Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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A bad DNA match on a knife and mixed blood in a bathroom they both shared?
Um, no. . . .
Let's say for example that the DNA on the knife wasn't a bad match. That it is a clear match on the knife and Conti and Vechiotti confirmed that DNA? I would still vote against convicting Amanda. It's not enough and there are potential other reasons for the match. Contamination is still always possible. Had it been blood..that would be harder for me.


I'm not really considering the "mixed DNA" not "mixed blood" in the shared bathroom.

If that roommate had a boat, was on that boat on the date of disappearance, and the body later found in the water where she was boating. . . .That is some pretty damning evidence.
It is, but if that person was out on their boat frequently, you might think less of it. Scott was not really known as an avid boater or fisherman.

I actually don't worry too much about the affair because my experience has been that it is more common than not (I am a former PI, guess what one major subject PIs investigate is?) and few result in murder.

This is true. Most people just cope with it. They get a divorce, they argue etc. That is what probably 99.9 percent of what people do. But that is is looking at it from the wrong side. Infidelity is a very common reason for violence and homicide between couples.

There is a big reason DF, that the spouse is the very first person homicide detectives consider as suspects.
 
They have the murder weapon with DNA of the defendant and the victim found in the defendant's flat. They have footprints in blood of both defendants and the DNA of one on the bra of the victim. One defendant accused an innocent man and they changed their stories as to what they were doing that night. The accounts of discovering the crime scene were inconsistent and unbelievable.

In other words the courts that convicted them thought they had a wealth of evdience and therefore motive is an afterthought.

Of course, if there is no evidence or only bad evidence and the conviction is based on soft circumstantial evidence such as behavior then reason or motive become more necessary.



Just for laughs why not give us the cases you've "seen" where they were convicted on motive alone?



Circumstantial evidence is usually physical evidence. Please specify what non physical evidence was used in combination with motive to convict someone in the recent past, say since fingerprints or maybe even DNA.

This line is backward anyway because the issue is whether a motive needs to be known. It doesn't. As mentioned before I was on the jury panel of a guy that killed someone he didn't know coming out of a club where he had been having a bachelor party. Maybe the guy looked at him wrong.



The evidence is tainted If the knife and bra were good then I'd convict, but it isn't. It shouldn't matter that the kids were whack-jobs or not, there was no evidence that stands up with enough weight to convict.

Lack of motive is just an add on.



Well there are blemishes but no evidence.



They have the murder weapon with DNA of the defendant and the victim found in the defendant's flat. They have footprints in blood of both defendants and the DNA of one on the bra of the victim. One defendant accused an innocent man and they changed their stories as to what they were doing that night. The accounts of discovering the crime scene were inconsistent and unbelievable. Motive, schmotive.

Oh and why did someone link that horrible piece by the nutter girl? Anyone knows that people that use more than two type faces and cursive script are narcissistic whack-jobs.

Actually this is something they are not suppose to have. In fact this is the main appeal item IMHO. Lumumbas arrest is a suspicious mess and it provides a clear picture of how truly %&*$ed up the legal system in Italy actually is.

The ISC ruled the statements purported to have come from the mouth of AK on Nov 5th/6th 2007 during her illegal interrogation to be inadmissible for her trial.

So this conclusion you make is as wrong as the other courts that have ignored the ISC original ruling. This is not something that is or at least should not be in the case files.

And forgot the civil matter tried concurrently and brought by Lumumba. This remains under appeal at the ECOHR. The result of their review will no doubt color the rest of the appeals that are certainly sure to follow this case no matter how the Italians decide to make up whatever they want to.

Also the "bloody footprints" were tested for blood and found to contain no blood. I find that another "little" problem the Italians face on appeal. Im thinking it nust have been turnip juice certainly! :-)
 
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I probably wasn't clear, I meant the video showed no glass on the clothes before the crime scene was altered. The point is that the fake wiki people talk about glass on top of clothes suggesting the glass was broken after the ransacking as in a staging. This young lady said she saw a video showing the opposite.

