Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

Red Baron Farms

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RBF has been making a slow crawl from Holistic grazing to rest rotation to modern land management. It should be noted that these three terms are not synonymous and are not actually interchangeable.
You are right. They are not completely interchangeable. Rest Rotation is a grazing system. It resembles HMPG only in the biophysical and only in the narrow range of biophysical that is found in Western North American rangelands receiving on average 5-15 inches of annual rainfall per year and being grazed by cattle. But HMPG involves much more than that. It is a management system whose principles can be applied world wide on any continent (except Antarctica) and in any brittle to non-brittle rangeland, with any species of grazer, by anyone, at any technology level or education level, and under a wide range of cultural and social systems, for a wide ranging set of goals that may or may not include actually eating livestock. So HMPG is far more advanced and flexible than RRG.

But since we are talking about The Western USA and Rangeland averaging 5 inches per year at the Bunker hill allotment that is being grazed by cattle, the two systems do overlap in this case.
 
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You are right. They are not completely interchangeable. Rest Rotation is a grazing system. It resembles HMPG only in the biophysical and only in the narrow range of biophysical that is found in Western North American rangelands receiving on average 5-15 inches of annual rainfall per year and being grazed by cattle. But HMPG involves much more than that. It is a management system whose principles can be applied world wide on any continent (except Antarctica) and in any brittle to non-brittle rangeland, with any species of grazer, by anyone, at any technology level or education level, and under a wide range of cultural and social systems, for a wide ranging set of goals that may or may not include actually eating livestock. So HMPG is far more advanced and flexible than RRG.

But since we are talking about The Western USA and Rangeland averaging 5 inches per year at the Bunker hill allotment that is being grazed by cattle, the two systems do overlap in this case.

My point was that as your arguments have been shot down one by one you have slowly moved away from your initial claim that the BLM should have offered HM. Start a thread on HM if that's what you want to talk about.
 
WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!
 
WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!

Jaysus. Are you this deliberately obtuse in person, too?

Run on down to Bunkerville. Cliven needs you.
 
BTW I am not here to discuss HM...

Well, you've done a damn fine of a job not discussing it.

:rolleyes:

HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!

Or, and I know this idea is really far-fetched, Bundy could have paid his fees for the last 20 years.

Nah, that's just silly.
 
WOW it's a revolt! Maybe you should join your own militia. I hear Bundy is recruiting. He seems well versed at throwing fits when people ignore his concerns. Maybe you could learn a few things from him! Or better yet maybe you could teach him even better?

BTW I am not here to discuss HM I simply replied to Biscuits post. HM is just one of many options available the BLM had to resolve this range war peacefully. Something apparently they decided to ignore too!

Hold your horses or cattle buddy! Who posted about HM first? Me or you?

You have never once mentioned any other option for resolving this other than HM, rest rotation, and now modern land management practices. It all here in this thread, plain for everyone to see.
 
For about 30 pages AFTER it became clear your pet agriculture theories were neither relevant nor interesting.
Actually the only reason it isn't interesting to you and doesn't seem relevant is because you are approaching this whole issue from a win/lose paradigm. You are not interested in conflict resolution, only screw you Bundy! HM was actually developed originally for this purpose of conflict resolution of these types of "range wars". Originally in Africa where "drum beating natives" were being driven off their parks, instead of cowboy ranchers being driven from the public rangeland, but the principles parallel each other.

The thing about it is this though. HM has already been used successfully in the role of conflict resolution here in the US facing the same issues as found in Nevada. But apparently the Nevada BLM didn't get that memo.

Here is a case study from Texas: The Planlt Texas Story : Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study

Same fight for the same reasons but a completely different outcome. Still not too late to resolve this conflict the same way in my opinion.
 
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Actually the only reason it isn't interesting to you and doesn't seem relevant is because you are approaching this whole issue from a win/lose paradigm. You are not interested in conflict resolution, only screw you Bundy! HM was actually developed originally for this purpose of conflict resolution of these types of "range wars". Originally in Africa where "drum beating natives" were being driven off their parks, instead of cowboy ranchers being driven from the public rangeland, but the principles parallel each other.

The thing about it is this though. HM has already been used successfully in the role of conflict resolution here in the US facing the same issues as found in Nevada. But apparently the Nevada BLM didn't get that memo.

