Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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He did post his cite. It was the case of Patrick Latko. But of course it DOESN'T really apply. Patrick Latko was convicted on significant circumstantial evidence including a rocky relationship with one of the victims. One of the victims actually called 911 and identified the killer on the call. They also found the broken handle of the knife used in the storage facility. Also, Latko was seen in a video 37 minutes after the 911 call going into a storage facility wearing one set of clothes and coming out wearing another set. Also Latko had also disposed of the floor mats of the borrowed car he drove that night. The defense argued that they couldn't find any blood on his shoes and there would have been blood given that Latko murdered two people that night. But there is no proof that the shoes he was wearing when arrested were the shoes he wore that night.

Is there anything in this cite which suggests that someone managed to clean two out of three DNA signatures from the scene, effectively framing that third person with the DNA and handprint evidence which remained?

ETA - I need to apologize to Vibeo. I erred in saying that Machiavelli once said that Amanda and her mother talked to each other in "mafia code".

What Machiavelli actually posted was that the "I was there" statement was uttered, "mafia style" to communicate the opposite meaning.

Machiavelli to my knowledge only claimed "mafia code" once in relation to all this. That reference was to explain why all of Seattle... repeat ALL OF SEATTLE managed to be silent about Amanda Knox's participation in an April Fools' prank of a pretend-break-in at a friend's place. The perpetrators of the prank quickly 'fessed up, and the guy who it was done too was not amused.

But Machiavelli invoked the mafia code of Omertà to explain why all of Seattle remained quiet about this crime spree Knox participated in, prior to going to Perugia.

Many apologies to Vibeo for misleading him/her.
 
So here is the evidence used to convict Patrick Latko. The case that Vibio insists proves that you can kill someone without blood evidence. Which actually isn't true. What is true, is that they didn't find any DNA evidence of Patrick Latko at the scene. So it is possible that Rudy could be just the unlucky suspect who left his own DNA at the scene.

However, it is not true that there wasn't significant blood evidence and other incriminating evidence. In fact there is as much on Patrick Latko as there was on Rudy.

1. The evidence consisted of numerous text messages Latko had sent to friends including one which stated that if he finds out who was criticizing him to his former girlfriend, “they’re a dead man.” Anything similar from Amanda or Raffaele? NO.

2. It included a knife that belonged to Latko which tested positive for Ryan Patterson’s blood, Anything like that true for Amanda or Raffaele? NO.

3. Latko’s cell phone, which was found in the Patterson’s home following the murders. (Latko didn't live there) Anything like that true for Amanda or Raffaele? NO.

4. It included surveillance footage of Latko changing his clothes little more than one half-hour after the murders had occurred, and a 911 call which the State submitted the victim, Ryan Patterson, is crying out during the attack on him and his mother, “Pat, I didn’t do…”.

5. The borrowed car that Patrick Latko used that night was missing the floor mats? Anything like that true for Amanda or Raffaele? NO.

This is what some people think demonstrates that it is also just to convict Amanda and Raffaele of murder because others have been convicted on less evidence? Seriously Vibio?
 
Last I had read, MIgnini's conviction was dismissed in florence, over an issue of venue? Or was it that the same prosecutor he had wiretapped, was prosecuting him, so it was a conflict of interest? I do seem to remember it was a technicality of some sort, but not a dismissal on the merits.

I think I remember, the charges were allowed to expire, but can be re-filed by the prosecutor in Turin, where the case must be re-filed, if it will be.

No idea why they would not re-file if he committed the crimes, and guilt is actually the basis for charges being filed in Italy.

I do believe Mignini is the key to this matter.

At any rate, I don't believe Mignini was ever actually cleared of wrongdoing, just that he was able to delay prosecution based on a technicality. And the charges may or may not be refiled.

I did see a post from Andrea Vogt though, where she said Spezi still faced charges. Is a civil action from Mignini what she was referring to?

This is one area where Machiavelli had more accurate information than any of us.

I'd been told last October that Mignini had been set over for trial in March 2014. Machiavelli disputed that claim by me and he turned out to be correct.

He said that the March 2014 hearing in Turin was to see if Mignini would be set over for trial. That hearing happened, and the charge in question was dismissed. There was one other more minor charge which was not dealt with, and it was just allowed to lapse.
 
finger marks

Nencini made the claim that Amanda's finger marks are on Meredith's body. That is unlike the Latko case.
 
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Is there anything in this cite which suggests that someone managed to clean two out of three DNA signatures from the scene, effectively framing that third person with the DNA and handprint evidence which remained?

Where does Nencini claim that someone managed to clean two out of three DNA signatures from the scene?
 
