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Merged Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with federal

So, umm... You're suggesting that the government should have told Bundy what to do and punished him if he refused or otherwise failed to do what they said? Isn't that exactly how this mess began?
No Just offer him the option. The goal being that BLM decided the range in question needed improving. As Biscuit pointed out from BLMs summary, "Decisions leading to improved range conditions can also have a positive and stabilizing effect on ranch operations." CAN being the key word here. Not always. The decision can sometimes hurt the rancher, as was the case with the decision on the Bunker Hill allotment. But when there is an option where BOTH the rancher and the ecosystem benefits, certainly that option should be made available. If a positive decision was made by BLM as an option and Bundy did not want to implement it, then it's on him and I would have no criticism of BLM's actions. But he should have been given the option.

ETA: For example: Instead of simply saying reduce the stock to 150 (which is highly unlikely to benefit that range anyway) He should have been given 3 options.
1) reduce the stock to 150
2) Implement a modern range improving grazing system and here is a BLM publication on how to do it. The stocking rate will likely be higher than 150, but it is adaptive to local conditions. The publication details how this can be done. However, we will be monitoring the range conditions. Your range fees will be helping to cover part of the monitoring.
3) If you don't choose either of the two above options we will find another leaseholder who will improve that rangeland.

Notice that in this case, BLM still maintains authority over the allotment. So if Bundy really does stubbornly refuse due to some obscure and warped political view that the BLM really doesn't have authority, as many of his statements now seem to indicate, remove him immediately. But I suspect that Bundy's views became radicalized in direct proportion to the degree in which he was marginalized and ordered to do something deleterious to his ranching operation. Give him reasonable options, and likely this hatred of the BLM would not have festered and likely there would be no range war now.
 
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No Just offer him the option. The goal being that BLM decided the range in question needed improving. As Biscuit pointed out from BLMs summary, "Decisions leading to improved range conditions can also have a positive and stabilizing effect on ranch operations." CAN being the key word here. Not always. The decision can sometimes hurt the rancher, as was the case with the decision on the Bunker Hill allotment. But when there is an option where BOTH the rancher and the ecosystem benefits, certainly that option should be made available. If a positive decision was made and Bundy did not want to implement it, then it's on him and I would have no criticism of BLM's actions. But he should have been given the option.

Nonsense. Why would they go out and educate a man who is 20 years behind on his fees about a 50 year old pipe dream land management system that was debunked 30 years ago?

Mods, can we get the "Holistic Land Management is full of win and BLM is run by poopieheads!" tangent split off into it's own thread? It doesn't have any real relevance to the criminal actions of domestic terrorist Cliven Bundy.
 
Nonsense. Why would they go out and educate a man who is 20 years behind on his fees about a 50 year old pipe dream land management system that was debunked 30 years ago?
He wasn't behind on his fees back then. He stopped paying in protest. Civil disobedience. And you are wrong about the so called "debunking".
 
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He wasn't behind on his fees back then. He stopped paying in protest. Civil disobedience.

You have yet to provide any evidence to support that assertion. Until such time as you provide some actual evidence I will instead consider his own words a better indication of his motives than your fan fiction about him.

This "debate" has gotten very circular. I ask you to provide evidence to support your claims about the motives of Cliven Bundy, you repeat your assertions but add no actual evidence to support them. Do you have any actual facts to back up your claims, or just hand-wringing about the BLM?

And you are wrong about the so called "debunking".

BWHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

You're adorable.

Nilsson, C., and B. Malm Renöfält. 2008. Linking flow regime and water quality in rivers: a challenge to adaptive catchment management. Ecology and Society 13(2): 18.

Briske, D. D. "Origin, Persistence, and Resolution of the Rotational Grazing Debate: Integrating Human Dimensions Into Rangeland Research". Rangeland Ecol Manage 64:325–334. Retrieved 6 April 2013.

D. D. Briske, J. D. Derner, J. R. Brown, S. D. Fuhlendorf, W. R. Teague, K. M. Havstad, R. L. Gillen, A. J. Ash, W. D. Willms, (2008) Rotational Grazing on Rangelands: Reconciliation of Perception and Experimental Evidence. Rangeland Ecology & Management: January 2008, Vol. 61, No. 1, pp. 3-17.