I've never understood the whole glass on top of the clothes or underneath the clothes argument. People including Rudy could have moved clothes about..so I'd imagine they would find both. Also the no glass being found outside was never very convincing. Now if most of the glass was found outside, then that would have told me that the window was broken from the inside. But if all the glass is on the inside, then it tells me the window was broken from outside.

The idea that this was "staged" was pulled out of their back sides because not many valuables were missing. Which I don't think is all that curious considering it went from being simple break in to a murder.

The argument that the break in was staged really is nothing more than hunch that police and the prosecution promoted. But there is nothing that really proves it. And given the guy with the history behind him in committing break ins was involved, you would think that they would just dismiss that.

But instead, they are declaring that the unlikely hunch is more probable than the physics and the pattern of break ins.
 
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They have the murder weapon with DNA of the defendant and the victim found in the defendant's flat. They have footprints in blood of both defendants and the DNA of one on the bra of the victim. One defendant accused an innocent man and they changed their stories as to what they were doing that night. The accounts of discovering the crime scene were inconsistent and unbelievable.

In other words the courts that convicted them thought they had a wealth of evdience and therefore motive is an afterthought.

Of course, if there is no evidence or only bad evidence and the conviction is based on soft circumstantial evidence such as behavior then reason or motive become more necessary.



Just for laughs why not give us the cases you've "seen" where they were convicted on motive alone?



Circumstantial evidence is usually physical evidence. Please specify what non physical evidence was used in combination with motive to convict someone in the recent past, say since fingerprints or maybe even DNA.

This line is backward anyway because the issue is whether a motive needs to be known. It doesn't. As mentioned before I was on the jury panel of a guy that killed someone he didn't know coming out of a club where he had been having a bachelor party. Maybe the guy looked at him wrong.



The evidence is tainted If the knife and bra were good then I'd convict, but it isn't. It shouldn't matter that the kids were whack-jobs or not, there was no evidence that stands up with enough weight to convict.

Lack of motive is just an add on.



Well there are blemishes but no evidence.



They have the murder weapon with DNA of the defendant and the victim found in the defendant's flat. They have footprints in blood of both defendants and the DNA of one on the bra of the victim. One defendant accused an innocent man and they changed their stories as to what they were doing that night. The accounts of discovering the crime scene were inconsistent and unbelievable. Motive, schmotive.

Oh and why did someone link that horrible piece by the nutter girl? Anyone knows that people that use more than two type faces and cursive script are narcissistic whack-jobs.


No time to read said nutter girl article. I hope she comes here...Id love to see her new evidence that the two are guilty. I'm dying to switch sides.

Id love to apologize to the whole Italian judicial system and say that I was wrong and they were right all along. I just need a little proof. Otherwise I'm sticking with the fact that a powerful although dimwitted group of judges and lawyers and police conspire regularly to keep clearly innocent people wrongly convicted no matter how absurd, missing or corrupt the evidence presented so far has been.

If it was a case that was close and with evidence that was solid and screw a motive...I don't need that. But I need evidence plus a lot less highly suspicious activities reflated to the weak as water "evidence" they have presented so far.

The burned up computer hard drives, missing DNA data, missing interrogation tapes, lying police DNA "experts", lying prosecutors, less than forthcoming evidence discovery, a freaking 187 thousand euro cartoon. And a thousand other odd and irregular and illogical occurrences...no investigation into Lumumba just after his arrest, no reference samples taken except from 3 or 4 suspects...etc.

Come on nutter girl. I challenge you to make a fool out of my arguments against your contentions whatever they may be. I say you are guessing about your conclusions. I bet they do not fit the facts of the case. I bet they are as silly as Toto story. As clear as Naras hearing and time keeping ability, as plausible as Kokomaniac fighting off Knox with olives.

Come on...nutter girl. I did read your first page or so of disclaimers...yawn. You bored me before you got started. What kind of grade did you get? Not better than a C minus would be my guess. Thats only if it was a creative writing course....otherwise D plus at best. Sorry.
 
