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Bart Ehrman on the Historical Jesus

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Quite accurate, actually there Maximara.

Hebrew was still used, but the Herodian square script was mostly used for writings of the Law, but yes; day-to-day writings were commonly in some mixed breed of languages within the region.

That doesn't prove anything either direction, but it doesn't help clear anything up either.

Which, btw, makes the debate over Mark being Hebrew problematic, as it could be argued that the text was in Koine Greek upon its origin, but formatted using Hebrew grammar rather than Greek grammar on purpose for specifically these reasons.
 
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Alright folks; FYI, I'll be out for a couple days due to oral surgery so I'll try to play catch-up around Tuesday if I'm really lucky, otherwise Wednesday.
 
maximara said:
We are then told of the Septuagint (3rd century BCE) and Rabbi David Wolpe, lecturer at the University of Judaism explains why this was so important historically

So if Jews especially in the large cities didn't even know Hebrew why in the name of sanity would anyone with a brain in their head write a Gospel in Hebrew for them? That would be like in 2012 writing a major work in Latin for Roman Catholics and about as nonsensical.

First of all Jews were still speaking and writing the Hebrew language up to the end of the first century so it is certainly not like people writing latin in 2012 when no-one speaks or writes in latin.

Also, you will still not be able to explain why no Greek, Latin or Syric manuscripts of the Jesus story were found in Judea when you assume no-one wrote in the Hebrew language.

You also fail to remember that the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in Judea written in Hebrew languages including Aramaic.

You also forget that Josephus wrote in the Hebrew language up to the end of the 1st century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The texts are written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and Nabataean[, mostly on parchment but with some written on papyrus and bronze.[4] The manuscripts have been dated to various ranges between 408 BCE and 318 CE.[5]

Up to the end of the 1st century Jews were STILL writing in Hebrew language based on Josephus in the Preface of Wars of the Jews.

Preface of Wars of the Jews
I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country

Josephus in "Antiquities of the Jews" will also state that he was not accustomed to the Greek language, had difficulties translating the Hebrew language to Greek, and that the Jews did NOT encourage the learning of other languages.

The Preface to Antiquities of the Jews
..... because this work would take up a great compass, I separated it into a set treatise by itself, with a beginning of its own, and its own conclusion; but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language.

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 20
I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations..

The evidence suggests that Jews of Judea were accustomed to write in the Hebrew language at least up to the end of the1st century.
 
There's always room for a few more epicycles! [ . . .]
Of course.
Always.
I didn't go there because I simply didn't want to generate more "Book-burner!" or "Creationist!" accusations.



That is not entirely surprising considering that the DSS' survival is an outstanding surprise and much appreciated stroke of luck.

We have hardly anything from 1st c CE Judea; most anything about the era is from outside sources or later commentary (such as Josephus et. al.).

For example, we have no official Judean record for who the High Priests were during this period, nor which political parties were doing what for what purpose.

We also lack any substantial body of legal documents from proceedings for this era. [ . . . ].
Thanks as always for such a thoughtful reply.
I snipped it because I wanted to centre on the Judean records and their absence- apparently they were deliberately burned by the Zealots as part of the warm-up act for the events of 69-70.
And yes, it's thanks to Brainache I started being interested in this extraordinarily unpleasant facet of 1st Century history.

All the best with the oral surgery!



pakeha
Try catechetical school alexandria; or didascalia alexandria.

Thanks! After what promises to be a fraught day with two working sessions, I'll be glad to paddle about in Alexandrian waters.



[ . . . ]

The Jesus stories have been found in Greek, Latin, Syriac but not a single one in Hebrew.

There is simple no evidence to support any argument that the Jesus story was of Hebrew origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_Latin_manuscripts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Syriac_New_Testament_manuscripts

The Jesus story was NEVER part of Jewish culture based on the abundance of evidence.

The Jesus story is of Non-Jewish origin.