All Sizzle and No Steak
Why Allan Savory’s TED talk about how cattle can reverse global warming is dead wrong.

Allan Savory’s livestock hypothesis hinges on what he calls “holistic management and planned grazing.”


Cows Against Climate Change: The Dodgy Science Behind the TED Talk


Alan Savory gives a popular and very misleading TED talk
Holistic grazing guru pieces together false assumptions to produce ineffective but popular recommendations on climate change-


A message from Zimbabwe: regarding McPherson, Savory, Grasslands, Climate, Hope

“Savory’s ideas about employing livestock to fix carbon have been widely and thoroughly debunked by scientists. Using a nonnative species and a source of methane emissions to remove grasses and other plants in the name of carbon sequestration makes no sense.”
 
It turns out Holistic Land Management is little more than 1960's era "Yeah BEEF!" propaganda. It was crafted to be the solution cattle ranchers WANTED to see work, not the solution that actually WOULD work.

While its rationalizations and excuses have been updated to incorporate claims of climate change mitigation, there remains no science to support it and a growing body of evidence debunking it.

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/r...le-wont-fix-landscapes-or-climate-change.html

a new study by western range ecologist John Carter and four coauthors in the peer-reviewed International Journal of Biodiversity says that the claims made by Holistic Management advocates don't actually pan out in the real world, a charge that's sure to offer opponents of desert grazing abundant rhetorical material to fling at its supporters.

The most accurate description of Holistic Land Management requires comparing it to bovine excrement, something I can't do succinctly on this forum without violating the TOS regarding profanity.
 
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

International Journal of Biodiversity
Volume 2014 (2014), Article ID 163431, 10 pages

Abstract

Over 3 billion hectares of lands worldwide are grazed by livestock, with a majority suffering degradation in ecological condition. Losses in plant productivity, biodiversity of plant and animal communities, and carbon storage are occurring as a result of livestock grazing. Holistic management (HM) has been proposed as a means of restoring degraded deserts and grasslands and reversing climate change. The fundamental approach of this system is based on frequently rotating livestock herds to mimic native ungulates reacting to predators in order to break up biological soil crusts and trample plants and soils to promote restoration. This review could find no peer-reviewed studies that show that this management approach is superior to conventional grazing systems in outcomes. Any claims of success due to HM are likely due to the management aspects of goal setting, monitoring, and adapting to meet goals, not the ecological principles embodied in HM. Ecologically, the application of HM principles of trampling and intensive foraging are as detrimental to plants, soils, water storage, and plant productivity as are conventional grazing systems. Contrary to claims made that HM will reverse climate change, the scientific evidence is that global greenhouse gas emissions are vastly larger than the capacity of worldwide grasslands and deserts to store the carbon emitted each year.

No wonder the BLM didn't offer it as an option.
 
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You quote propaganda blogs that contain all sorts of fallacies. I have posted actual ranches that prove you are wrong like this: Bud Purdy - Idaho Ranching and Conservation Pioneer That is an actual example of a real life ranch where the BLM worked with the rancher to the benefit of both the ecosystem AND the livestock operation.
Gus Hormay, a grazing specialist for the U.S. Forest Service,
was instrumental in convincing ranchers to try rest-rotation
grazing. The Purdys were among the early converts.

Your arguments are like the Monty Python black Knight scene. "Your arms off! No it's not!" You can post propaganda saying it is "debunked" till hell freezes over, but the actual in the field evidence is that it works. I suppose you don't believe the earth is round either? Or that Man landed on the moon? Or that if Man was meant to fly God would have given him wings?

There is a point when you just need to admit you are wrong. We were all wrong. Time to get over it and work with the new scientific advancements.
 
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You quote propaganda blogs that contain all sorts of fallacies.

I mentioned actual research, you respond with anecdotes.

I accept your concession.

There is a point when you just need to admit you are wrong. We were all wrong. Time to get over it and work with the new scientific advancements.