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I've never understood the whole glass on top of the clothes or underneath the clothes argument. People including Rudy could have moved clothes about..so I'd imagine they would find both. Also the no glass being found outside was never very convincing. Now if most of the glass was found outside, then that would have told me that the window was broken from the inside. But if all the glass is on the inside, then it tells me the window was broken from outside.

The idea that this was "staged" was pulled out of their back sides because not many valuables were missing. Which I don't think is all that curious considering it went from being simple break in to a murder.

The argument that the break in was staged really is nothing more than hunch that police and the prosecution promoted. But there is nothing that really proves it. And given the guy with the history behind him in committing break ins was involved, you would think that they would just dismiss that.

But instead, they are declaring that the unlikely hunch is more probable than the physics and the pattern of break ins.

In the Hayden Panettiere film Mignini says as I recall "hmmm glass on top of clothes", and this is oft repeated by the pgp Harryrag being a key proponent. This staged break in is what really gets to me, as there are multiple independent proofs it was impossible to stage, yet three web sites and several courts and judges are getting away with it because it is essential to there nasty little cause. I am staggered that the American people have not got this obvious lie front and centre of the media.

It would be ripped to shreds in this little farming country.
 
In the Hayden Panettiere film Mignini says as I recall "hmmm glass on top of clothes", and this is oft repeated by the pgp Harryrag being a key proponent. This staged break in is what really gets to me, as there are multiple independent proofs it was impossible to stage, yet three web sites and several courts and judges are getting away with it because it is essential to there nasty little cause. I am staggered that the American people have not got this obvious lie front and centre of the media.

It would be ripped to shreds in this little farming country.

I agree with you entirely. I can't 100 percent prove that it wasn't staged, but you certainly can't prove that it was. If they had been extra careful, thinking totally through, I'm sure it is possible. But then again the evidence would be equivocal and mean that it wasn't conclusive. As I said before, it certainly isn't proof of anything. The fact that Rudy is the main if not the only perpetrator, it doesn't suggest staging, it suggests a break in. A real break in. And even without the evidence being so strong against Rudy, it doesn't really prove that it was a break in.

I know this is going to sound strange. But in a strange way, it is great that Rudy was caught and convicted. Imagine if they hadn't identified anyone else? Would they be pursuing Amanda, Raffaele and some unknown burglar?... Makes you wonder.
 
Let's say for example that the DNA on the knife wasn't a bad match. That it is a clear match on the knife and Conti and Vechiotti confirmed that DNA? I would still vote against convicting Amanda. It's not enough and there are potential other reasons for the match. Contamination is still always possible. Had it been blood..that would be harder for me.

I'm not really considering the "mixed DNA" not "mixed blood" in the shared bathroom.

DNA on the knife could be explained by Amanda wearing one of Meredeth's shirts, sure. Blood, especially a considerable sample imbedded in the handle along with unexplained cut marks and bruise on Amanda might make the issue different.

Problem again is would it matter if it was a roommate she got along well with or if it was an ex-boyfriend stalking her. The evidence of blood on a knife would still be strong evidence.

It is, but if that person was out on their boat frequently, you might think less of it. Scott was not really known as an avid boater or fisherman.

How long the body too to discover indicates that the body had to be under water. Even if the friend was a constant boater, what is the other conclusion other than her roommate murdered her.

There is a big reason DF, that the spouse is the very first person homicide detectives consider as suspects.

I agree but that is used to know who to narrow down on and then one must find some actual evidence.
 
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I think as always we are dancing around each other on this point. I agree that if there is compelling evidence, the requirement for motive falls by the wayside.


I disagree with you about Scott Petersen. He starts out being a suspect in his wife's disappearance just being the husband. Killing one's spouse is very common. But there was no real physical evidence tying Scott to the crime. Mostly Scott was convicted because he had a motive and his wife washed up ashore close to where he was fishing.
And so what that he told his new girlfriend that he was in Paris while he was at a candle light vigil for Laci? I can see why a man would lie to a girl about something like that. The guy must have been a practiced liar. He was having extramarital affairs. But that doesn't make someone a murderer.