[ . . . ]

Looking for the "historical" Gospel Jesus is as meaningless as looking for the "historical" Robin Hood former Earl of Locksley or "historical" King Arthur Pendragon bastard son of Uther Pendragon and Lady Igraine--those versions are non-historical in that they never existed even if they are based on people who actually lived.

With "historical" candidates for Robin Hood and King Arthur Pendragon a full two centuries outside their traditional times what is so off the wall about a candidate for Jesus being outside the time period the Gospels are set in?

That's a very, very good question.
And especially interesting in the light of the confusion of the earliest church writers on the subject when Jesus lived, except for the Passion under Pontius Pilate.
Almost like a mnemonic devise, Pilate is.



Quite accurate, actually there Maximara.

Hebrew was still used, but the Herodian square script was mostly used for writings of the Law, but yes; day-to-day writings were commonly in some mixed breed of languages within the region.

That doesn't prove anything either direction, but it doesn't help clear anything up either.

Which, btw, makes the debate over Mark being Hebrew problematic, as it could be argued that the text was in Koine Greek upon its origin, but formatted using Hebrew grammar rather than Greek grammar on purpose for specifically these reasons.
First of all Jews were still speaking and writing the Hebrew language up to the end of the first century so it is certainly not like people writing latin in 2012 when no-one speaks or writes in latin.

Also, you will still not be able to explain why no Greek, Latin or Syric manuscripts of the Jesus story were found in Judea when you assume no-one wrote in the Hebrew language.

You also fail to remember that the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in Judea written in Hebrew languages including Aramaic.

You also forget that Josephus wrote in the Hebrew language up to the end of the 1st century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls



Up to the end of the 1st century Jews were STILL writing in Hebrew language based on Josephus in the Preface of Wars of the Jews.

Preface of Wars of the Jews

Josephus in "Antiquities of the Jews" will also state that he was not accustomed to the Greek language, had difficulties translating the Hebrew language to Greek, and that the Jews did NOT encourage the learning of other languages.

The Preface to Antiquities of the Jews

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 20

The evidence suggests that Jews of Judea were accustomed to write in the Hebrew language at least up to the end of the1st century.

Thanks dejudge and JaysonR, for reminding us how easy it is to depart from the evidence and enter into speculation, even for dedicated scholars.

Thinking about all this will make getting through the day much, much easier!
 
You also forget that Josephus wrote in the Hebrew language up to the end of the 1st century.
Can you give examples of this, at least as regards his published works, to which I assume you refer? Please note that first century chroniclers often wrote "Hebrew" when in fact they were referring to the Aramaic language.
Martin McNamara writes: "All of Josephus' four extant works are important sources for Jewish history and tradition. The first to be composed was The Jewish War—an account of the war of the Jews against the Romans. Josephus himself tells us that he wrote two versions of this. The first one was in his own vernacular, i.e. Aramaic, and composed for 'the up-country barbarians', i.e. the Aramaic-speaking Jews of the Parthian kingdom, especially those of Babylon. This edition is lost. The extant Greek version is an adaptation by Josephus himself of the Aramaic work. It was published about A.D. 78, when Josephus was about 40 years old.
(My bold.) http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
 
Some argue yes, others argue no.
The debate over this centers around what Alexandria was, and how we have textual fragments which survived Alexandria that also have fragments or citations outside of the Library of Alexandria.

Because we know this happened, and considering the proposition of Alexandrian origin being presented, we cannot draw a conclusion to Egyptian authorship or origin inherently; though we can postulate.

Also: something else to keep in mind - several non-Egyptians were librarians, teachers, and writers in the great Library, which only adds to the complexity of drawing a conclusion of Egyptian authorship.


Some argue yes; others argue no.
However, specifically, tracking any oral tradition is nearly impossible.
Usually we can only know that a culture relied more on oral tradition than textual at some layer of their society rather than specifically what those oral traditions were. Sometimes we are lucky and some oral traditions pass through history well enough preserved to talk to descendants who still pass on the oral tradition, or someone notes somewhere what they have heard a people orate to each other.

