Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

Red Baron Farms said:
Off topic, irrelevant and not true. Now why would you carry over a strawman from a cut throat political forum to a science forum and use that strawman to call me a liar? It is meaningless. Yes Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution, but they don't want to hear about it or discuss it in the political forum. Period. They hate Bundy too much to consider anything but hard labor in jail and/or bloodshed. So be it. And politics is off topic here. But apparently Mudcat wants to discuss good land management. Which is a much broader subject that doesn't need to be connected to any particular person, politics or management system. That's why I made the post #12. Please refrain from your off topic personal attacks and muddled thinking and remember where you are now, JREF science forum. Thanks in advance.
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If all you can do is lie on the floor stomping your feet, and crying "why me" I guess we may as well lock the damn thread.

Grow up.
 
Red Baron Farms said:
Off topic, irrelevant and not true. Now why would you carry over a strawman from a cut throat political forum to a science forum and use that strawman to call me a liar? It is meaningless. Yes Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution, but they don't want to hear about it or discuss it in the political forum. Period. They hate Bundy too much to consider anything but hard labor in jail and/or bloodshed. So be it. And politics is off topic here. But apparently Mudcat wants to discuss good land management. Which is a much broader subject that doesn't need to be connected to any particular person, politics or management system. That's why I made the post #12. Please refrain from your off topic personal attacks and muddled thinking and remember where you are now, JREF science forum. Thanks in advance.
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Wouldn't cooperation of the tenant be a cornerstone of any land management approach? If the tenant refused to participate, or worse, actively works to destroy the land, wouldn't the first step, out of necessity, be to remove that tenant?

Perhaps, by way of example, how would holistic management have functioned in a case such as that in Bunkerville, except with a willing tenant (not Bundy)?
 
Red Baron Farms said:
See? In your anger and haste you just proved my point at least with regards to yourself. You resent the forcible injection of Holistic management into the Bundy thread. Now go look at the post made 16th May 2014 08:19 PM #8 that was split off to here. See the link? "Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study" You resent that forcible injection of Holistic management for conflict resolution. Isn't that true?
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No. I object to injecting it into the Bundy thread where it was clear that even IF it's promises weren't hippy-dippy BS, it wound have done jack to prevent or alleviate the Bundy conflict. Insisting Holistic Grazing could have helped is flat out reality denial. Insisting aliens built the pyramids is only slightly less absurd a proposition then suggesting Holistic Grazing training could have altered Bundy's course of action.

Red Baron Farms said:
If you wish to discuss good land management options here, I would be happy to discuss them with you as gentlemen.
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If I wanted to discuss good land management practices I certainly wouldn't be discussing Holistic Land Management. Regardless, HLM is the thread topic, so I'd like to ask you a serous question. How do you respond to the catastrophic and abject failure of HLM in Zimbabwe?
 
Red Baron Farms said:
Actually the only reason it isn't interesting to you and doesn't seem relevant is because you are approaching this whole issue from a win/lose paradigm. You are not interested in conflict resolution, only screw you Bundy! HM was actually developed originally for this purpose of conflict resolution of these types of "range wars". Originally in Africa where "drum beating natives" were being driven off their parks, instead of cowboy ranchers being driven from the public rangeland, but the principles parallel each other.

The thing about it is this though. HM has already been used successfully in the role of conflict resolution here in the US facing the same issues as found in Nevada. But apparently the Nevada BLM didn't get that memo.

Here is a case study from Texas: The Planlt Texas Story : Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study

Same fight for the same reasons but a completely different outcome. Still not too late to resolve this conflict the same way in my opinion.
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Sounds like HM has been around since '92 in Texas - has Bundy ever brought up HM in any of his (failed) court cases?

(Rhetorical question, as I've read his arguments and HM is nowhere to be found, please correct me if I'm wrong)

Bundy has no more authority to ignore court decisions that go against him than any other individual, and his refusal to comply with the BLM and his refusal to cooperate with the decisions that went against him make him no more than a scofflaw.
 