The evidence against Scott Peterson is very circumstantial, nothing really but one huge coincidence and a bunch of lies.

No, I disagree with this. He had a motive and it was an important part of the case against him, but it was only one plank and pales by comparison with the otherwise inexplicable coincidences in the case: his secret purchase of the boat after Amber found out he had been married, Laci's disappearance on the same day as his secret boat trip and her body washing up in the same part of SF bay where he had gone 'fishing'. You could take Amber out altogether and still convict but you can't do without the body turning up where it did.

You need a better example. If all you are saying is that motive is sometimes important then you are right and Grinder is wrong (if in disagreement). The absence of a credible motive in our case is a point of great significance to everybody except Grinder.
 
To show how a case like this changes one's perceptions of the world, I post this link following. Normally I would have taken little notice, despite realising that real lives are taken and collateral misery will obviously ensue.
However, when I now consider the ridiculous statement, the lone wolf scenario has been laid to rest by multiple courts (or something like that), I have to compare and contrast

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11257651

Two women who have been found dead at a home in the Auckland suburb of Ranui are thought to be mother and daughter.

Detective Inspector Greg Cramer said it appeared the pair had been stabbed this morning but a post-mortem examination would be held in the next few days.

A male occupant from the house was helping with inquiries and police were not seeking anyone else over the deaths.


I will bet both arms no one here will be saying how could one man stab to death two women without help. Only the Italian race and a subset of lunatic transatlantics could dream that up. Mathematically his work output was 6 times our trio.
 
Broken Glass and staged Break-in (s), per Nencini via Cheli

I agree with you entirely. I can't 100 percent prove that it wasn't staged, but you certainly can't prove that it was. If they had been extra careful, thinking totally through, I'm sure it is possible. But then again the evidence would be equivocal and mean that it wasn't conclusive. As I said before, it certainly isn't proof of anything. The fact that Rudy is the main if not the only perpetrator, it doesn't suggest staging, it suggests a break in. A real break in. And even without the evidence being so strong against Rudy, it doesn't really prove that it was a break in.

I know this is going to sound strange. But in a strange way, it is great that Rudy was caught and convicted. Imagine if they hadn't identified anyone else? Would they be pursuing Amanda, Raffaele and some unknown burglar?... Makes you wonder.

From Luca Cheli's Analysis of the Nencini motivation - discussing the 'faked break-in' and here specifically, broken glass...
"The other element compelling Nencini to rule the break-in as staged is the notorious presence of pieces of glass above the clothes on the floor of Romanelli’s room.
This is a point I want to expand a little bit.
First of all, according to Battistelli’s and Romanelli’s testimonies in front of the Massei court, the glasses on top of the clothes were “small” and “few” and moreover they were both on top and under the clothes and what should be the explanation of those under the clothes in a scenario involving simulation?
But that is not all. Let us look at page 47 of the PMF translation of the Massei ruling (page 34 of the original Italian), where the (then) alleged previous burglaries by Rudi Guede are discussed: “Objects were taken from the [Brocchi and Palazzoli] law office, glass was found on clothes” (“sopra gli indumenti”, which literally means “on top of clothes”). It is incredible to read this in Massei and to think that we are here, four years after the publication of that report, still discussing “glass on top of clothes” as a fundamental proof of a staged break-in. It is even more incredible that this has been neglected by cohorts of judges, including the “supreme” ones (in Italy judges belonging to the Court of Cassation are often referred to as “supreme judges”). Who staged that one, honorable judges? Yes, because if glass on top of clothes means faked burglary, then that one had to be faked too, otherwise we should, honorable judges, think that glass on top of clothes proves nothing and that we (and you) have spent years debating red herrings.Or, conceding to Nencini’s high opinion of Guede as a professional burglar, that he was so smart to think that purposely spreading a few broken glass pieces on top of clothes was an excellent way to sidetrack investigators, who would have immediately thought to a faked burglary.
A footnote: on page 80 the ruling reads “if to these considerations one adds the circumstance, deemed as acquired by this Court, that the aggression to Meredith Kercher was the work of multiple individuals (…) the defenses’ hypothesis of Rudi Hermann Guede who, as a lone killer, breaks in through the window, is caught by Meredith and kills her, is shown to be completely without foundation.”
Well, yes, if it is “acquired” that there were multiple attackers, a single attacker theory is without foundation. Of course."
 