12lby5U.jpg


All the research shows your pet land management theory to be garbage. Why do you find this so hard to accept? Do you realize responding to actual studies and research with "Well I know a guy and it worked for him!" is the same logic used by alt-med practitioners who make claims like curing cancer by drinking bleach?
 
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I mentioned actual research, you respond with anecdotes.

I accept your concession.
BS You posted propaganda, projections and hypotheticals, I posted actual evidence. But If you need a scientific rebuttal

DEFICIENCIES IN THE BRISKE ESTIMATES OF CARBON SEQUESTRATION ON RANGELANDS

By Richard Teague
Professor, Ecosystem Science and Management, Texas A&M University
Senior Scientist of the Borlaug Institute
Associate Resident Director, Texas A&M AgriLife Research
P.O. Box 1658, Vernon, TX 76385
E-mail: [email protected]

Most research related to grazing management, and thus carbon sequestration potential, on rangelands cited by Briske et al. [1,2,3] has been short-term and has examined the issue from a reductionist viewpoint that ignores the critical influences of scale, and does not use adaptive multi-paddock grazing to achieve sound animal production, resource improvement, and socio-economic goals under constantly varying conditions on rangelands [4]. Superior results in terms of range ecosystem improvement, productivity, soil carbon and fertility, water holding capacity and profitability have been regularly obtained by ranchers using multiple paddocks per herd with short periods of grazing, long recovery periods and adaptively changing recovery periods and other management elements as conditions change [4,5].

The references cited by Briske et al. [1,2,3] concentrate only on differences in rangeland productivity without meaningfully taking into account negative impacts on the environment that can lead to misleading extrapolations. These conclusions cloud, rather than enhance, knowledge about sustainable grazing management and are not relevant to practical grazing management. Multi-paddock grazing research from Australia, Southern Africa, Argentina and USA [4,5] that was: i) conducted at the scale of ranching operations, ii) adaptively managed as conditions changed to achieve desired ecosystem and production goals, and iii) measured parameters indicating change in ecosystem function, have arrived at the opposite conclusion. These published data were omitted in the reviews by Briske et al. [1,2,3].

Many ranchers around the world have used adaptive, multi-paddock grazing management to restore ecosystem services and productivity on degraded rangelands in areas with less than 10 and up to 80 inches of annual precipitation. Many of these ranches in drier areas were initially so bare of vegetation that they would have been classified as desertified. By ignoring such successful restoration examples, Briske and other scientists with the same limited experience are grossly underestimating the potential of management to increase carbon sequestration on the rangelands of the world. Consequently, the inferences and conclusions made by Briske et al. [1,2,3] do not represent the subject adequately because conclusions have been selectively chosen so as to exclude published data showing superior results at commercial ranch scale from adaptively managed multi-paddock grazing. The studies referenced underestimate positive benefits to soil and ecosystem function, so they almost certainly underestimate the potential of rangelands to sequester carbon. The accumulated body of small-scale grazing systems research promoted by Dr. Briske and partners needs to be evaluated in light of the discrepancies with larger-scale studies, and perhaps should be largely set aside as being of little relevance to any discussion of grazing distribution on commercial ranches. The majority of conservation awards to ranchers operating on native rangelands have overwhelmingly gone to ranchers using multi-paddock grazing of one form or another. These ranchers operate in extensive, heterogeneous landscapes, where they are confronted with the adverse effects of uneven grazing distribution, and their collective ecological and management knowledge using multi paddock grazing indicating the necessity of using adaptive, multi-paddock grazing management to achieve superior outcomes. The articles in the Rangelands October 2013 issue, a journal of the Society for Rangeland Management, support this.
In calculating the potential of rangelands to sequester carbon to offset global climate change and improve ecosystem function we cannot ignore the superior outcomes achieved by conservation award winning ranchers, those who have restored ecosystem function and productivity on degraded rangeland using adaptively managed multi-paddock, time-controlled grazing, or published research that does not refute the results achieved on these ranches.