These are few by comparison to the volume of information that is oral tradition of human civilization, however, so this is always a problem.

What we do know is that oral tradition was the standard method of dispersion for the Judean region outside of the Law and priest cast related demographics with the fervor and training to write so profoundly.


The post you cited of mine was not an argument for an historical Jesus.
It was a post which only rose some address to concerns regarding a proposition that Egyptians wrote the texts in question as a hoax due to the texts notably being found in Egypt in their earliest fragments.

Raising address unto the full conclusion of a proposition such as this does not inherently follow with "so therefore an historical Jesus was true".
No, instead, it only suggests that the above conclusion reaches too far for the explanations given and the information known to us.

It is one thing to reject the proposition of an Historical Jesus; it is entirely another to assign an origin, authorship, and cultural ownership.


Again, I am not arguing for an Historical Jesus, but you seem to be questioning why we have such a find as the DSS texts while none regarding the gospel texts.

The DSS were not so easily preserved, and it is recognized quite openly in most commentaries upon them that we are so very lucky to have them preserved from this period in history for we have so very little left from 1st c CE Judea due to the Roman's nearly complete annihilation of everything in Judea.
They destroyed the entire temple library, the entire treasury with the coin still in the treasury, entire cities; everything.

The DSS were stashed away in the caves and as such were luckily able to survive destruction and offer, then, a secondary source to many documents found in Cairo (such as the Damascus Document, but there are many other such duplicates between the two locations; of course, there are many more unique to the DSS find itself).

So that the DSS survived in no way should influence our expectation of any group's texts.
We should not expect to find Sadducee party texts, nor any by even the High Priests, nor any legal documents by the Judges.

That we found the DSS is amazing and precisely one of the motivating reasons for such passionate interest in their preservation by the historical community.

A reminder: this in no way argues for an Historical Jesus.



Well all the above seems to be a very wordy, and often obscurantist, expansion of your own repeated phrase "Some argue yes, others argue no".

Is there anything in this world you can think of where some people "argue no", regardless of whatever the evidence is?

Lot's of religious people "argue no" to evolution. And for those who have finally been forced to accept that Man evolved from earlier non-human animals, they invariably "argue no" to the Big Bang occurring for entirely natural reasons of physics ... a disembodied intelligence had to be responsible instead.

But they can cite no evidence to "argue no" for such beliefs, right? Well, actually no! Not at all. They can cite mountains of what they claims to be evidence against evolution and against a natural process of the Big Bang. Science may be unimpressed by their claimed "evidence", but they will just reply that many scientists do agree with them (who these "scientists" actually are is another matter), and that if scientists do disagree with them then it's just one opinion against another, sort of, just a matter of anyone’s opinion.

Afaik, it is a fact that these NT remnants have been found in Egypt, and not in Judea. If that is the fact, then in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary there appears to be no reason to think they were written elsewhere. Afaik - there is actually no evidence that the Jesus story was originally written or told in Judea ... is there?

As far as Eight-bits comment about finding books in Cambridge but not automatically concluding they must have been written there -we all know perfectly well that in modern times books can be written and printed in any country, and put on sale in a different country. There are numerous well known and very obvious reasons for that. But that is no sort of valid analogy to finding 4th century copies of gospels only in Egypt and not ever where they were supposed to have originated in Judea.

There may once have been copies in Judea. And perhaps they did not survive. That’s obviously possible. All sorts of scenarios are “possible”. But a rational argument has to rest on the known “facts”. And IF the known fact here is that all these NT remnants have been found in Egypt, and that none have been found in Judea, then in the absence of any other information (such as a known and proven practice of habitually transporting all such written material from Judea to Egypt), then on the face of things the most likely conclusion is that what has been found in Egypt probably originated in Egypt and not in Judea.
 