Here is a case study from Texas: The Planlt Texas Story : Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study

Same fight for the same reasons but a completely different outcome. Still not too late to resolve this conflict the same way in my opinion.

But this is all fantasy. Land management had nothing to do with this case. You have repeatedly averred that it started over a disagreement in how to manage the herd and the resources. There is ZERO evidence of that. As evidence, all we have available are the filings and court records and Bundy's own statements. None of those point to any sort of dispute over the management of the land or what system of grazing to use. This is all just part of your monomania.

Proposing they "settle the dispute" with proper land management would require that we all turn Christian and forgive him his trespasses (pun intended). The miscreant broke the law for twenty years. He stole from the people who own/manage the land (in the name of We, The People). He stole from taxpayers who are footing the bill for his freeloading. Your proposal is like forgiving a ponzi scheme operator because the banking system and SEC need to be reformed. They are not necessarily related. Maybe banking and the stock market should be addressed/reformed. But that doesn't give Bernie M a free pass to rip off hundreds of millions of dollars.
 
Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
 
Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.

In my defense.... I was culled by the BLM (mods) in perhaps the laziest split in moderation history. There are nine pages of HM nonsense in the Cliven thread, and they just chose one of the latest posts (with no real statements as to what exactly is meant by Holistic Management nor any of the perhaps dubious studies and links). As "Science" threads go, this has to be just plain confusing to the science and math nerds who frequent this sub-forum. There's no there, there.

For anyone who actually cares about the topic, the meat of the discussion on Holistic Management is still in the Cliven Bundy thread.

ETA: I'm not one of those interested parties. I followed the debate because it was clogging up the thread that I was interested in. My post above was in yet another effort to get the "OP" to address the issues of that thread and not a made-up correlation.
 
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Now that we have this nice little thread to discuse holistic grazing, land management, and so on, maybe we should be discussing that instead of Clownven.

Since you seem to have strong feelings on the matter, maybe you can expound upon them and clarify what is and isn't good land management Red Barron.
Approximately 40% of the land surface of planet earth is under agricultural management.

Farming Claims Almost Half Earth's Land, New Maps Show

40% of the land surface is no minor amount, especially since most of the rest is mountains like the Himalayas, deserts like the Sahara, or other types of land not really suitable for agriculture. A pretty good portion of that land is what is termed "brittle" though. Land like that has low humidity and sporadic seasonal rainfall. Without irrigation its usefulness for agriculture is limited to grazing. However most grazing systems used today are an extension of the models developed in Europe, then supplemented by corn and soy etc... which is grown primarily in more arable land, then fed to livestock in CAFOs. I feel this model we have gotten ourselves stuck into is HUGELY damaging to the environment. The arid savanna is in decline, but the tall grass prairie is completely gone. It's bad for everything. There really isn't anything more destructive to the environment in the US than agriculture. Here is a pretty good brief history and analysis of partly why that is: NATURAL RESOURCES
CORNELL COOPERATIVE EXTENSION

Modern Agriculture: Its Effects on the Environment


Of course the subject is more complex than that. But it is a good starting point.

Not to be totally pessimistic about the whole thing, and realizing we all must eat, build houses, wear clothes, etc.... I do have VERY strong feelings that it is imperative we completely overhaul agriculture with regenerative models instead of the destructive models primarily used today. Nature can regenerate, but since we have destroyed the natural balance on 40% of the land worldwide, and we still need ever increasing food and fiber throughout this process of badly needed regeneration, that leaves only one option. We have to use biomimicry to tap into nature's regenerative and self healing characteristics in our agricultural models.

In simplified terms what I am saying is that we both can and must use agriculture to heal the land. The old ideas of using up the land with agriculture, then letting it go fallow till it recovers will no longer work. There isn't enough land and there are too many people. So what I consider "good land management" is any management system that regenerates the land and the wildlife and ecology at the same time as it produces food and fiber for our growing population. In my opinion it's really the only option we have left, short of killing off major %'s of population in wars, famines and plagues.

ETA: There is really nothing particularly special about Savory's holistic managed planned grazing, except that it is one of many new models of regenerative agriculture, and it is proven to work on land in brittle environments formerly thought to be impossible to regenerate and be useful for agriculture at the same time.
 