Ok, I see it now, you were right, my goof.

I didn't know the original raw CCTV footage was available to look at anywhere, so thanks for the link. I was just going off what the Italian TV show had posted, and had nothing to compare it to, no point of original reference. So, my mistake.


Thanks for redeeming yourself. Do you think that GroundReport article will get corrected now?

I don't think we have the full CCTV video. Bits of it that were used in court are available but I have not heard of anyone having the bulk of it.

As I have said before, the first thing to do to identify this person would be to find the owners of the cars that subsequently leave the car park. The police should have done this anyhow just to question if they had seen or heard anything that night.


As the issue though, is not whether the woman is Obese, but whether she is Amanda, I'm posting another frame clip I grabbed off the same TV program's site, showing a split screen view of the CCTV lady's and Amanda's faces.

Any ideas on whether Amanda's face is also widened?, Or ideas on how to normalize and compare the two women? (I still think the bulging cheeks is a point of dissimilarity).

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_67903537505294d0a3.jpg[/qimg]


The lighting is different which makes direct comparisons difficult. We should be able to use the same technique to determine if the close side view image is also streatched. The comparison image comes from some random news photographer.

You have another tool on your Mac that does automatic facial recognition. If you train Faces in iPhoto with some images of Amanda and several general population images, it will do a bunch of calculations and tell you if there is a similarity. Unfortunately it won't tell you where it found the match or how close it was.
 
So here is the evidence used to convict Patrick Latko. The case that Vibio insists proves that you can kill someone without blood evidence. Which actually isn't true. What is true, is that they didn't find any DNA evidence of Patrick Latko at the scene. So it is possible that Rudy could be just the unlucky suspect who left his own DNA at the scene.

Fine, thank you. That is my answer to Anode.

As far as the rest of the case goes, it has no comparison to the Knox case. Nor did I ever claim that it does. And it has nothing to do with Anodes question.
 
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No, you're wrong.

I have posted the link twice.

Yes, you have and I find it unfair that you should be badgered to do so again. I suggest the pro-innocence posters play fair here. This is a serious point. Meredith herself left no footprints AFAIK. Why is it not possible that Raffaele and Amanda simply positioned themselves, not necessarily intentionally, that they left no foot prints?

They would only leave fingerprints if they handled something in the room, which doesn't seem necessary. That leaves hair, clothing fibres (I ask for the Nth time - does Stef not do fibre analysis?) saliva, blood and DNA. Steve Moore (and Locard) says it was not possible to leave none of these but Vibio has a case on which that is what happened (he says - I have not looked). Let's deal with this fairly. There is a search function.
 
Is there anything in this cite which suggests that someone managed to clean two out of three DNA signatures from the scene, effectively framing that third person with the DNA and handprint evidence which remained?
No of course not Bill. But I do believe it is possible that Amanda and Raffaele could have been involved in the murder and not left their DNA at the crime scene, or at least it wasn't found. That is definitely curious but not totally exculpatory. No, it is the room in general and the lack of bloody footprint in a room that was perfect for leaving bloody footprints. There was almost a dozen shoe prints that conclusively point to Rudy, add that to the palm print in Meredith's blood and the DNA samples and the total void of evidence tying Amanda and Raffaele to this crime.

Patrick Latko left a significant trail of evidence pointing to him and only him. The police didn't find some innocent couple to also go after. He had the motive to kill Ryan Patterson and there was significant incriminating evidence. The same cannot really be said about Amanda or Raffaele.
 
He did post his cite. It was the case of Patrick Latko. But of course it DOESN'T really apply. Patrick Latko was convicted on significant circumstantial evidence including a rocky relationship with one of the victims. One of the victims actually called 911 and identified the killer on the call. They also found the broken handle of the knife used in the storage facility. Also, Latko was seen in a video 37 minutes after the 911 call going into a storage facility wearing one set of clothes and coming out wearing another set. Also Latko had also disposed of the floor mats of the borrowed car he drove that night. The defense argued that they couldn't find any blood on his shoes and there would have been blood given that Latko murdered two people that night. But there is no proof that the shoes he was wearing when arrested were the shoes he wore that night.

Do you have a good article which I could read up on it?
 
Yes, you have and I find it unfair that you should be badgered to do so again. I suggest the pro-innocence posters play fair here. This is a serious point. Meredith herself left no footprints AFAIK. Why is it not possible that Raffaele and Amanda simply positioned themselves, not necessarily intentionally, that they left no foot prints?

They would only leave fingerprints if they handled something in the room, which doesn't seem necessary. That leaves hair, clothing fibres (I ask for the Nth time - does Stef not do fibre analysis?) saliva, blood and DNA. Steve Moore (and Locard) says it was not possible to leave none of these but Vibio has a case on which that is what happened (he says - I have not looked). Let's deal with this fairly. There is a search function.