From Luca Cheli's Analysis of the Nencini motivation - discussing the 'faked break-in' and here specifically, broken glass...
"The other element compelling Nencini to rule the break-in as staged is the notorious presence of pieces of glass above the clothes on the floor of Romanelli’s room.
This is a point I want to expand a little bit.
First of all, according to Battistelli’s and Romanelli’s testimonies in front of the Massei court, the glasses on top of the clothes were “small” and “few” and moreover they were both on top and under the clothes and what should be the explanation of those under the clothes in a scenario involving simulation?
But that is not all. Let us look at page 47 of the PMF translation of the Massei ruling (page 34 of the original Italian), where the (then) alleged previous burglaries by Rudi Guede are discussed: “Objects were taken from the [Brocchi and Palazzoli] law office, glass was found on clothes” (“sopra gli indumenti”, which literally means “on top of clothes”). It is incredible to read this in Massei and to think that we are here, four years after the publication of that report, still discussing “glass on top of clothes” as a fundamental proof of a staged break-in. It is even more incredible that this has been neglected by cohorts of judges, including the “supreme” ones (in Italy judges belonging to the Court of Cassation are often referred to as “supreme judges”). Who staged that one, honorable judges? Yes, because if glass on top of clothes means faked burglary, then that one had to be faked too, otherwise we should, honorable judges, think that glass on top of clothes proves nothing and that we (and you) have spent years debating red herrings.Or, conceding to Nencini’s high opinion of Guede as a professional burglar, that he was so smart to think that purposely spreading a few broken glass pieces on top of clothes was an excellent way to sidetrack investigators, who would have immediately thought to a faked burglary.
A footnote: on page 80 the ruling reads “if to these considerations one adds the circumstance, deemed as acquired by this Court, that the aggression to Meredith Kercher was the work of multiple individuals (…) the defenses’ hypothesis of Rudi Hermann Guede who, as a lone killer, breaks in through the window, is caught by Meredith and kills her, is shown to be completely without foundation.”
Well, yes, if it is “acquired” that there were multiple attackers, a single attacker theory is without foundation. Of course."

Acquired is an interesting word.

Let's explore

1. To gain possession of: acquire 100 shares of stock.

2. To get by one's own efforts: acquire proficiency in math.

3. To gain through experience; come by: acquired a growing dislike of television sitcoms.

4. To locate (a moving object) with a tracking system, such as radar
 
From Luca Cheli's Analysis of the Nencini motivation - discussing the 'faked break-in' and here specifically, broken glass...
"The other element compelling Nencini to rule the break-in as staged is the notorious presence of pieces of glass above the clothes on the floor of Romanelli’s room.
This is a point I want to expand a little bit.
First of all, according to Battistelli’s and Romanelli’s testimonies in front of the Massei court, the glasses on top of the clothes were “small” and “few” and moreover they were both on top and under the clothes and what should be the explanation of those under the clothes in a scenario involving simulation?
But that is not all. Let us look at page 47 of the PMF translation of the Massei ruling (page 34 of the original Italian), where the (then) alleged previous burglaries by Rudi Guede are discussed: “Objects were taken from the [Brocchi and Palazzoli] law office, glass was found on clothes” (“sopra gli indumenti”, which literally means “on top of clothes”). It is incredible to read this in Massei and to think that we are here, four years after the publication of that report, still discussing “glass on top of clothes” as a fundamental proof of a staged break-in. It is even more incredible that this has been neglected by cohorts of judges, including the “supreme” ones (in Italy judges belonging to the Court of Cassation are often referred to as “supreme judges”). Who staged that one, honorable judges? Yes, because if glass on top of clothes means faked burglary, then that one had to be faked too, otherwise we should, honorable judges, think that glass on top of clothes proves nothing and that we (and you) have spent years debating red herrings.Or, conceding to Nencini’s high opinion of Guede as a professional burglar, that he was so smart to think that purposely spreading a few broken glass pieces on top of clothes was an excellent way to sidetrack investigators, who would have immediately thought to a faked burglary.
A footnote: on page 80 the ruling reads “if to these considerations one adds the circumstance, deemed as acquired by this Court, that the aggression to Meredith Kercher was the work of multiple individuals (…) the defenses’ hypothesis of Rudi Hermann Guede who, as a lone killer, breaks in through the window, is caught by Meredith and kills her, is shown to be completely without foundation.”
Well, yes, if it is “acquired” that there were multiple attackers, a single attacker theory is without foundation. Of course."