References

1. Briske, D., Derner, J., Brown, J., Fuhlendorf, S., Teague, R., Gillen, B., Ash, A., Havstad, K., Willms, W., 2008. Benefits of Rotational Grazing on Rangelands: An Evaluation of the Experimental Evidence. Rangeland Ecology and Management 61, 3-17. http://www.srmjournals.org/doi/abs/10.2111/06-159R.1

2. Briske, D.D., Sayre, N.F., Huntsinger, L., Fernandez-Gimenez, M., Budd, B., Derner, J.D., 2011. Origin, persistence, and resolution of the rotational grazing debate: integrating human dimensions into rangeland research. Rangeland Ecology and Management 64, 325e334.

3. David D. Briske, Brandon T. Bestelmeyer, Joel R. Brown, Samuel D. Fuhlendorf, and H. Wayne Polley, 2013. The Savory Method Can Not Green Deserts or Reverse Climate Change. A response to the Allan Savory TED video. Rangelands 35(5):72-74. 2013
doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.2111/RANGELANDS-D-13-00044.1

4. Richard Teague, Fred Provenza, Urs Kreuter, Tim Steffens, Matt Barnes, 2013. Multi-paddock grazing on rangelands: Why the perceptual dichotomy between research results and rancher experience? Journal of Environmental Management, Volume 128, 15 October 2013, Pages 699-717, ISSN 0301-4797, http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jenvman.2013.05.064.

5. Teague, W.R., Dowhower, S.L., Baker, S.A., Haile, N., DeLaune, P.B., Conover, D.M., 2011. Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie. Agriculture Ecosystems and Environment
I especially recommend you read 4. Why the perceptual dichotomy between research results and rancher experience? Journal of Environmental Management

PS This isn't about carbon sequestration. That is a side effect that is a hotly debated topic right now, but off topic to this thread. But I posted this rebuttal just to show how wrong your sources were. The point I am making about the BLM is that they could have worked with Bundy to implement a beneficial solution as they did with Bud Purdy, but they didn't give him that option.
 
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While an adorable essay, it was based upon research that was older than some of the material I cited. If you go back far enough you can find research claiming leeches can treat heart disease by adjusting your humors. Scince progresses, and your rejection of newer data is a sad sight to behold.

As for the dichotomy between researchers and ranchers, that's explained in the abstract I quoted.

Any claims of success due to HM are likely due to the management aspects of goal setting, monitoring, and adapting to meet goals, not the ecological principles embodied in HM

Your arguments hinge upon ignoring more recent research.

The point I am making about the BLM is that they could have worked with Bundy to implement a beneficial solution as they did with Bud Purdy, but they didn't give him that option.

And it wouldn't have changed a damn thing about Bundy's actions if they had. Your fan fiction about Bundy's motivation is contradicted by Bundy himself.

Why do you keep lying about Bundy's motives, especially when quotes from Bundy himself have been posted that contradict you? Why should I take anything you say seriously when you lie so transparently about Bundy's motivations?
 
Why do you keep lying about Bundy's motives, especially when quotes from Bundy himself have been posted that contradict you? Why should I take anything you say seriously when you lie so transparently about Bundy's motivations?
Please quit making that strawman and then accusing me of lying. I made a claim that the BLM was motivated by ecological concerns. I also am motivated by ecological concerns. I made no such claim that Bundy was. Bundy is reacting to a BLM decision that is deleterious to his ranching operation. Your strawman is lying, not me. Accuse the strawman you yourself created, not me. Please leave me out of it. I have asked you several times to stop doing this.
 
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I mentioned actual research, you respond with anecdotes.

I accept your concession.



[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/12lby5U.jpg[/qimg]

All the research shows your pet land management theory to be garbage. Why do you find this so hard to accept? Do you realize responding to actual studies and research with "Well I know a guy and it worked for him!" is the same logic used by alt-med practitioners who make claims like curing cancer by drinking bleach?

I have been posting evidence for the case against HM for 10 or more pages now, if not longer. Everything that questions HM is propaganda and everything that proves it is anecdotes. RBF doesn't want to hear it. The solution to all of life's problems is HM and for some reason HM defies study and is unexplainable by science. It is the one thing in this world that is beyond the grasp of knowledge and understanding.

The larger point that RBF misses is that there is no reason to think that Bundy would have gone along with it given the option.
 