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No. Not confused in the least, but apparently you are, since you just repeated The Shrike's post #13


ETA Just to clarify, since you seem confused, I posted on the scientific thread here in the science forum already. I also posted in the political forum as well. Since Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution. But the idiots in the political forum want no conflict resolution discussion, they prefer a shootout. They became highly offended that I suggested a resolution could be negotiated that didn't involved armed use of force. So they split it off and placed here in the science forum devoid of any politics. Now that it is here, please don't mention anything political, or it will be off topic. And don't mention only Savory or it will be merged, and don't do any actual critical thinking too deeply, or you will come up with a conspiracy theory and it will be moved to that forum. And since there is no conspiracy, it won't last there either. It simply is not proper to think outside the box when almost everyone else is inside the box. :boxedin:
 
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No. Not confused in the least, but apparently you are, since you just repeated The Shrike's post #13


ETA Just to clarify, since you seem confused, I posted on the scientific thread here in the science forum already. I also posted in the political forum as well. Since Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution. But the idiots in the political forum want no conflict resolution discussion, they prefer a shootout. They became highly offended that I suggested a resolution could be negotiated that didn't involved armed use of force. So they split it off and placed here in the science forum devoid of any politics. Now that it is here, please don't mention anything political, or it will be off topic. And don't mention only Savory or it will be merged, and don't do any actual critical thinking too deeply, or you will come up with a conspiracy theory and it will be moved to that forum. And since there is no conspiracy, it won't last there either. It simply is not proper to think outside the box when almost everyone else is inside the box. :boxedin:

That's a bald faced lie about why the threads were split and I think you know it.

The threads were split because your Holistic Grazing proselytizing was unrelated to the Bundy conflict. You are, quite possibly, the only human being on the planet who thinks Holistic Grazing could have done anything to prevent or alleviate the situation. Bundy's own words were quoted, blasting your theories to atoms. At that point your own story about what you'd claimed started changing.

If you want to sway anyone, lying about the circumstances under which the threads were split is a poor start.
 
That's a bald faced lie about why the threads were split and I think you know it.

The threads were split because your Holistic Grazing proselytizing was unrelated to the Bundy conflict. You are, quite possibly, the only human being on the planet who thinks Holistic Grazing could have done anything to prevent or alleviate the situation. Bundy's own words were quoted, blasting your theories to atoms. At that point your own story about what you'd claimed started changing.

If you want to sway anyone, lying about the circumstances under which the threads were split is a poor start.
Off topic, irrelevant and not true. Now why would you carry over a strawman from a cut throat political forum to a science forum and use that strawman to call me a liar? It is meaningless. Yes Holistic management can be used for conflict resolution, but they don't want to hear about it or discuss it in the political forum. Period. They hate Bundy too much to consider anything but hard labor in jail and/or bloodshed. So be it. And politics is off topic here. But apparently Mudcat wants to discuss good land management. Which is a much broader subject that doesn't need to be connected to any particular person, politics or management system. That's why I made the post #12. Please refrain from your off topic personal attacks and muddled thinking and remember where you are now, JREF science forum. Thanks in advance.
 
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Yes, that is an accurate description of the forcible injection of Holistic Land Management into the Bundy thread. Thank you.
See? In your anger and haste you just proved my point at least with regards to yourself. You resent the forcible injection of Holistic management into the Bundy thread. Now go look at the post made 16th May 2014 08:19 PM #8 that was split off to here. See the link? "Using the power of Holistic Management in Conflict Resolution, A case study" You resent that forcible injection of Holistic management for conflict resolution. Isn't that true?

Well I think it most certainly is a conflict and it most certainly is about grazing, so I thought that conflict resolution of a grazing conflict could be discussed on the political thread. Apparently not because it was split. So be it. I didn't complain. Sometimes when people get so emotionally involved in a political conflict they don't want a resolution. They only want blood. I can accept that. It is human nature.

But this is the science forum. Politics are off the table. Your strawmen are meaningless. Your personal attacks only make you look petty. Please remember where you are. If you wish to discuss good land management options here, I would be happy to discuss them with you as gentlemen. Please bring science citations to the discussion as well. Thanks in advance.
 
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