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@dejudge

I see you refer to "Hebrew languages including Aramaic", and would like you to elucidate. These are two different languages, and if we are to discuss these languages in terms of dead languages, or otherwise, we must distinguish them carefully. Hebrew had certainly ceased to be used as a daily spoken language at an early date, but Aramaic is still a living language. Moreover, Biblical scholars clearly distinguish Hebrew from Aramaic in the text of the Jewish scriptures. See wiki
Biblical Aramaic is the Aramaic found in four discrete sections of the Hebrew Bible:

Ezra 4:8–6:18 and 7:12–26 – documents from the Achaemenid period (5th century BC) concerning the restoration of the temple in Jerusalem.
Daniel 2:4b–7:28 – five subversive tales and an apocalyptic vision.
Jeremiah 10:11 – a single sentence in the middle of a Hebrew text denouncing idolatry.
Genesis 31:47 – translation of a Hebrew place-name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language
The rest is in Hebrew, which is different.
 
Thanks as always for such a thoughtful reply.
I snipped it because I wanted to centre on the Judean records and their absence- apparently they were deliberately burned by the Zealots as part of the warm-up act for the events of 69-70.
And yes, it's thanks to Brainache I started being interested in this extraordinarily unpleasant facet of 1st Century history.
Always a pleasure.

Yes, they are credited with quite a bit of destruction themselves.
It's a really confusing instance with quite a lot of attribution circling around who allegedly did what.

What we can definitely rely on is the archeological remains which tells us for certain that there were devastating impacts to the physical infrastructure of the primary social engines of the Judean civilization.

Thanks dejudge and JaysonR, for reminding us how easy it is to depart from the evidence and enter into speculation, even for dedicated scholars.
Actually; it's easier for academics to at least be perceived as immersed in speculation.
The very nature of the ancient history profession involves a large amount of speculation to begin with, and then you add inquiries which are very poorly presented in their raw form, and then add on to this several hundred years of inquiry and postulations so much so that physics like "laws" have been formed in the field as accepted axioms to historical "formulas" (logic and hypothesis), and then finally, we throw in the pandora's box that is itself the subject of Jesus and it's any wonder that anyone remarking on the subject professionally seems saturated with speculation.

All the best with the oral surgery!
Thanks!
 
Well all the above seems to be a very wordy, and often obscurantist, expansion of your own repeated phrase "Some argue yes, others argue no".

Is there anything in this world you can think of where some people "argue no", regardless of whatever the evidence is?

Lot's of religious people "argue no" to evolution. And for those who have finally been forced to accept that Man evolved from earlier non-human animals, they invariably "argue no" to the Big Bang occurring for entirely natural reasons of physics ... a disembodied intelligence had to be responsible instead.

But they can cite no evidence to "argue no" for such beliefs, right? Well, actually no! Not at all. They can cite mountains of what they claims to be evidence against evolution and against a natural process of the Big Bang. Science may be unimpressed by their claimed "evidence", but they will just reply that many scientists do agree with them (who these "scientists" actually are is another matter), and that if scientists do disagree with them then it's just one opinion against another, sort of, just a matter of anyone’s opinion.
I was summarizing an impossible condition (the nature of the question) that I myself cannot outright answer without at once admitting complete capability of error.

These are among some of the heated topics, and involve quite heavy amounts of material upon the subject.

It can be all hot air and simple to anyone of us not within the political circle of the historical field's on-going feud over the matter, but it never-the-less is the case for the field.

I find both answers arguable (of that particular question) and I also have to keep in mind that we have stacks of texts from the era which we have not yet made our way through the restoration period, let alone the editing stage.
And yet, I cannot rest upon this as a reason to side a position either.

Afaik, it is a fact that these NT remnants have been found in Egypt, and not in Judea. If that is the fact, then in the absence of clear evidence to the contrary there appears to be no reason to think they were written elsewhere. Afaik - there is actually no evidence that the Jesus story was originally written or told in Judea ... is there?

As far as Eight-bits comment about finding books in Cambridge but not automatically concluding they must have been written there -we all know perfectly well that in modern times books can be written and printed in any country, and put on sale in a different country. There are numerous well known and very obvious reasons for that. But that is no sort of valid analogy to finding 4th century copies of gospels only in Egypt and not ever where they were supposed to have originated in Judea.