For my money, the origin of the "staged burglary" is a little biut different that what has cause the allegation to endure. It has endured because of this silly "glass on top of the clothes" argument.

But it began with Postal Police Battistelli, who, pre-murder discovery, when he looked into Filomena's room said, "This is no burglary."

He was correct. It was a break in, but the sense of "falseness" had set in. Even Filomena said, "This was a stupid burglar."

And of course, what started as a burglary did not end as one. Instead of it being Guede who stole Filomena's laptop, Filomena herself was to take it from behind crimescene tape. And in the meantime, as true-crime author John Follain said, Filomena was allowed by police to "rummage through her room" for an unspecified passage of time.

How anything can be determined from the condition of that room is beyond me, save for the fact that a climb in through the window is completely possible and demonstrably so. Everything after that is Occam's Razor.
 
Not really Grinder. I can't find a single similar crime in the annals of criminal history to the three virtual strangers of Amanda/Raffaele/Rudy committing a murder. There really is a motive or a reason for pretty much every murder..maybe there is an exception that proves the rule. I agree that group dynamics and acceding to authority can cause people to commit crimes. Or certain individuals can bond together to commit crimes that seem to have no answer. But those always seem to be people that have long relationship with each other.

You said you had experienced many cases that were decided on motive. You can't give an example. There is a term for murderers with no motive. They are called "stone killers" and there are books written about them.

Stone killers frighten us. They epitomize the central reason why people are so fearful of crime, that is, the threat of random violence at the hands of strangers, who act for no apparent reason other than for kicks.

The point from my perspective on this discussion is that unless there was some pretty convincing evidence that these people without motive committed the crime you wouldn't consider them as suspects. The police and the prosecution has to start from somewhere. Marginal evidence against suspects without motive is almost always and probably should leave a jury with reasonable doubt.

"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"

The police look for connections and motive but they don't have to figure the motive from the beginning. Motives don't always come on clearly and sometimes the motive turns out to be some minor slight.

If you took the same evidence that they have on Amanda and made her an ex boyfriend who had been stalking Meredith, would you think he was guilty? The relationship with the victim matters.

If I believed the knife, the bathmat print and the bra clasp I would most likely vote to convict. If I believed Curatolo and they had lied about staying in I'd definitely convict.

In your scenario was the ex seen watching the cottage and did he raise the alert the next day? If so, guilty for sure.

I'd say those are marginal pieces of evidence Grinder. If Scott Peterson was a female roommate of 42 days with Laci as opposed to the disillusioned male husband having extramarital affairs, I doubt I would vote for her conviction.

Had he not used a winter trip to the bay where her body was found as his alibi he might have been found not guilty. He was shown to be a serial liar and had told Frei that this would be his first Christmas without his wife. They found concrete anchor material and an anchor in the boat.

Are you supporting Scott Peterson?
 
Actually this is something they are not suppose to have. In fact this is the main appeal item IMHO. Lumumbas arrest is a suspicious mess and it provides a clear picture of how truly %&*$ed up the legal system in Italy actually is.

The ISC ruled the statements purported to have come from the mouth of AK on Nov 5th/6th 2007 during her illegal interrogation to be inadmissible for her trial.

