Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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There doesn't seem to be much blood between the body and the door.


I quite agree. Even if Vibio has turned up a case featuring no physical evidence of the presence of two perps, we are still talking about something unusual. Something unlikely (impossible say some).

The problem is that while they didn't find any of Patrick Latko's clothes with blood on it, it doesn't mean that he didn't leave a trail to himself a mile wide. They found a piece of a knife with the victim's blood on it in the defendants storage locker, not to mention a video of him at it 37 minutes after the 911 call. They also have threatening texts.

In contrast, with Amanda and Raffaele, there is no trail. No threatening emails or text messages, no victim saying their name in a recorded call minutes before their death, no knife with the victim's BLOOD on it.

I'm all in favor of making the guilty pay for their crimes. But I'm much more in favor of a transparent judicial system where guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

There is no reason for Amanda and her new boyfriend to kill Meredith. So why are we going on with this facade??
 
He said that the March 2014 hearing in Turin was to see if Mignini would be set over for trial. That hearing happened, and the charge in question was dismissed. There was one other more minor charge which was not dealt with, and it was just allowed to lapse.

Is there any equivalent in modern history where something like this occurred with a US prosecutor. I suspect even if not imprisoned, he/she would be fired and disbarred.
 
I quite agree. Even if Vibio has turned up a case featuring no physical evidence of the presence of two perps, we are still talking about something unusual. Something unlikely (impossible say some).

But there has to be some evidence...something real. You can't even consider the interrogations as they are INADMISSIBLE. So forget the statements. That's a legal requirement...not that I think they are worth anything anyway.

There is no motive...You can't really consider Rudy's testimony as reliable..just self serving. There is no evidence of them being unbalanced, and the only evidence are two very suspect DNA electropherograms that haven't ever been confirmed.

I know we aren't supposed to say this, but I think anyone who believes that the case against them has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt is off their rockers and simply are not honest with themselves.
 
Duke Lacrosse Players

Is there any equivalent in modern history where something like this occurred with a US prosecutor. I suspect even if not imprisoned, he/she would be fired and disbarred.

I've heard people refer to the Duke lacrosse players rape case. I think the prosecutor went to jail over it.
 
I've heard people refer to the Duke lacrosse players rape case. I think the prosecutor went to jail over it.

Mike Nifong, the prosecutor was disbarred, forced out of office and served 1 day in jail, paid a $500 fine for contempt of court.
 
What about this from Amanda's translation of part of the motivations? He at least addresses it here and goes on to assert that selective or not, someone cleaned up:

"it has been much discussed, especially by the defense of the defendants, whether a “selective” clean-up of the crime scene is possible by the authors of the crime. this possibility was denied on the basis of the empirical impossibility of a “naked eye” to identify and select the singular traces, often invisible, to destroy. it was also excluded that someone in the cottage of via della pergola, on the night between november 1st and 2nd, 2007, after having committed the murder of meredith kercher, could “selectively clean” the traces left by the authors of the crime, destroying all of the traces of the defendants in question, and leaving at the crime scene all of those traces that would have lead investigators to rudy hermann guede.

the affirmation, if apparently agreeable theoretically, must be correlated with the case in question, of which there are certain peculiarities.

it is peculiar, for example, that no traces of amanda marie knox were found in the cottage of via della pergola if not those which are refer-able to the murder – nor of raffaele sollecito. for the latter the explanation may be simple, that he had only just begun his sentimental relationship with amanda marie knox, and so had his patronage of her house, but regarding amanda marie knox the explanation is not simple at all, because she had been living there since the previous september.

the lack of biological traces of amanda marie knox at the cottage, if not those refer-able to the murder, is a circumstance that is surely singular and at the same time not easily explainable, if not with conjecture. but there are other examples, all of which have the same vulnus: to likely be conjecture.