Very different anglo. Meredith didn't leave footprints because she was never standing in her own blood. Her blood sprayed all over the room and anyone who was in that room would have had to walk out across the blood.

Keep in mind for example that the Latko murder scene was carpeted, as opposed to the tile floor of the cottage. Each murder scene has to be viewed in its own perspective. There is NOT a single piece of physical evidence that ties Amanda or Raffaele to that murder room. In contrast, about a dozen of Rudy's footprints tie him to the murder, 5 samples of DNA and 1 palm print as well as his own testimony.

In contrast there is one disputed DNA sample from Raffaele which shows serious signs of contamination and NOTHING from Amanda.
 
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The interesting thing to me is that even though the woman's image was widened to make her look much heavier set than Amanda, confirmation bias kicked in with many people who were certain she was a dead ringer for Amanda.

In either image, her face definitely looks a bit chipmunkish.
Cody
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chipmonkish, exactly.
 
Very different anglo. Meredith didn't leave footprints because she was never standing in her own blood. Her blood sprayed all over the room and anyone who was in that room would have had to walk out across the blood.
There doesn't seem to be much blood between the body and the door.

Keep in mind for example that the Latko murder scene was carpeted, as opposed to the tile floor of the cottage. Each murder scene has to be viewed in its own perspective. There is NOT a single piece of physical evidence that ties Amanda or Raffaele to that murder room. In contrast, about a dozen of Rudy's footprints tie him to the murder, 5 samples of DNA and 1 palm print as well as his own testimony.

In contrast there is one disputed DNA sample from Raffaele which shows serious signs of contamination and NOTHING from Amanda.
I quite agree. Even if Vibio has turned up a case featuring no physical evidence of the presence of two perps, we are still talking about something unusual. Something unlikely (impossible say some).
 
He doesn't.

What about this from Amanda's translation of part of the motivations? He at least addresses it here and goes on to assert that selective or not, someone cleaned up:

"it has been much discussed, especially by the defense of the defendants, whether a “selective” clean-up of the crime scene is possible by the authors of the crime. this possibility was denied on the basis of the empirical impossibility of a “naked eye” to identify and select the singular traces, often invisible, to destroy. it was also excluded that someone in the cottage of via della pergola, on the night between november 1st and 2nd, 2007, after having committed the murder of meredith kercher, could “selectively clean” the traces left by the authors of the crime, destroying all of the traces of the defendants in question, and leaving at the crime scene all of those traces that would have lead investigators to rudy hermann guede.

the affirmation, if apparently agreeable theoretically, must be correlated with the case in question, of which there are certain peculiarities.

it is peculiar, for example, that no traces of amanda marie knox were found in the cottage of via della pergola if not those which are refer-able to the murder – nor of raffaele sollecito. for the latter the explanation may be simple, that he had only just begun his sentimental relationship with amanda marie knox, and so had his patronage of her house, but regarding amanda marie knox the explanation is not simple at all, because she had been living there since the previous september.

the lack of biological traces of amanda marie knox at the cottage, if not those refer-able to the murder, is a circumstance that is surely singular and at the same time not easily explainable, if not with conjecture. but there are other examples, all of which have the same vulnus: to likely be conjecture.

the court retains that in fulfilling its duty, it must limit itself to a reasoning that is founded upon objective facts; upon that which emerged procedurally that are the most objective possible.
an argument characteristically objective that emerged procedurally was evidence that, after the murder of meredith kercher, selective or not, there was a clean-up of the traces of the murder, and a maneuvering of the body of poor meredith into a position (between the armoire and the wall of the room and covered by a duvet) that certainly doesn’t correspond with the position in which the girl died, at the end of the aggressive phase. someone spent much time within the cottage on the night between november 1st and 2nd, 2007, altering the crime scene and destroying numerous traces. the evidence provided by the scientific police proves this incontestable truth, which the court’s reasoning must take into consideration."


ETA (added quotes around Nencini's motivation copied from AK's website)
 
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This is one area where Machiavelli had more accurate information than any of us.

I'd been told last October that Mignini had been set over for trial in March 2014. Machiavelli disputed that claim by me and he turned out to be correct.

He said that the March 2014 hearing in Turin was to see if Mignini would be set over for trial. That hearing happened, and the charge in question was dismissed. There was one other more minor charge which was not dealt with, and it was just allowed to lapse.

Bummer. Amazing how it was so illegal that he was sentenced to 14 months in prison, and then they just let it slide, and he keeps his official position.
 
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