So this conclusion you make is as wrong as the other courts that have ignored the ISC original ruling. This is not something that is or at least should not be in the case files.

And forgot the civil matter tried concurrently and brought by Lumumba. This remains under appeal at the ECOHR. The result of their review will no doubt color the rest of the appeals that are certainly sure to follow this case no matter how the Italians decide to make up whatever they want to.

Also the "bloody footprints" were tested for blood and found to contain no blood. I find that another "little" problem the Italians face on appeal. Im thinking it nust have been turnip juice certainly! :-)

My first post here had to do with the police and their knowing the truth before she told them about Patrick. I think it is a major key to the case.

You know that I totally believe that the ILE did NOT make the case for murder beyond a reasonable doubt but was trying to explain that lack of motive wouldn't override the evidence if it were solid which it isn't.

I too think that trying the two cases together is totally bogus.
 
You said you had experienced many cases that were decided on motive. You can't give an example. There is a term for murderers with no motive. They are called "stone killers" and there are books written about them.

Stone killers frighten us. They epitomize the central reason why people are so fearful of crime, that is, the threat of random violence at the hands of strangers, who act for no apparent reason other than for kicks.



"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!"
Grinder, We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do think it is possible for maybe one person to devolve into this person you describe...but I don't buy two and in this case three "stone cold killers" can bond enough to trust each other to commit this kind of crime.


The police look for connections and motive but they don't have to figure the motive from the beginning. Motives don't always come on clearly and sometimes the motive turns out to be some minor slight.
This may be true, but they are the major exception and not the rule. They also don't involve two other people


Had he not used a winter trip to the bay where her body was found as his alibi he might have been found not guilty. He was shown to be a serial liar and had told Frei that this would be his first Christmas without his wife. They found concrete anchor material and an anchor in the boat.

Are you supporting Scott Peterson?

God no. I think his motive combined with the coincidences to be enough. And frankly, I don't think lying makes one a killer. I have a friend who you can't believe a single word he says. I know he's having an affair, I know he's lying about so many things...but he's not a killer.
 
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Grinder, We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do think it is possible for maybe one person to devolve into this person you describe...but I don't buy two and in this case three "stone cold killers" can bond enough to trust each other to commit this kind of crime.

Well fine but please give a list of people convicted almost solely on motive. It seems that certain people treat motive as a needed element for the crime of murder, it's not. The two girls that killed their friend didn't have a motive except they didn't like her anymore.

For those unfamiliar with the story, Skylar Neese was lured out of her room on the night of July 6, 2012 by her 2 best friends. They drove her to this rural area called Eddy Run Road into Pennsylvania about 30 minutes away from their Morgantown, West Virginia homes. Once at their planned grave site for their best friend, upon the count of 3, they stabbed Skylar to death, tossed her body on the side of the road, & when they failed to be able to dig her grave & bury her, just covered her body with branches & left her here.​


This may be true, but they are the major exception and not the rule. They also don't involve two other people

yes only one other and they knew each other but no motive.


God no. I think his motive combined with the coincidences to be enough. And frankly, I don't think lying makes one a killer. I have a friend who you can't believe a single word he says. I know he's having an affair, I know he's lying about so many things...but he's not a killer.

Coincidences? His alibi was that he went to the bay where she washed ashore 4 months later. He admitted to making concrete anchors. He told his girlfriend that this would be his first Christmas without Laci.

Was your friend's wife murdered? That would be sort of key for him to be a killer.

The way certain people point to lack of motive as a proactive defense is just foolish. This isn't like the defense pointing out that their client couldn't have pulled the trigger because she has no fingers.

Now the fact that the prosecution can't put the three together before or after the crime either in person or electronically is a defense. Now that we are told that Rudi had a phone it sure would be interesting to see the log.

The murder case I was on the jury panel for could never have pointed out that the killer had no motive (which he didn't) and expected to get him off.

People here seem to have a problem separating issues. I would never convict because the evidence was poor to pure BS. The "witnesses" were not credible and didn't actually see anything relevant except to undermine the kids' alibis. They have no case.