There may once have been copies in Judea. And perhaps they did not survive. That’s obviously possible. All sorts of scenarios are “possible”. But a rational argument has to rest on the known “facts”. And IF the known fact here is that all these NT remnants have been found in Egypt, and that none have been found in Judea, then in the absence of any other information (such as a known and proven practice of habitually transporting all such written material from Judea to Egypt), then on the face of things the most likely conclusion is that what has been found in Egypt probably originated in Egypt and not in Judea.
I say no, but the answer incredibly well depends upon what the conversation is accepting as evidence.
There have been very interesting arguments in a variety of manners which argue for the implication of a Hebrew text; to include mentions of citations in commentators, as well as form of prose, grammar, and idiom in Mark.

I think the appropriate answer is that it is possible that some text was written in Hebrew for at least some small sectarian outcast of Hebrews who had some need to bother to write something down for themselves instead of just repeating it as normal, but I don't think we can easily argue that the four canonical texts were originally in the Hebrew language.

I don't think that, unfortunately, informs us very well as to which culture authored them.
All cultures in contact with the use of Alexandria still more-or-less stand capable of authorship, and that does not unfortunately refine the search very much.

For even Judea was, from the inception of Alexandria, a geographical strategic interest of link to Alexandria, for every side of the great city was protected save for the way through Judea, but Judeans were...well...crazy, and Alexander chose not to lose troops but to reach agreements with Judea politically.

And there is also Onias the IV (ousted High Priest-to-be) built a Hebrew holy Temple in Egypt he had envisioned as replacing Jerusalem's.

The point being that Judea shows no lack of cultural familiarity with Egypt, so we cannot so easily dismiss their hand being involved in some manner even in Alexandria.

We cannot draw a line to them very easily either, however; though the postulation can be made logically, and has been through paleography.
However, I would argue just the opposite by the use of paleography for some of the texts.

I think one of the cautions in this is to resist the enticement to treat all four texts as one unit; that what is true for one is true for all.
We should keep in mind that their unity is an invention of a much later convention, and not inherent in their origin.
 
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The major flaw here is even with more modern myths like Paul Buynan, Pacos Bill, John the Conqueror, and Captain Stormalong it is not clear how they developed.

Well if we _know_ they are myths then we probably know how they were formed. But that's a bit my point: we don't know whether Jesus is myth or not.

You seem to assume that IF there was an historic Jesus there would be no need to 'explain'.

You're going to have to explain to me how you could possibly understand that from my post.

Besides, we already have an explanation for HJ.
 
I was summarizing an impossible condition (the nature of the question) that I myself cannot outright answer without at once admitting complete capability of error.

These are among some of the heated topics, and involve quite heavy amounts of material upon the subject.

It can be all hot air and simple to anyone of us not within the political circle of the historical field's on-going feud over the matter, but it never-the-less is the case for the field.

I find both answers arguable (of that particular question) and I also have to keep in mind that we have stacks of texts from the era which we have not yet made our way through the restoration period, let alone the editing stage.
And yet, I cannot rest upon this as a reason to side a position either.


I say no, but the answer incredibly well depends upon what the conversation is accepting as evidence.
There have been very interesting arguments in a variety of manners which argue for the implication of a Hebrew text; to include mentions of citations in commentators, as well as form of prose, grammar, and idiom in Mark.

I think the appropriate answer is that it is possible that some text was written in Hebrew for at least some small sectarian outcast of Hebrews who had some need to bother to write something down for themselves instead of just repeating it as normal, but I don't think we can easily argue that the four canonical texts were originally in the Hebrew language.

I don't think that, unfortunately, informs us very well as to which culture authored them.
All cultures in contact with the use of Alexandria still more-or-less stand capable of authorship, and that does not unfortunately refine the search very much.