the court retains that in fulfilling its duty, it must limit itself to a reasoning that is founded upon objective facts; upon that which emerged procedurally that are the most objective possible.
an argument characteristically objective that emerged procedurally was evidence that, after the murder of meredith kercher, selective or not, there was a clean-up of the traces of the murder, and a maneuvering of the body of poor meredith into a position (between the armoire and the wall of the room and covered by a duvet) that certainly doesn’t correspond with the position in which the girl died, at the end of the aggressive phase. someone spent much time within the cottage on the night between november 1st and 2nd, 2007, altering the crime scene and destroying numerous traces. the evidence provided by the scientific police proves this incontestable truth, which the court’s reasoning must take into consideration."


ETA (added quotes around Nencini's motivation copied from AK's website)

In other words he can't explain it, except to say that since they are "procedurally" guilty to begin with, the cleanup must have happened because otherwise he'd not be able to explain. It is the same reasoning Massei used to justify saying there must have been a clean in the hall, or else he'd be at a loss to explain.
 
In other words he can't explain it, except to say that since they are "procedurally" guilty to begin with, the cleanup must have happened because otherwise he'd not be able to explain. It is the same reasoning Massei used to justify saying there must have been a clean in the hall, or else he'd be at a loss to explain.

Reverse logic. Bizarre to say the least in judicial logic. NOT that the facts prove the ruling of guilt, but that the ruling proves the facts. huh???
 
Yes, you have and I find it unfair that you should be badgered to do so again. I suggest the pro-innocence posters play fair here. This is a serious point. Meredith herself left no footprints AFAIK. Why is it not possible that Raffaele and Amanda simply positioned themselves, not necessarily intentionally, that they left no foot prints?

They would only leave fingerprints if they handled something in the room, which doesn't seem necessary. That leaves hair, clothing fibres (I ask for the Nth time - does Stef not do fibre analysis?) saliva, blood and DNA. Steve Moore (and Locard) says it was not possible to leave none of these but Vibio has a case on which that is what happened (he says - I have not looked). Let's deal with this fairly. There is a search function.

To hell with Locard and Occam.

In Vibio's case they didn't need DNA as they had sooooo much other evidence. There is a difference between not leaving any DNA and the CSI not finding it. In this case no one's DNA was found in the room besides Meredith's and Rudy's that was identified and made public. Certainly some other DNA was in the room some place.

If Amanda's fingerprint was found left with Meredith's blood DNA would be unnecessary and if they didn't find it, so what. The same with Vibio's murderer. In Vibio's case it would seem the lack of blood found on his clothes and shoes was a bigger deal. This is also a big deal on this case.

It is possible and therefore probable that Koko or his buddy were part of the caper that went bad and they left no DNA and since their clothing was never checked no blood was found on them. (Grinder's Law - if no one looks for blood no blood will be found)
 
Reverse logic. Bizarre to say the least in judicial logic. NOT that the facts prove the ruling of guilt, but that the ruling proves the facts. huh???

Read what Anode posted two or three times, and yes, that's what it says. The ruling proves the facts.
 
Fair point. But if we don't have the original clip from the camera itself, why would you assume the image must have been "resized/re compressed"?

Why would you assume that the TV show had transposed their image, thus distorting it, rather than cropping, or simply reducing file size and reducing the image proportionately?

I think looking at the original clip from the link, the frame aspect ratio is most certainly not 4:3.

I posted follow up, after you got to this post, and you may have already followed up as well, but I'm curious about your take on this. What I can tell you is I did not alter any image, all I did was copy paste. DanO specifically altered the image to "correct" it's proportions.

I say it must be resized/recompressed just because that is standard operating procedure before posting media to the web. This is a subject in which I specialize. It is not standard to distort the aspect ratio, but my students do it all the time before they learn better.

I understand that Dan O. Has some other stills from the same camera, and that the aspect ratios are different between the ones that you have the ones that Dan has. Ergo, some of them have been distorted. I have not examined them closely myself. I was just floating the idea that the difference did not have to be deliberate, but could be the result of a commonly committed error.