Please quit making that strawman and then accusing me of lying. I made a claim that the BLM was motivated by ecological concerns. I also am motivated by ecological concerns. I made no such claim that Bundy was. Bundy is reacting to a BLM decision that is deleterious to his ranching operation. Your strawman is lying, not me. Accuse the strawman you yourself created, not me. Please leave me out of it. I have asked you several times to stop doing this.
The bolded is completely false. From the beginning, Bundy's claim is that the BLM has no authority over the land.
 
Please quit making that strawman and then accusing me of lying. I made a claim that the BLM was motivated by ecological concerns. I also am motivated by ecological concerns. I made no such claim that Bundy was. Bundy is reacting to a BLM decision that is deleterious to his ranching operation. Your strawman is lying, not me. Accuse the strawman you yourself created, not me. Please leave me out of it. I have asked you several times to stop doing this.

You keep rambling on about what you think the BLM could have done with regard to Bundy and in so doing are implying that it might have changed his behavior in some way. Now you have the gal to claim you haven't been trying to make claims about Bundy's motives?

Keep in mind, posts like this illustrate the claims you've made.

You've hijacked this thread to attack the BLM because they're not promoting your pet pseudoscience. You've crammed your anti-BLM agenda into a discussion about a domestic terrorist as he builds a private army because, frankly, it's probably the only way you could get anyone to read your screeds about a BS land management ideology that has no science to support it.

You introduced to me Holistic Land Management, and thanks to you I'm now going to oppose it at every turn. Thank you for showing me something that needs to be ground into dust, like the humors theory of medicine and the belief that the Earth is flat. If your agenda was to turn people against holistic Land Management then you succeeded nicely.
 
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I have been posting evidence for the case against HM for 10 or more pages now, if not longer. Everything that questions HM is propaganda and everything that proves it is anecdotes. RBF doesn't want to hear it. The solution to all of life's problems is HM and for some reason HM defies study and is unexplainable by science. It is the one thing in this world that is beyond the grasp of knowledge and understanding.

The larger point that RBF misses is that there is no reason to think that Bundy would have gone along with it given the option.

Given the nature of the defenses offered of HM, it's clear the following equation holds true:

HM == BS
 
ETA: For example: Instead of simply saying reduce the stock to 150 (which is highly unlikely to benefit that range anyway) He should have been given 3 options.

Assertion without evidence.


1) reduce the stock to 150

This is what happened and we end where we are today.


2) Implement a modern range improving grazing system and here is a BLM publication on how to do it. The stocking rate will likely be higher than 150, but it is adaptive to local conditions. The publication details how this can be done. However, we will be monitoring the range conditions. Your range fees will be helping to cover part of the monitoring.

You forgot to mention that Bundy will need to purchase more cattle and pay the grazing fee for each new cattle. He will need to pay for the material, construction and maintenance of new fencing to keep cattle on specific lots. This new fencing will interfere with all the other wild animals on the land and inhibit the use of recreational users. He will need to hire staff to monitor and move the new larger herd. He will need to pay for improvements to allow the cattle access to water when they are sequestered on lands with out current access. He will need to pay for improvements to deliver supplemental feed and for the feed itself when the cattle are on lots without adequate feed. He will have to turn his ranching operation over the whim of the federal government.


3) If you don't choose either of the two above options we will find another leaseholder who will improve that rangeland.

Bundy refuses to remove his cattle and we are where we are today.
 
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You keep rambling on about what you think the BLM could have done with regard to Bundy and in so doing are implying that it might have changed his behavior in some way. Now you have the gal to claim you haven't been trying to make claims about Bundy's motives?

Keep in mind, posts like this illustrate the claims you've made.

You've hijacked this thread to attack the BLM because they're not promoting your pet pseudoscience. You've crammed your anti-BLM agenda into a discussion about a domestic terrorist as he builds a private army because, frankly, it's probably the only way you could get anyone to read your screeds about a BS land management ideology that has no science to support it.

You introduced to me Holistic Land Management, and thanks to you I'm now going to oppose it at every turn. Thank you for showing me something that needs to be ground into dust, like the humors theory of medicine and the belief that the Earth is flat. If your agenda was to turn people against holistic Land Management then you succeeded nicely.

This. Especially the highlighted.
 

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