For even Judea was, from the inception of Alexandria, a geographical strategic interest of link to Alexandria, for every side of the great city was protected save for the way through Judea, but Judeans were...well...crazy, and Alexander chose not to lose troops but to reach agreements with Judea politically.

And there is also Onias the IV (ousted High Priest-to-be) built a Hebrew holy Temple in Egypt he had envisioned as replacing Jerusalem's.

The point being that Judea shows no lack of cultural familiarity with Egypt, so we cannot so easily dismiss their hand being involved in some manner even in Alexandria.

We cannot draw a line to them very easily either, however; though the postulation can be made logically, and has been through paleography.
However, I would argue just the opposite by the use of paleography for some of the texts.

I think one of the cautions in this is to resist the enticement to treat all four texts as one unit; that what is true for one is true for all.
We should keep in mind that their unity is an invention of a much later convention, and not inherent in their origin.



Well what you are describing sounds as if it’s getting far too close to what I just described above, where creationists argue that they have vast evidence against evolution; or that any religious group has supporting evidence of almost anything they wish to claim about their god beliefs. E.g. the claim that the evidence proving Gods design is absolutely everywhere and all around us, etc.

Unless anyone can show, by actual evidence, that the NT gospels and epistles were originally written in Judea, then the fact of that matter appears to be that the actual evidence shows they were probably written in Egypt.

It appears to be a known “fact” that the remnants of the earliest NT documents were found in Egypt. Against that - is there any similarly “known fact” of the earliest NT documents being found also in Judea? If not, then frankly any speculation that such writing may have originated in Judea, even though no such writing has been discovered, is worth far less than the apparently undisputed fact that masses of it have been found in Egypt.
 
Well, we are not so lucky.
There are several papyri which the origin of province is simply unknown.
That seems odd, but realize several are obtained from markets, or siezed from some where.
The provinces are derived from textual form, but this is not solid iron proof, nor can it ever be.
Take p98, for example, claimed to Turkey in the 2nd c CE, but we are compelled to note "?" next to such.

But for our discussion, and to avoid tedious divergences into the fun but very complicated world of paleography, let's just go with an axiom of Egypt-only textual presence.

Even in such a case, we are no closer to assignig an authorship culture based on finding a given text in Egypt.

No more so than assigning which cat out of three or five ate the fish on the counter.

We also are not granted their purpose in form by their location.
Even with the position of non-HJ, are these mythologies, literary works, scripts to theatrical plays, other options?

All that Egypt really tells us is where they were obtained (which is not always Egypt, but we are just making everything Egypt for the moment), or where they were found.

Some are assigned to Egypt by paleography and not by where they were obtained.

It is, unfortunately, even more confusing on this level than directly simple.


I would not compare the debates of these matters to creationism vs evolution.
Here, the varied debates are all usiing the same methods for their positions regarding hypothesis or assignment.

The closest relative is theoretical physics, but only in comparing the relationship of methods between various propositions and tangible evidence.
 
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Well, we are not so lucky.
There are several papyri which the origin of province is simply unknown.
That seems odd, but realize several are obtained from markets, or siezed from some where.
The provinces are derived from textual form, but this is not solid iron proof, nor can it ever be.
Take p98, for example, claimed to Turkey in the 2nd c CE, but we are compelled to note "?" next to such.

But for our discussion, and to avoid tedious divergences into the fun but very complicated world of paleography, let's just go with an axiom of Egypt-only textual presence.

Even in such a case, we are no closer to assignig an authorship culture based on finding a given text in Egypt.

No more so than assigning which cat out of three or five ate the fish on the counter.

We also are not granted their purpose in form by their location.
Even with the position of non-HJ, are these mythologies, literary works, scripts to theatrical plays, other options?

All that Egypt really tells us is where they were obtained (which is not always Egypt, but we are just making everything Egypt for the moment), or where they were found.

Some are assigned to Egypt by paleography and not by where they were obtained.

It is, unfortunately, even more confusing on this level than directly simple.