I am confused. Why are there so many questions that have nothing to do with the science of good land management practices and everything to do with Bundy? I could answer easily enough all these posts but the thread was split off that thread. Ask me there if you wish to know. All you'll end up doing here is anger the science community with your petty political community woo. Please guys, if you want to continue that political discussion, then ask in the political forum. That's why there is a political forum.

Meanwhile here on this thread, please stick to Mudcat's stated reason for dragging it here:
Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
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halleyscomet said:
If I wanted to discuss good land management practices I certainly wouldn't be discussing Holistic Land Management. Regardless, HLM is the thread topic, so I'd like to ask you a serous question. How do you respond to the catastrophic and abject failure of HLM in Zimbabwe?
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Actually it didn't fail. You have been reading too much propaganda blogging.

First off the Zimbabwe site started with absolutely barren ground, given to Savory to experiment on because it was "too far gone to recover". Savory managed to restore the land with his system of short duration grazing.

However, Zimbabwe went into civil war. Savory, although white, was in opposition to Ian Smith's white supremacist rule. He was forced to flee the country for his life. While he was gone, the land began to desertify again.

Later, when he returned, he not only very rapidly restored that land even better than before, he also developed a management system that could be used in his absence by anyone at any education level, including completely illiterate. It was that project that won the Buckminster Fuller award. It hasn't failed. Actually it has continued to rejuvenate steadily beyond what anyone even thought possible. Even through subsequent droughts. Even with returning resident wildlife not seen in that region for hundreds of years. And now the managers of that land no longer need the "expert" Savory present to make it work. They do so themselves.
 
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Red Baron Farms said:
Actually it didn't fail. You have been reading too much propaganda blogging.

First off the Zimbabwe site started with absolutely barren ground, given to Savory to experiment on because it was "too far gone to recover". Savory managed to restore the land with his system of short duration grazing.

However, Zimbabwe went into civil war. Savory, although white, was in opposition to Ian Smith's white supremacist rule. He was forced to flee the country for his life. While he was gone, the land began to desertify again.

Later, when he returned, he not only very rapidly restored that land even better than before, he also developed a management system that could be used in his absence by anyone at any education level, including completely illiterate. It was that project that won the Buckminster Fuller award. It hasn't failed. Actually it has continued to rejuvenate steadily beyond what anyone even thought possible. Even through subsequent droughts. Even with returning resident wildlife not seen in that region for hundreds of years. And now the managers of that land no longer need the "expert" Savory present to make it work. They do so themselves.
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Please, provide citations.
 
halleyscomet said:
Please, provide citations.
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Operation Hope

The Africa Center for Holistic Management, a 6,500-acre rangeland learning center that he created in 1992, is governed by a small group of trustees including Savory and five African chiefs. The work of the Center is a testament to the breakthrough methods for reversing desertification and its insidious impact on livelihoods, biodiversity and climate change. He has transformed large swaths of parched and degraded areas of the ranch into lush pastures replete with ponds and flowing streams even during periods of drought.
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Red Baron Farms said:
See? In your anger and haste you just proved my point at least with regards to yourself. You resent the forcible injection of Holistic management into the Bundy thread. Now go look at the post made 16th May 2014 08:19 PM #8 that was split off to here. See the link? "Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study" You resent that forcible injection of Holistic management for conflict resolution. Isn't that true?

Well I think it most certainly is a conflict and it most certainly is about grazing, so I thought that conflict resolution of a grazing conflict could be discussed on the political thread. Apparently not because it was split. So be it. I didn't complain. Sometimes when people get so emotionally involved in a political conflict they don't want a resolution. They only want blood. I can accept that. It is human nature.

But this is the science forum. Politics are off the table. Your strawmen are meaningless. Your personal attacks only make you look petty. Please remember where you are. If you wish to discuss good land management options here, I would be happy to discuss them with you as gentlemen. Please bring science citations to the discussion as well. Thanks in advance.
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Now would be a good time to bring up whatever you want about holistic management and quit taking pot shots at other posters.

