed to make statements you can't back up and to be reminded of this occasionally is beneficial. That said, I completely agree with Randy's elephants. The case reeks of corruption. Dreyfus indeed.