I would not compare the debates of these matters to creationism vs evolution.
Here, the varied debates are all usiing the same methods for their positions regarding hypothesis or assignment.

The closest relative is theoretical physics, but only in comparing the relationship of methods between various propositions and tangible evidence.



OK, well that appears to amount to zero evidence that any of the NT mss are known to have originated from anywhere except Egypt.

And you would know which one out of three cats probably ate the fish if one of the cats is sitting there next to the remains of the half eaten fish and the other two are living 600 miles away in another country.

And by way theoretical physics is about as far away from any of this religious stuff as human study has ever got.
 
Ian, are you aware of who was in and writing in Alexandria?

Are you aware of just how many non-Egyptian Hellens were in there?

Also, are you aware of what Coptic is in relation to this topic?

And the comparison to theoretical physics had nothing to do with the subject matter, but only served as a comparison of the field's internal history with its methods.
 
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Ian, are you aware of who was in and writing in Alexandria?

Are you aware of just how many non-Egyptian Hellens were in there?

Also, are you aware of what Coptic is in relation to this topic?



Do you know who was in Egypt writing the extant 4th-6th century and later copies that have been the source of the gospels and letters of the NT?

Who were those writers of the NT mss? Do I know? No I don't. Do you know who they were?

Why were they in Egypt?

How did they know the truth of any stories of a little known messianic preacher from 300+ years before and 600 miles away in another land?

Most directly - where is the evidence of any of the Jesus stories being told, or any of the gospels and letters being written, by anyone in Judea in the 1st century? Perhaps there is lots of good evidence for that. But if so, then I'd like to know what that good evidence is. That's all I am asking.
 
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Ian, stop talking to me like I'm proposing HJ.

The only issue I have been commenting on is that we cannot just assign Egyptian authorship due to Egyptian finding geographically.

I do not understand why you continue to take me to assert something else.

There are several famous works fryom Alexandria which were not written by Egyptyians.
Other cultures were not hundreds of miles away, but instead in Alexandria - indeed teaching in Alexndria.

I'm working on cultural assignment over time; it is a slow process.
Alexandria is quite on the list, so is Anatolia and possibly Athens.

Judea is not on my list much, because I hold that such would not have happened until post-diasppora, which would remove Judea properly.

However, this does not rule out Hebrew source for the wriing of at least 1 and possibly 2 texts.

There are no 1st c CE texts, without debate, in general from the Judean region, not that I would ever expect to find a Hebrew copy of any there.

If a Hebrew copy from that era were found, I would ventire that it would be found East of the Nile in the mountains of remote semetics.
 
First of all Jews were still speaking and writing the Hebrew language up to the end of the first century so it is certainly not like people writing latin in 2012 when no-one speaks or writes in latin.

Also, you will still not be able to explain why no Greek, Latin or Syric manuscripts of the Jesus story were found in Judea when you assume no-one wrote in the Hebrew language.

BZZZ WRONG.

Latin is still the official language of the Vatican in the form of Ecclesiastical Latin. The Tenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops in 2004 used Latin as a spoken language. In 2008 the Tridentine (Latin) Mass returned to England and Wales. Pope Benedict XVI spoke his resignation in Latin and there is a movement to get Latin as a regularly spoken language

Also many legal terms such as habius corpus ex factor and ex post facto are Latin terms.

So Latin while a dead language is still spoken and written in 2014.

Having two major revolts in less then 70 years is not going to do good things to the local records especially when said revolts result in most of the population either dead or sold into slavery. Also we know from Against Heresies that there were many denominations of Chrestianity most of which didn't survive and despite the dry climate unless they are protected in some way manuscripts don't tend to last long.

Even put away in a dry cave the DSS weren't in the best of condition and given the market for antiquities in the region we are lucky they are in as good a shape as they are. Then there is the issue of archiving what was found. Loosing 9 scrolls for 60 years is really bad but sadly a common problem with museums.