Does holistic land management involve homeopathic cows?
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Those of us who are critical thinkers know that anything with the word "holistic" attached is most likely nonsense.
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Some reason why critical thinkers are only allowed to use reductionism?:jaw-dropp


ETA and please explain to me just exactly how it can be considered "critical" thinking to dismiss something away with a hand wave based on a connotation evoked by the equivocation fallacy of its name? That's critical thinking? Really?

PS But hey, if the English language scares you so much that you can't consider anything with the word "holism" in it. And you prefer to narrow things down with reductionism. Why not meet somewhere in the middle? Rest-Rotation is also on the board. No scary words or complicated concepts to muddle your ideas of critical thinking requirements. Why not comment about that? Or perhaps you have your own ideas on land management you'd like to share?
 
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Red Baron Farms said:
Some reason why critical thinkers are only allowed to use reductionism?:jaw-dropp


ETA and please explain to me just exactly how it can be considered "critical" thinking to dismiss something away with a hand wave based on a connotation evoked by the equivocation fallacy of its name? That's critical thinking? Really?

PS But hey, if the English language scares you so much that you can't consider anything with the word "holism" in it. And you prefer to narrow things down with reductionism. Why not meet somewhere in the middle? Rest-Rotation is also on the board. No scary words or complicated concepts to muddle your ideas of critical thinking requirements. Why not comment about that? Or perhaps you have your own ideas on land management you'd like to share?
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Anything more than self reported successes to make up our minds on?
 
BStrong said:
Anything more than self reported successes to make up our minds on?
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Well let's see.....

Here is a good example of improved land management from Australia.

Why pasture cropping is such a Big Deal I especially like this idea because it integrates permaculture, conventional no till industrial grain production and holistic managed planned grazing all into one big land regeneration, food producing system, all on the same land at the same time! I think it is huge because you get all the benefits from the economies of scale of industrial row crop production while simultaneously healing the land for future generations.

Another closer to home might be one of many educational trials and case studies found at The National Center for Appropriate Technology. Here is just one.

Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health Pay close attention to the Brown case study. They also use Holistic management on their leased public range integrated with conventional no till on their own farm. I have discussed this personally with Gabe Brown and we shared information that I found very helpful to try in my own project..and I hope he got some things from me to try in his operation.

Above is a audio/visual webinar presentation. However, for a simplified PDF, you can scan though here. Innovative No-Till: Using Multi-Species Cover Crops to Improve Soil Health

And for a published scientific study on some of the biophysical aspects try this:
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie

There is of course more...but that should get you started.

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aleCcowaN said:
Great to see holistic grazing having its own thread so the topic doesn't taint global warming's and other threads as it happened in the past.
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Funny how you should chose the weighted term "taint", every one of those links I just posted contains discussion of soil carbon. You can't separate soil carbon from the discussion of either holistic management, soil health, or global warming. It is a biological system and they are all related and intricately linked. Soil most certainly is a part of the carbon cycle. I wonder why discussing that makes you think it is "tainting" the subject of global warming? Doesn't the soil carbon come from the atmosphere ultimately via photosynthesis? Isn't atmospheric CO2 the primary driver of AGW?
 
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Red Baron Farms said:
Funny how you should chose the weighted term "taint", every one of those links I just posted contains discussion of soil carbon. You can't separate soil carbon from the discussion of either holistic management, soil health, or global warming. It is a biological system and they are all related and intricately linked. Soil most certainly is a part of the carbon cycle. I wonder why discussing that makes you think it is "tainting" the subject of global warming? Doesn't the soil carbon come from the atmosphere ultimately via photosynthesis? Isn't atmospheric CO2 the primary driver of AGW?
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After reading this piece of yours, tainting seems to be even righter.
 
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