If you like, I can take a look at the image sets as well and offer a third or fourth opinion about the possibility of distortion. :)
 
To hell with Locard and Occam.

In Vibio's case they didn't need DNA as they had sooooo much other evidence. There is a difference between not leaving any DNA and the CSI not finding it. In this case no one's DNA was found in the room besides Meredith's and Rudy's that was identified and made public. Certainly some other DNA was in the room some place.

If Amanda's fingerprint was found left with Meredith's blood DNA would be unnecessary and if they didn't find it, so what. The same with Vibio's murderer. In Vibio's case it would seem the lack of blood found on his clothes and shoes was a bigger deal. This is also a big deal on this case.

It is possible and therefore probable that Koko or his buddy were part of the caper that went bad and they left no DNA and since their clothing was never checked no blood was found on them. (Grinder's Law - if no one looks for blood no blood will be found)

There is a difference between DNA being left behind and finding it. I agree. Every single DNA sample that was taken the results were presented. Either it was a match for a person or it was "unidentified". My understanding is that they didn't take samples from Laura or Filomena so if they found their DNA it would be classified as unidentified.

The problem with Vibio's case (Latko) is not that Locard's law didn't occur, but that they don't know if they have the clothes that Latko wore than night and in fact could have and probably did disposed of or run through his washing machine a few dozen times. The fact that the defendant in that case chose to dispose of the floor mats of a car that didn't even belong to him is pretty strong evidence that Locard's law was in full force the evening that his friend was murdered.

Locard was pretty evident in the fact that his victim's BLOOD was found on a piece of a knife that was found inside Latko's storage locker.

I'm trying to find out how soon after the murder was Latko arrested. I bet he was a suspect fairly quickly..but still I bet it was a couple of days later.
 
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The Price of Silence vs. Race to Injustice

I've heard people refer to the Duke lacrosse players rape case. I think the prosecutor went to jail over it.
Ken Anderson went to jail in the Morton case IIRC. Yet it is rare for a prosecutor to be disciplined for misconduct. Two books on the Duke lacrosse case, "Until Proven Innocent" and "Race to Injustice," both have some very useful information on the subject of prosecutorial misconduct and the need for further reform. Remarkably, the newest book on the DL case (2014), "The Price of Silence," calls what Nifong did mistakes and disputes the conclusion that Mr. Nifong broke various rules.
 
giving good lab technique the finger

Suzanna Ryan wrote, "DNA can transfer from an evidence item to the gloved hand of an analyst and onto a different item of evidence11."
11. Poy A and van Oorschot RAH. Beware; gloves and equipment used during the examination of exhibits are potential vectors for transfer of DNA-containing materials.
 

Acc. to Luca Cheli, Nencini grudgingly gives up on the idea of a selective cleaning. It's because in a rare moment of connecting the dots, Nencini could not fathom a reason why someone would selectively clean to frame one person, and then at interrogation accuse another.

Nencini makes no mention of the dynamics of accomplishing such a selective clean-up, which is clearly impossible.

Cheli also brings up the dreaded lamp! You can read that one for yourself.

But in the main, Cheli criticises Nencini's report for its sloppiness. It brings up points as if they will be made use of later, then that particular point is nowhere to be found again in the 337 pages.

For instance, Nencini makes reference to it being suspicious that Knox knew details of what was in Meredith's room, when she was not in a position to see those details for herself. Then that point is dropped..... as Cheli says, apparently someone got to Nencini laterthat Knox heard those details from Luca Altieri, and unfortunately Nencini then simply forgot to delete the suspicious sounding lines early in his report.

The Nencini report is worse than even the wildest innocenter could imagine. There is yet to be justice for Meredith Kercher as long as these keystone judges are allowed to persecute/prosecute Sollecito and Knox.
 
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