The fact that things like the Oxyrhynchus Papyri were found in what amounts to an ancient garbage dump shows the total disregard some people had for these works.

Jim Walker's review of Bart Ehrman's book is a good overview of the problems .
 
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Yeah, papyrus is terrible for preservation.
Microorganism will persist even in 24 to 42 degrees Celsius rather richly, and that the only real effective solution to nearly complete mitigation of such is a dampened ethyl alchohol solution.

Short of this, bury it somewhere dark and lacking much wind current, and inside of a container and wrapped.
And even this causes scores of issues.
It take considerable work, one page at a time over days (sometimes weeks), for recovery and restoration.

New scanning technologies are showing a possibility of greatly helping by scanning more diverse light ranges, but indeed, the medium of Papyrus is terrible - there are plenty such texts only preserved in a later Parchment, which was far more durable.
 
Ian, stop talking to me like I'm proposing HJ.

The only issue I have been commenting on is that we cannot just assign Egyptian authorship due to Egyptian finding geographically.

I do not understand why you continue to take me to assert something else.

There are several famous works fryom Alexandria which were not written by Egyptyians.
Other cultures were not hundreds of miles away, but instead in Alexandria - indeed teaching in Alexndria.

I'm working on cultural assignment over time; it is a slow process.
Alexandria is quite on the list, so is Anatolia and possibly Athens.

Judea is not on my list much, because I hold that such would not have happened until post-diasppora, which would remove Judea properly.

However, this does not rule out Hebrew source for the wriing of at least 1 and possibly 2 texts.

There are no 1st c CE texts, without debate, in general from the Judean region, not that I would ever expect to find a Hebrew copy of any there.

If a Hebrew copy from that era were found, I would ventire that it would be found East of the Nile in the mountains of remote semetics.

It cannot be ruled out that the Jesus story and cult started in Egypt.

The evidence supports the theory.

You seem not to understand that a theory MUST be developed from data or evidence.

1. Apologetic writers admitted that the Jesus story was TAUGHT in Egypt.

2. Apologetic writers IDENTIFIED Egyptians like Basilides, Cerinthus and Valentinus who knew stories of Jesus.

3. The authors of the Canonised Jesus stories were NOT Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

4. The author of gMark was most likely NOT a Jew.

5. The author of gMark most likely did not know the geography of the region.

6. The story of Jesus in gMark appears to be similar to stories in Egypt.

7. The Greek version of the Hebrew Bible which was FIRST compiled in Egypt was used in gMark.

8. No manuscript of the Jesus story in any language was found in Jerusalem or Galilee and dated to any time up to at least the 4th century.

9. The Dead Sea Scrolls do NOT mention any stories about Jesus of Nazareth.

10. Justin Martyr mentioned the Egyptians Basilides and Valentinus by NAME but never mentioned the names of the authors of the Jesus stories.

11. An Apologetic writer admitted that gMark [the earliest Jesus story] was preached in Egypt.

12. The so-called earliest Heretics were Egyptians like Basildes, Valentinus, and Cerinthus.

13. Based on Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius the Jews believer their Prophesied Messianic ruler was ALIVE c 66-70 CE and was fighting with them against the Romans.


The evidence suggest that the stories of Jesus were attributed to FAKE pre 70 CE authors to conceal the true authors and origin of the Jesus story.

1. Basilides----The earliest of the Alexandrian Gnostics; he was a native of Alexandria and flourished under the Emperors Adrian and Antoninus Pius, about 120-140.

2. Cerinthus, again, a man who was educated in the wisdom of the Egyptians....

3.Valentinus-- the best known and most influential of the Gnostic heretics, was born according to Epiphanius (Haer., XXXI) on the coast of Egypt.
 
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Dejudge,
I not once argued against Egypt as an authorship location.
I only questioned how, considering Alexandria and the paleography of the texts, we can attribute the authorship to Egyptians out of all the cultures involved in writing in Alexandria?

I even outlined how I used Alexandria quite explicitly in dispersion of the traditions (a post you could respond to).
 
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