If one wants to add to that, there was no reason or motive, fine. But there plenty of cases where the motive isn't at all clear.
 
Every once in a while, some fact about this case becomes clear. One thing which is clear as a result of the Nencini motivations report, is the importance of sealing in the "multiple attacker theory" as a judicial fact.

As Luca Cheli notes in his commentary on the Italian-language, original version of the Nencini report, Nencini simply concedes that the multiple attacker theory is a "judicial fact", found so at Rudy Guede's fast track trial, a trial-process at which neither Sollecito nor Knox had representation.

The reason this needs "sealing in" as a judicial fact, is that letting the evidence be evaluated by independent experts is dangerous, as even the Massei trial showed. At that trial, six of the seven experts who gave testimony on the subject said there was no particular reason to favour a multiple attacker theory over a single attacker - namely, Rudy Guede.

Even Massei in his 2010 motivations report concedes what the experts say, coming to his own wrongful ruling in favour of multiple attackers by, as he says, looking at the "overall evidence", in short he lets the conclusion determine his opinions about a piece of evidence. But be alert - Massei does not rule that multiple attackers is a fact on the grounds that the evidence surrounding that determination says so. The evidence surrounding it is inconclusive.

Added to this is Hellmann's 2011 motivations report, which neither confirms nor denies multiple attackers. All Hellmann ruled was that his court was charged with ruling on whether or not AK and/or RS had been involved, which his court ruled they were not.

Hellmann's problem, then, was being indifferent, really, to the multiple attacker theory.

But is is so important for Nencini's report, that he has to lead with it, and even Nencini's concedes he does so because some other court has told him he has to - the ISC which has signed off on the Borsini-report, which now enshrines in Italian law that Rudy did not act alone.

JREF poster Stilicho comes out of hibernation upon the Nencini report release to proclaim, "at least multiple attackers is now established as factual."

More nuanced observers, Luca Cheli included, go Stilicho one better - Nencini has simply ruled that this has long since been established as a "procedural fact". Stilicho is wrong - Nencini did not rule it on any merits found at the Florence trial in 2013, Nencini said it had been established years earlier with the Borsini "finding". It was done so as a result of Rudy's process - not at any process involving Amanda and Raffaele.

At trials involving them, this is a fair summary of how they have proceeded:

- Massei hears 6 of 7 experts say single attacker is entirely possible
- Massei rules on multiple attackers because of his own "global" view of the evidence, not because of any evidence which by itself necessitates such. (In short the evidence of multiple attackers is not found in looking at the evidence!!!!)
- Hellmann says that it is immaterial if multiple attackers happened, his court is only to rule if Amanda and Raffaele were involved, which they were not
- The ISC quashes Hellmann's acquittals partially on Hellmann's agnosticism about multiple attackers!
- Nencini says multiple attackers is a judicial fact, and since AK and RS are the only ones ever to have been suspected of being those additional people, it must be them.​

At no point in any of the processes involving Amanda and Raffaele is ANY evidence submitted which points to them as these mythical extra attackers. At best, 7 experts say that injuries on the victim do not rule out multiple attackers, while six of those same experts also say that the same "facts" do not rule out a single attacker.

Finally, going back to the fast-track, trial-phase-missing Guede process, by definition no evidence in that process was entered either; the conclusion of multiple attackers comes mainly from mutual prosecution/defence stipulations; which obviously the defence (ie. Rudy's defence) will claim to mitigate his involvement.

Therefore the importance of sealing this in as a "procedural fact", to then to make it incumbent upon AK and RS's defence teams to prove the multiple attacker theory false.

Repeat that. In Italy, the defence teams for AK and RS have now to prove the multiple attacker theory false. That's what one needs to do to combat a "procedural fact", even one arrived at by a trial one was not involved in, and at that same trial where it became fact with no evidence presented.

If this is not "sealed in", then the prosecution would actually need to prove it. Which they have never done.

As always in this case, the very burden of proof is reversed, with the various prosecutions and their various theories being entered without supporting evidence.
 
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